Current (2023) recommendations for trustworthy ebike battery vendors

[UtahPete]

Chinese manufacturers (Alixpress, UPP, etc.) have been known to substitute cells having the same supposed 18650 or 21700 capacity as that of say a legiimate LG 21700 4800mAh cell or a popular Samsung cell. However, the Ah capacity and MCD amp rating is below par compared to a genuine A-grade LG or Samsung cell.

As such sub-par (counterfeit?) cells may not even have a genuine LG or Samsung label wrap. Such cells may have cost the manufacturer no more than $2-3 ea in bulk quantity. They may suffice for casual/moderate ebiking, but not for those interested in sustained performance (power/speed) for one's overall riding enjoyment.

ES has always been known for DIY quality performance builds with sustained endurance for power, speed and cycle life. Thus UPP, AliExpress and other less expensive Chinese ebike batteries are NOT recommended by knowledgeable and experienced battery DIY builders at Endless Sphere (ebikes.com).

Have you opened up a few of these Chinese batteries to verify this, or is this second-hand info?

 

[UtahPete]

Highest failure and warranty claim rates we saw selling battery packs. Careful!

Compared to what?

 

[UtahPete]

Call me hopelessly optimistic, but I'd still like to believe there are more than two decent battery retailers worldwide!

I'm with you.

 

[UtahPete]

Making it $300 AUD.

Don't get me wrong. I generally agree with the sentiment that paying a lot once is better than paying twice for an inferior product. But shipping from USA and Canada to Australia sucks serious donkey balls.

What brands are sold locally in Australia by reputable sellers? What quality bikes are there in Australia and who makes their batteries? A little research may prove invaluable in your situation.

 

[amberwolf]

Have you opened up a few of these Chinese batteries to verify this, or is this second-hand info?

If you're curious, you can look around at the various battery troubleshooting threads over the years, especially the "I just got this great deal, but it doesn't work right..." or "too good to be true" broken battery threads, etc. Or the various analyses and reports (via video or photo/article) of the many counterfeit, fake, and recycled garbage cells out there.

The last is especially popular with the TGTBT pack sellers with 1million Ah packs the size of a paperback book , where they recycle scrapped dead and damaged batteries of many kinds of cells into "new" packs with no testing, no matching of even cell chemistries/brands/models/etc. Most of those don't even try to hide the garbage cells under fake shrinkwrap labels like the Ultrafire and Trustfire and other *fire cellmakers do, becuase they've heatshrunk the whole mess into a battery pack you have to open up to check on, and they wouldn't honor a warranty even if they had one (many of them are flybynight and sell a bunch of stuff and disappear, probably starting up under new names somewhere else).

My favorites are ones that have been made of tiny batteries (sometimes even just capacitors) installed into cylindrical cells (usually 18650) and the rest of the weight made up with flour or some other material. No, it doesn't make any sense (but it must cost less to do that than buy real cells to resell)...but it's been done by various unscrupulous people around the world, for more than the decade-and-a-half that I've been here.

 

[UtahPete]

If you're curious, you can look around at the various battery troubleshooting threads over the years, especially the "I just got this great deal, but it doesn't work right..." or "too good to be true" broken battery threads, etc. Or the various analyses and reports (via video or photo/article) of the many counterfeit, fake, and recycled garbage cells out there.

The last is especially popular with the TGTBT pack sellers with 1million Ah packs the size of a paperback book , where they recycle scrapped dead and damaged batteries of many kinds of cells into "new" packs with no testing, no matching of even cell chemistries/brands/models/etc. Most of those don't even try to hide the garbage cells under fake shrinkwrap labels like the Ultrafire and Trustfire and other *fire cellmakers do, becuase they've heatshrunk the whole mess into a battery pack you have to open up to check on, and they wouldn't honor a warranty even if they had one (many of them are flybynight and sell a bunch of stuff and disappear, probably starting up under new names somewhere else).

My favorites are ones that have been made of tiny batteries (sometimes even just capacitors) installed into cylindrical cells (usually 18650) and the rest of the weight made up with flour or some other material. No, it doesn't make any sense (but it must cost less to do that than buy real cells to resell)...but it's been done by various unscrupulous people around the world, for more than the decade-and-a-half that I've been here.

Is this first-hand knowledge, is all I'm asking.

 

[amberwolf]

Whether that specific person's (that you asked the question of) is or not, I don't know.

But the posts here and elsewhere are by those who actually have the items in question in their hands, doing hte testing, documentation, troubleshooting, etc., so...I don't see how it could not be first-hand?

 

[offGridDownUnder]

As per title, this has obviously been discussed a lot over the years, but what are current suggestions for trustworthy high-power batteries, ready to plug and play? Not too concerned about form factor, I can work with most things as it is for a large cargo bike. I've had only positive experiences with Grin and EM3EV, but shipping is a killer from Grin sadly and EM3EV don't seem to have anything in a 21700 cell type at this stage. I'm wondering if any decent new players have emerged.

Good batteries for ebikes are available in Australia from Cap Rouge who are located in country and subject to our consumer laws.

 

[UtahPete]

Whether that specific person's (that you asked the question of) is or not, I don't know.

But the posts here and elsewhere are by those who actually have the items in question in their hands, doing hte testing, documentation, troubleshooting, etc., so...I don't see how it could not be first-hand?

"Trust, but verify" is my motto. I'm asking you and the others who have on this thread, told horror stories about batteries bought on AliExpress whether those are first-hand experiences they are describing, or stories they have read in other posts here and elsewhere.

it would be nice to know of other battery and cell suppliers with good reputations. Those billions of cells and millions of batteries in the marketplace can't all be questionable. Where do ebike manufacturers buy their batteries, for instance? If the only ones we can trust are those selling 48v, 15ah batteries for $700 and more, this hobby would have cratered long ago, I think.

Thanks.

 

[offGridDownUnder]

Those billions of cells and millions of batteries in the marketplace can't all be questionable.

A cell from a name brand manufacturer which is large enough to be a target and suffer if their name is sullied by bad product is your best bet. Samsung, Sony, etc. make good cells - other posts here will provide lists of 'good names'.

Fascinating Nature Fact: If there is food lying around, something will eat it. Translated to this arena that means that unscrupulous (and also ignorant) people will try to make money selling cells and batteries. They may not know what they are doing (to make good batteries) and they may not know what they are doing (to sell dangerous cells and batteries). Anyone can be an idiot, and that may not be immediately self-correcting.

As in any market, watch out for your own self.

• Large-reputable-name-brand cells.
• Seller with a stable good reputation over time.
• Seller that can be sued, arrested, or otherwise held to account.
• Watch out for fakes and liars - if I can't sue them or call the authorities on them, I hesitate, cause I don't know.
• Your own knowledge applied.

Best of fortune with it. My (Cap Rouge, btw) batteries haven't given me any problems yet. The more (of the above) guardrails you take away, the closer you are to the edge.

Don't charge a battery without watching it, and DON'T leave a battery on the charger while you sleep - the noxious gases will kill you before you wake up to throw it outside. We had a fellow from SES (State Emergency Services for you foreigners) working with us, and after I posted at work about the dangers of Lithium batteries he replied that he had lost count of the fires he'd responded to that were started by a battery left on the charger. After that, everyone went home and unplugged the chargers in their sheds.

 

[Bush mechanic]

(sometimes even just capacitors) installed into cylindrical cells (usually 18650) and the rest of the weight made up with flour or some other material

This would almost be funny if it wasn't for the poor bastard who will lose the next 3 months of their life trying to get a refund...

Good batteries for ebikes are available in Australia from Cap Rouge who are located in country and subject to our consumer laws.

Thanks, I will check these guys out!

 

[marvin78]

Good batteries for ebikes are available in Australia from Cap Rouge who are located in country and subject to our consumer laws.

I was shocked at what was considered good batteries at a good price but then I realized I needed to do a .6 conversion.

Still expensive but I guess if they are known for quality and warranty ..

edit: just to add something more constructive maybe -> when talking about 'don't charge unattended' -> I've added a simple timer to my charger, so that after x time mains will be shut down regardless.

That way I can feel a little more relaxed about potentially falling asleep of 'forgetting' about a charger I left plugged in. I know I can claim I'm always vigilant and things never get away from me, but that would be a rather risky lie. I do make sure to let the charger run long enough attended to properly balance the pack, since that's the danger if you keep it on a timer and it keeps shutting off before balancing is done.

 

[Bush mechanic]

Cap Rouge

Loving the look of the 50G 21700 cells, have you or anyone got any thoughts or real world experience with these?

52V 15Ah / 780Wh Downtube Samsung eBike Battery CPPOLF52-15

52 Volts 15 AH 780 Wh 2A, 3A or 4A Battery Charger Options ST3 Charging Port Dimensions: L 367mm - W 92mm - H 98mm Samsung 50G 5000mah 21700 Cells High quality, long life battery built using 21700 cells This battery is one of Cap Rouge specialties. We are the first Australian reputable company...

caprouge.com.au

14s3p 5000mAh Samsung cells, I didn't even realise these existed. Very nice indeed.

 

[UtahPete]

A cell from a name brand manufacturer which is large enough to be a target and suffer if their name is sullied by bad product is your best bet. Samsung, Sony, etc. make good cells - other posts here will provide lists of 'good names'.

I think that's the whole purpose of this thread, which is to know which brands and suppliers are trustworthy.

 

[Bush mechanic]

50G, yes I do like this a lot. Haven't really kept up much over the last couple of years, this is awesome.

Test/review of Samsung INR21700-50G 5000mAh (Green)

Very cool they are using these.

 

[tomjasz]

Have you opened up a few of these Chinese batteries to verify this, or is this second-hand info?

Yes I have.

 

[tomjasz]

The most trustworthy builder would be YOURSELF!

THAT is an accident waiting to happen. Yes it can be done and done well but let's not present it as a remedial task.

 

[tomjasz]

Compared to what?

To experiences with 7 other manufacturers.

 

[tomjasz]

Agreed.

UPP certainly has tempting prices though...wonder if their LG and Tesla 21700 cells are genuine?

From what Ive seen IF you specify a particular cell and manufacturer they will use it. But typically that changes the pricing. I have an old 29E and a 35E pack from UPP. I believe them to be genuine cells. It's the build quality and high failure rate and PIA warranty service that pushed me away.

 

[offGridDownUnder]

real world experience with these?

I have a 960Wh 48V battery from Cap Rouge with Samsung cells.

Experience is I charge it and use it to power my trike and nothing else happens. Which is really what I was hoping for.

I realise you probably meant using the cells...

 

[calab]

THAT is an accident waiting to happen. Yes it can be done and done well but let's not present it as a remedial task.

I am not saying that its an easy task, just saying with enough study time.......

 

[Bush mechanic]

I realise you probably meant using the cells...

No, good feedback either way, really appreciate it. Also seems they supply all the cells individually for DIY .

 

[tomjasz]

So th

Chinese manufacturers (Alixpress, UPP, etc.)

So n00bs don't get confused, Aliexpress is not a manufacturer of batteries. It's a site where honest and dishonest Chinese companies list and sell their wares.

I brought a 20s 6p 21700 Samsung 40t cells ??? BT BMS triangle pack from bicycle motor works and only got 19ah for Samsung 40t 6p 4,000mah cell or 24ah that's how much the battery should get on paper but I've only got 19 ampere hour at the most at 60 or 40 amp controller. So that battery has 100 amp BMS and the cells can do 180 amps on paper 6p. Good luck For 1,1640 USD and sent it back because wouldn't fully charge only charge to 81 volts with regular BMS he replaced a parallel group. So I sent it back to Pennsylvania from Southern California and he put a Bluetooth BMS on and it works good but I only get 19 maybe 17 amp your hour
Made in the USA
I had money but and I was lazy and I didn't know what spot water to get what a waste of money. As I have two other 80 volt batteries and a 52 and a 48 I don't even have that many bike set up.
Batteries don't ask me about buying batteries.
Sherddtrddttttttt. !!!!!!!!

His name is Matthew Bzura.
The you find the five ampere hours you forgot to put in my battery for $1,100 USD

Ha! the same fella bought a BBSHD controller and upon receiving it changed all connectors. After which it didn't function. What do you do? Why complain to PayPal and get your whole order refunded. Which business on the planet sells a part that the buyer has modified and replaces under warranty? And stings the seller. NUTS and why I finally ended my 7 year stint of selling and supporting BBSxx motors, batteries, and kits. I have aquantences that like his battery. but I have a bad taste in my mouth when considering them a battery source.

 

[999zip999]

Matthew Bzura you owe me five ampere hours at 72 volts.
So when I talk to him I found out what a n small man and I'm not talking about size I'm talking about character and he didn't understand batteries in just was learning on my dime so it cost me money for him to experiment 1,200 USD because when I talk to him I knew he didn't quite understand quite what he was doing he was very confused and angry at trying to get 20x6.
I think he should refund me how much for 5 ah so at the very minimum he owes me $50 USD or one of his baby 72 hour batteries. He had that chip on his shoulder attitude like someone from the East Coast like Rocky or something or James Cagney.. you know that East Coast ship on the shoulder attitude I think they're born that way. I know in his small brain he's going to act like I did something wrong and to justify it to his very nice wife that I've talked to many times.
Yeah I agree Matthew Bzura from bicycle motor works doesn't back up as product and he's not an honorable man.
I'm sorry the battery 72 volt 24 ah was beyond his ability at the time.
But he's learning on my dime. Of course you can justify it in his mind. Punk.

 

[uhmwpolyethylene]

Was thinking of going 72v with the BBSHD. Demoed at 52v and the power for that is fine on flats at around 800w or full throttle uphill. Was thinking though how fun it would be to have the throttle on demand for crazy high power just to pull jumps or do quick acceleration bumps, I dunno if that would tax the motor too much ramping up from 800/1000 to 2-5k. But yeah what are the highest quality 72v cells I can get my hands on? Does the motor even like higher voltages than that? Also is 72v more "energy dense" for longer range at lower power. And what is the smallest performance size that won't be too weak, like 14ah?