CYC PHOTON

[sysrq]

i have build several ebikes and i have bought two new marin rift zone for conversion . i have ridden them with tsdz2 with great pleasure . i ride on mountain foot trails so no special bike trails and i really know how to beat bike and motor with serious mtb ... i believe i know what i need and what i want . as i said - i'd rather save more money and buy bafang integrated than spend so much money to another conversion . period . there is no way cyc gets close to any integrated motor apart from power and speed which i don't need as i do mtb climbing and downhill not flat racing . bafang motors are easily serviceable and way more robust than cyc . not comparable i'd say ...
i was hoping photon was better tsdz2 with a little higher price tag . when it's price is 5x tsdz2 and delivery time is 8-10 weeks and same for spare parts (proprietary chainring wtf) i see no point in being screwed in that way ... sorry .

For occasional long distance commuting to work (160km round trip with prolonged inclines ranging from 9% to 17%) Photon probably would be better than BBS02 to keep the speed from dropping below 20 or 25km/h regardless of environment. BBS02 might be used for inclines only since during strong headwinds the cadence only PAS could enable constant ghost pedalling which will reduce the force of pumping effect of calf muscle contractions thus reducing the blood flow in feet and will drain the battery faster. Sence TSDZ2 is incapable of keeping the speeds from dropping below 20km/h on inclines then current CYC Photon seems like an only option.
ToSeven DM-01 or DM-02 might be another option but there aren't any teardown pictures published yet. Lingbei is discontinued due to problems with torque sensor and according to reports it was programmed to be excessively similar to cadence sensor.

 

[Wapous]

I often read posts based on guesswork without any real use of such a motor.
I prefer technical reviews after use.
To compare the different motors existing on the market, you must have used them.
For example, if I compare the TSDZ2 motor that my wife and I used for four years with the Photon motor that we've only been using for two weeks, I can safely say that the ease of installation and the build quality of the Photon engine exceeds the TSDZ2 engine. It's obvious!
What I can say after these two weeks of use is that the product meets my expectations exactly.

1- The PAS system is very stable and responds intelligently and efficiently. We are still fine-tuning the adjustments with the CYC Ride control app.
2- The alignment of the chain between the chainring and the cassette is perfect.
3- The Q-Factor for our 68mm BB is beyond reproach.
4- No chainring slack.
5- The noise is low.

As we use this system for commuting and on paved roads, I cannot comment on mountain use.
Regarding the price I have to wait for the use of the Photon motor over several months to know its reliability. If the reliability is there, then the price is worth it.
CYC engineers will surely make corrections over time. This is normal for any new product.
I can say that this product currently meets my expectations and is a real pleasure to use.

 

[PeteCress]

Can anybody who actually has a Photon confirm or deny that it accepts the de-facto standard 104BCD chain rings?

Either way, your Photon model?

I would note that, although my TSDZ2 did not accept 104BCD rings out of the box, I was able to buy an adapter for cheap on Amazon that gives me access to a drawer full of 104BCD rings from my cycling days.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B07Z4HY3Q4/ref=ya_aw_od_pi?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

[PeteCress]

... our TSDZ2 motors which have served us well for 20,000 km each.

Two questions:

• What prompted the replacement? TSDZs just worn out?
• Did you ever replace the TSDZ's blue drive gears or sprague clutches? If so, how often?

 

[PeteCress]

Really ? If so, it's no better than a TSDZ2 with cooling mod.
The Photon is still interesting because...

As a tall TSDZ user, another Photon feature that catches my eye is the ISIS crank compatibility.

I would like very much to try my 180's (left over from my MTB days) on a mid-drive.

 

[Mongo]

Can anybody who actually has a Photon confirm or deny that it accepts the de-facto standard 104BCD chain rings?

The Photon doesn't currently accept any B.C.D. standard rings - there's no adapter at this time. I don't think it would be possible to hit the tight chain line that the Photon manages with its proprietary 34T and 38T rings (47.3mm on a 68mm English BB).

Either way, your Photon model?

The build is documented here in my case, a 68-83mm 38T Photon that replaced a Bafang BBS02B.

 

[PeteCress]

..the CYC chainring design, as it offers a much better chain line and a smaller (34T) chain ring than is possible via the Bafang and Tongsheng methods.

FWIW, I am running a 28-tooth ring on my Tongsgeng.

The answer is a 104 BCD adapter available for cheap on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B07Z4HY3Q4?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title

 

[raylo32]

Is that on a MTB for trail riding? 28T really limits your top pedaling speed on the road. I have a 42T on my TSDZ2 that works well for faster road riding.

FWIW, I am running a 28-tooth ring on my Tongsgeng.

The answer is a 104 BCD adapter available for cheap on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B07Z4HY3Q4?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title

 

[hindesite]

FWIW, I am running a 28-tooth ring on my Tongsgeng.

Why? What does 28t get you? Or do you have to use 28t because you can't use the lower gears on the cassette due to the munted chainline?

I run a 32t/34t with 50t on the rear, and while that is fine with an acoustic bike, it is close to being quicker to get off and walk , and with the Photon, it can climb almost anything.

With the availability of 52t and 520% range cassettes, maybe it is time to reconsider just how small the front chainring needs to be? We have more options now.

 

[Wapous]

Two questions:

• What prompted the replacement? TSDZs just worn out?
• Did you ever replace the TSDZ's blue drive gears or sprague clutches? If so, how often?

For both TSDZ2 motors:
I have never replaced a blue gear but 3 times its one way bearing.
The sprague cluch has been replaced at least four times.
Several bearings have been replaced.
The torque sensor assembly has been replaced 3 times.
Frequent cleaning and lubrication.

The TSDZ2 motor is not expensive and gives good performance.
But its maintenance is frequent. At 20,000 km it was time to renew. We thought about buying a bike with a Bosch system. But when we saw this new Photon motor, we decided to install it on our beloved bikes hoping that its reliability will be greater than that of the TSDZ2. In short, a bit tired of maintaining two TSDZ2 engines. But we really liked the experience.

 

[PeteCress]

Why? What does 28t get you?

28 gets me a stump-pulling low gear.

That said, I get spun out in top gear at 18-19 mph.

But the motor is on a tadpole trike and not a bike and the trike has it's limitations - which make a really-low Low and not much of a High reasonable for a semi-cripple like me:

• It's seriously heavy with the motor, battery, and all the junk I carry. 104# last time I weighed it, so it sucks pretty badly at climbing... but I ride it with electric assist as little as possible and I'm older than dirt - and the ultra-low 1st gear is easier on what's left of my knees.
• IMHO, the thing lacks a bicycle's stability, so I don't really feel safe on it at much over 15 mph.
  • Steering is by turning instead of leaning. Try turning your bike's front wheel at anything faster than a slow walk and you will get the idea.
  • The suspension is minimalist: no shocks and less than inch of elastomer travel. I think bad things could happen hitting a bump or pothole at any kind of speed without the built-in suspension of standing on the pedals. No jumping obstacles...

If I could ride a bike, this thing would be on Craig's List tomorrow... but I can't and it beats hell out of lying on the couch all day.

 

[Mongo]

28 gets me a stump-pulling low gear.

That said, I get spun out in top gear at 18-19 mph.

But the motor is on a tadpole trike and not a bike and the trike has it's limitations - which make a really-low Low and not much of a High reasonable for a semi-cripple like me:

• It's seriously heavy with the motor, battery, and all the junk I carry. 104# last time I weighed it, so it sucks pretty badly at climbing... but I ride it with electric assist as little as possible and I'm older than dirt - and the ultra-low 1st gear is easier on what's left of my knees.
• IMHO, the thing lacks a bicycle's stability, so I don't really feel safe on it at much over 15 mph.
  • Steering is by turning instead of leaning. Try turning your bike's front wheel at anything faster than a slow walk and you will get the idea.
  • The suspension is minimalist: no shocks and less than inch of elastomer travel. I think bad things could happen hitting a bump or pothole at any kind of speed without the built-in suspension of standing on the pedals. No jumping obstacles...

If I could ride a bike, this thing would be on Craig's List tomorrow... but I can't and it beats hell out of lying on the couch all day.

Congrats on getting out & about. Funny, you don't look old as dirt - must be the sunglasses.

I mostly errand ride on narrow roads - not good trike conditions.

We need more real world owner miles to be sure, but I'm optimistic about the Photon motor longevity.

 

[raylo32]

I mostly still ride my pedal bikes but I got a TSDZ2 about 2 or 3 years ago to convert an old hard tail I had laying around. Changed it to OSF along the way. The internals are still all original except for my copper cooling mod. But then I don't have more then maybe 500 miles on it. But as I get older and slower I can see the time coming when I will want to use an e-bike more. Hope the CYC Photon or similar with torque sensor proves to be a more reliable and lower maintenance option than TSDZ2. I may get one soon to try... or to perhaps convert my GF's hardtail, so I can get her out to ride with me more.

The TSDZ2 motor is not expensive and gives good performance.
But its maintenance is frequent.

 

[PeteCress]

....you don't look old as dirt - must be the sunglasses

The avatar photo was taken long, long ago and far, far away.

If I can make it to July, I'll be 82

 

[Mongo]

The avatar photo was taken long, long ago and far, far away.

If I can make it to July, I'll be 82

I've a ways to go age-wise to catch up, though I feel like I'm there already. I'd love to try a trike and/or recumbent, powered only, but I'd only be able to ride "one-track" bikes most of the time. My rural roads are narrow, with no usable shoulder - just ditches.

True pedal-assist riding (versus throttling along) should gain back some leg strength, and I've lost 90 lbs so far, with another 90 to go.

Bolting together bikes has been a lifelong hobby for me - some are hopefully applied thought experiments, such as this AMTRAKed, then the GAP Trail & C&O Canal, Pittsburgh to D.C. tour purpose-built bike:



I've got a few years to prove the bike & motor reliability and improve my riding abilities before taking a stab at the ride.

 

[hindesite]

Well, here's a video that Photon owners will not want to see:

Turn the sound up a bit, in real life it is very obvious. Sounds like controller failure to me.

(Edit - to clarify this is my bike and video :-( )

Anyone else experienced this with any CYC (or other) product?

From the description:

CYC Photon with light use (never over 750W and usually down at 200-500W max, and with 80% torque limit) and 190km of distance has just today started making a very loud and obvious noise when running. This noise only occurs when the motor is powered, and is most obvious when starting but continues and is somewhat masked by the gear noise when running. At rest, when the system is powered on, provided the throttle has a dead zone, there is no noise.

Motor otherwise seems to be performing normally and no evidence of high temps.

I have the system set to default values via the Ride Control app, and there are no error codes.

The noise sounds like arcing, could possibly be a mechanical output from the motor caused by an ouput signal from a failing controller. It seems too consistent to be actual arcing. Because the noise is transmitted through the bike frame, my first action was to check the battery for an electrical fault, but this is definitely the motor. It is loud enough to sound as if it is emanating from the headset!

This noise has just started happening and is an alarming issue for such a new and very expensive system.

This will be a good test of CYC and how they handle this situation. I put a lot of faith in them when making this purchase and to have something like this happen as an early supporter of the Photon is incredibly disappointing.

 

[Mongo]

Well, here's a video that Photon owners will not want to see:

Turn the sound up a bit, in real life it is very obvious. Sounds like controller failure to me.

(Edit - to clarify this is my bike and video :-( )

Anyone else experienced this with any CYC (or other) product?

From the description:

In-country vendor (I hope, I hope)?

I'm undecided on the sound, but from my remote screen I'd guess mechanical, and I'd pull the chainring and look for contamination.

Lemme ask you this: at a standstill, does your motor make a very subtle whirring sound that increases as you up the assist level? As if the core is turning very slowly or something. Mine does. I have the throttle power setting unrestricted and 2kw in level 3, with 400/800/1200 watts PAS.

Has anybody else been wondering if we're supposed to be greasing any part of these motors (other than the spindle during the installation), aka Bafang BBS-style?

 

[Wapous]

Anyone else experienced this with any CYC (or other) product?

Have you contacted CYC? Did you receive an acknowledgment of receipt?
Did they ask you for more info?
200 km with our two motors and no trouble.
I'm waiting to see their diagnosis and the solution.
Good luck.

 

[hindesite]

In-country vendor (I hope, I hope)?

No. Long story, but we do now have a local distributor in NZ. Even on the same island as me

I emailed CYC early on and specifically asked about the best way to get the Photon in NZ, the email was ignored.

A few weeks later I ordered the motor.

About 2 weeks after that, CYC replied to a similar question I'd asked in the comments on one of their YouTube vids, saying that CYC has a distributor in NZ.

I was pretty peed off, because buying locally would have been quicker and saved several $100's

For those interested, Venture Scooters in Matamata is the NZ distributor.

CYC Motors - Click Here | Venture Scooters

venturescooters.co.nz

I'm undecided on the sound, but from my remote screen I'd guess mechanical, and I'd pull the chainring and look for contamination.

Unlikely, the noise occurs at stand still with nothing rotating.

Lemme ask you this: at a standstill, does your motor make a very subtle whirring sound that increases as you up the assist level? As if the core is turning very slowly or something. Mine does. I have the throttle power setting unrestricted and 2kw in level 3, with 400/800/1200 watts PAS.

Has anybody else been wondering if we're supposed to be greasing any part of these motors (other than the spindle during the installation), aka Bafang BBS-style?

I don't think there is any access or instructions for maintenance. Guess I'm about to find out...

 

[hindesite]

Have you contacted CYC? Did you receive an acknowledgment of receipt?

Yes, I'm pretty sure they've seen the video by now Its had about 100 views in less than 24hrs. CYC need more other videos on YT...

Received a reply from customer support very promptly, they've kicked it over to tech support but I haven't heard back from them yet.

Hoping to perhaps get more suggestions or background from here to be more informed when working with them.

Did they ask you for more info?

Not yet, but I will record the sound and have a look at the waveform at some stage. Probably useful information there.

200 km with our two motors and no trouble.

Yeah, mine was great for the first 190km too

I'm waiting to see their diagnosis and the solution.

Me too... if it includes disassembly from the bike, shipping both ways, replacement and reinstallation I'm going to be very disappointed.

Good luck.

Thanks. This is really concerning, this motor has had very little use and very light use, a bit of dust and a few light mud splashes, and not even used for extended periods over harsh terrain.

 

[hindesite]

Photon Failure:

Here's a frequency spectrum analysis via Audacity, this may perhaps mean something to those familiar with these controllers?

 

[hindesite]

Photon Failure:

Here's a frequency spectrum analysis via Audacity, this may perhaps mean something to those familiar with these controllers?

View attachment 333631

Here is a YT Short to clarify the sound produced by this fault. Please read the video description for details.

 

[Atak_Snajpera]

Me too... if it includes disassembly from the bike, shipping both ways, replacement and reinstallation I'm going to be very disappointed.

But what else do you expect? Magic firmware update fixing physical malfunction in controller or technician flying from HK to NZ to diagnose your issue?

Anyway. Thank you for your BETA testing of this motor. Personally I will wait for Photon Gen2 ...

 

[Mongo]

Sorry for the trouble you're experiencing @hindesite, hopefully CYC will come to the rescue - not something that Bafang or Tongsheng could ever bother themselves with, AFAIK. CYC better support us, at their price point.

Yep, we beta test the good, bad, and ugly.

I continue to run my Photon motor hard, hot, and heavily loaded, on the throttle, unrestricted. If it can't take it, I want it to break now, and not on the leisurely & long (but away from home) 300+ mile ride this motor was purchased for. Of course, there are no assurances it won't fail, now and not then. I'm also exercising with the torque assist, and really like how it operates.

I think I'm past 600 miles in short rides, but I've been swapping displays. Maybe the app keeps track of the totals.

 

[Wapous]

Here is a YT Short to clarify the sound produced by this fault. Please read the video description for details.

Why are you asking on this forum for a solution to your problem knowing that currently no one has mechanical experience with the Photon motor?
You have the chance to communicate with the technical service of the manufacturer. Why not wait for their diagnosis?
Note: Try to communicate with the technical department of Tongsheng Co. and you will let me know.
If they can diagnose the problem, they might be open to sending you the part and allowing you to do the repair as per their instruction.
You seem to be claiming that all Photon motors will have this problem at 200km. Today we have 300km on each of our two engines and everything is fine. On other forums, users arrive at 1000km and are still satisfied.
Nobody here knows the sales statistics of the Photon motor.
Nobody here knows the percentage of Photon motors with a technical problem.
Speculators and big talkers only make BLA BLA.
Being able to communicate with a technical service of a manufacturer is part of the purchase price.