CYC PHOTON

[Bengy22]

CYC

Awesome write up, I love the length and detail you went into! For the throttle if you don't use it that often and don't mind sacrificing some ease of use and I assume precision these throttles have intrigued me, super small and low key. I have no idea what connector cyc uses though so you might need to swap it out THUMB & TRIGGER THROTTLE - electric bike or scooter

 

[pxl666]

i must say that their approach to battery seems odd and not practical... why not customized hailong type ? with rail ...

 

[Atak_Snajpera]

I wonder why we even need a speed sensor, since the wiring and installation could be simplified and tidier without it. When a GPS costs <$40NZD with its own case, charging port, controls, firmware, battery and display I would have thought it feasible to build GPS functionality into the control or display for cheaper than all the external hardware associated with the speed sensor.

Because non-military GPS for average joe is not as reliable as speed sensor. Some time ago I wrote an app for android using GPS and during testing I had noticed a lot of weird readouts especially if you go under the bridge or next to high buildings. Accuracy is never below 3 meters. Often around 10m.

My app in action

 

[Mongo]

Looks like a beautiful place to ride, and thanks for your review/writeup - my reply chops it up, touching on "likewise" or contrasts between my experiences and yours.

CYC peripherals:
... replacement harnesses are available and are not expensive anyway.

Have you seen the CYC version main harness anywhere yet? I've been hoping to find, at least, an extension, but nothing so far.

The throttle is quite bulky [and overpriced]

Agreed, although at least it has a clamshell mount so it can be installed/removed without much fuss - just in case. My guess would be any of the Bafang throttles would work - especially since the Photon can auto-calibrate to the throttle output voltage range. The throttles are reported NOT COMPATIBLE.

The display, menu and controls are logically laid out and easy to operate, though I find when actually riding, there is effectively no tactile feedback from the buttons (especially the + and - assist level control. The + button is very close to the M key and easily mistakenly operated. There is a huge difference between using these controls to go through the settings (which all works perfectly) and actually out riding.

There are 4 assist levels, 0 and 1-3. Unfortunately it is too easy to select 0 without realising it, since the only status display is a small digit in the top right of the display. I quite often find my self repeatedly selecting + or - and then working back from 3 or up from 0 to get the level I want. I would prefer a slight long press to drop from 1 to 0; I've even found when using walk assist, if your finger bounces off the key, 0 is selected.
...
I would like to see a horizontally oriented unit, with the + and - keys to the left and the display positioned over the brake lever clamp, similar to the DZ41 displays for Bafang systems.

I'd also like to see more configurability of the display. I don't need to see the speed, since I use an Xoss G+ GPS for that, but I would like to see either the assist level in large digits, or the other motor parameters. Currently all of those are really too small to be very useful.

And since I don't think anyone is making one yet, how about a thin minimal display unit that can be stuck onto the top tube behind the headset? That would be a lot more discreet and less vulnerable. I'd be happy if it just had LED displays for assist and battery level or just showed a level gauge for each on an OLED display.
...
I'd be interested what alternative displays are known to be compatible with the Photon system if anyone has experience with any. Same for throttles.

Yep - especially what I bolded - the SW102 display is too small to glance read the text size available. And maybe I've got it angled wrong, but mine washes out completely under direct sun.

I'd love to know what CYC defines as compatible when it comes to displays. I have used a horizontal 750C display with my Photon motor without noticeable issues. No, it doesn't currently display some of the data (like the motor temps), but I'd consider that lack of a feature and not a compatibility issue. And, as with the throttle, CYC can stop gouging us on the display pricing. Their display firmware ain't all that, after all.

I'd also like to see CYC update the 500C display, as a SW102 alternative. If CYC could provide a Bluetooth data integration/feed to a mapping GPS like the Garmin Edge Explore 2, it would be, for me, the perfect display.

 

[hindesite]

CYC Battery:

(Sorry, another long post. Hope it helps).

I ordered a CYC battery as part of my Photon kit. This post is to give some details and share my thoughts and experiences; I doubt many are considering this battery and there may be good reasons not to. YMMV.

The battery I got was the B-52 with Samsung 50e cells. Capacity is 520Wh but output is limited to 30A or ~1500W. This is fine for use with the Photon and I prefer the better capacity than the 40t variant. I am fairly space constrained with my frame, and NZ has a real issue with the availability of reputable battery packs. Shipping is very expensive and often not available. This might be related to us being right in the centre of the Pacific Ocean. Which has its advantages, BTW.

I might have been the first to buy a battery for delivery NZ, because although my order was accepted as part of my Photon order, CYC came back to me and wanted $147 more for shipping. I was not at all happy about that, and notice that they've now added NZ as a shipping destination separate from Australia, with the updated and increased shipping costs. Shipping was Fedex ex USA and very fast, not even 2 weeks IIRC.

The battery isn't shown in any detail on the CYC website. IRL it is quite well presented, and comes in a decent looking plastic case. Unfortunately this is rectangular so tends to not fit most triangular bike frames. However (except for one annoying detail) this would make a decent spare back-packable range extender. Weight is 3kg. There is a mounting rail supplied with the battery, quite well made but next to useless, and I'm not showing that here.

Also included are some really nice velcro straps - these are Omni-Tape, the type where the hooks and loops are intermingled and when you see this in use you wonder WTF Velcro have been so slow to adopt this development (I think they bought the company that developed it). When you use these you won't want to go back to the normal 2-part hook and loop system.

The case is a plastic clamshell with a central zipper closing it. When closed the zipper is right under the battery and against the frame. SMH.

There are fittings on both ends to pass fixing straps through, though I can't see how these would ever be useful. There is an LED level indicator on one top corner, which may cause problems for mounting if you want to use straps. You only need to use the indicator to check while charging, but the button stands quite proud so would be pressed by a strap on top of it. The button area should have been recessed (just like the LEDs) to avoid this happening.

Opening the case reveals a battery unit, this is potted and shrink wrapped, and then potted into one half of the clamshell. This is problematic for reasons I'll cover later. The lid of the clamshell is lined with foam. The case itself seems really nice and is well made, with nice detailing. I just don't think this was the best choice for this application.

One end of the case interior is allocated to the connector for the 5-LED charge level indicator and a blade automotive fuse. There is a spare 50A fuse supplied with the battery. On my sample, the fuse holder was poorly fitted and damaged the foam and was rubbing against inside of the case. One wonders what nastiness is lurking under the potted area.

A bit of work has gone into making these cases, they are quite well detailed.

The battery comes supplied with a very nicely fabricated rail system, and fixes to that with 4 lugs like the one above. I've heatshrinked the lugs on mine with a couple of layers because I can't use the rail system, and I don't want the lugs to scratch the frame.

Why not take the lugs off, you ask? They are just screwed on from inside the case. Remember the battery is potted into one half of the case. Yeah...

I could grind everything off, but that seems a little final. I can't use the rail because it adds too much to the height of the battery, and all of my bike frames have wide and flat downtubes that the rail will not fit around anyway. In any case I would be really reluctant to use bottle cage mounts to mount the battery, these are not intended to carry this kind of weight (on one of my bikes, they've never been installed correctly anyway - thanks Giant).

Likewise it makes little sense to just strap the rail and then bolt the battery to that. Better to put straps right around the battery and tie everything down.

Although the execution of the rail system is well done - the quality looks excellent - the design isn't great. I doubt I'm the only user who just can't use this system. The design decisions make a lot more sense when you consider it as an evolution of the X-series battery and mount system; unfortunately I think CYC should have started completely fresh.

And of course, those lugs get in the way if you want to use this battery as a backpackable range extender. Otherwise, with its shape and rounded corners it would be really good for that.

The power cable is disappointing. This is a mesh covered pair of stiff conductors which looks nasty and attracts dirt and water and is difficult to clean. The XT-90 connector is covered with heat shrink tubing and is not moulded on to the cable, so might have structural issues with extended use. I would have thought an XT-90 connector moulded onto a properly sheathed pigtail would have been a reasonable way to manufacture this battery. This aspect looks like any DIY build. Some of the early motors were shown with this mesh covering on the power cable, and CYC have since changed to properly sheathed cable (probably a preassembled pigtail on the XT-90). They need to do this for their batteries, too.

There is no separate charging connector or port, so to charge you have to unplug the motor - every time - and plug the main XT-90 connector into the charger. This suits me, but might not suit others. The battery pack has no power switch, which some might consider a shortcoming. On the other hand that is less cost and less to go wrong. Also less to get in the way of straps

The label shows the battery capacity, some instructions and warnings, but NOTHING about the certification of the battery. CYC website claims:

This product complies with UN38.3, IEC62133, RoHS, FCC, & CE standards​

I would guess that these certifications are inherited from the Samsung origin of the cells, and do not apply to the assembled battery pack. However it was shipped by airfreight via Fedex and ex USA with no problems.

I'm sure there are heaps of people here who can contribute about the certification. I would have thought there was a requirement for the battery pack itself to display certification.

Battery sits on my downtube quite tidily. I can also tie it up under the top tube, where it jams quite securely against the downtube and is very secure. The battery would also fit against the seatpost on the top tube, too.

The tabs just happen to be wide enough apart to fit close to each side of the frame, I just taped some padding (some foam feet and plastic milk bottle pieces) under some polythene tape to protect the frame and help the battery sit nicely, and then lash it into place with 50mm Velcro straps at each end. These cover the tabs and tape and hold the battery really securely.

The level indicator is located right where you'd normally use a strap to hold the battery in place. However a 50mm strap allows me place the buckle in exactly the right place to still access the indicator, and at the same time not press the button. Excellent serendipitous result. I don't think this was designed this way.

End result.

I'm actually pretty happy with this. A Shark or Hailong-type battery wouldn't look any better, and I'd have less confidence in how they attach. Some triangle battery bags might look OK, but that's quite a few straps to attach and remove.

I have no intention of charging the battery inside my house, so being able to quickly remove just 2 straps to remove the battery works really well for me. I'd also consider a second battery which could either be used to extend the range of this bike, or to power a second Photon build.

520Wh works for almost all the riding I do, and for the rest, well, I'll just have to pedal more

I'd like to see CYC

1. change the shape to angled ends (even 30 degrees would fit more frames, kind of like the now discontinued X-series batteries)
2. retain the moulded plastic case but lose the zip (why would you need to open the case in normal use)
3. make the mounting rail system lugs removable
4. make some small changes to the LED level gauge so straps don't interfere with the button
5. upgrade the power cable to something decent
6. work on offering cheaper but slower shipping options

I think the work CYC did on the Photon was really good, it fits very well and integrates well with my bike. The battery? Not so much.

If there are good alternatives where you live, they may be worth considering. Otherwise, with some compromises and shortcomings, this battery seems OK.

 

[hindesite]

Awesome write up, I love the length and detail you went into! For the throttle if you don't use it that often and don't mind sacrificing some ease of use and I assume precision these throttles have intrigued me, super small and low key. I have no idea what connector cyc uses though so you might need to swap it out THUMB & TRIGGER THROTTLE - electric bike or scooter

There seem to be a similar range from WuXing, but the one you linked to looks nicer.

 

[sysrq]

Are cranks supposed to turn together with the chainring on CYC Photon with throttle enabled? Haven't seen it on TSDZ2 and BBS02. That's what I saw in the videos. This might mean that motor will clash with the leg power or there will be increased drag due to stiffer sprag clutch than normal being used.

 

[hindesite]

Because non-military GPS for average joe is not as reliable as speed sensor. Some time ago I wrote an app for android using GPS and during testing I had noticed a lot of weird readouts especially if you go under the bridge or next to high buildings. Accuracy is never below 3 meters. Often around 10m.

Would that matter for this application? I personally doubt it. And GPS could have a LOT of advantages over a speed sensor.

 

[hindesite]

Are cranks supposed to turn together with the chainring on CYC Photon with throttle enabled? Haven't seen it on TSDZ2 and BBS02. That's what I saw in the videos. This might mean that motor will clash with the leg power or there will be increased drag due to stiffer sprag clutch than normal being used.

No they don't in practical use. There is a bit of drag in the seals and clutch so as shown in video they will turn, this is normal, and you don't notice it. In fact if you look at some parts of the video, the cranks turn slower than the chainring, so there is some slip even with nothing on the pedals.

 

[hindesite]

i must say that their approach to battery seems odd and not practical... why not customized hailong type ? with rail ...

I agree, but I have made it work quite well for me. I think I prefer it to the Hailong type casing and rail mount, which might be OK for street riding. I don't do much of that.

 

[hindesite]

Looks like a beautiful place to ride, and thanks for your review/writeup - my reply chops it up, touching on "likewise" or contrasts between my experiences and yours.

Have you seen the CYC version main harness anywhere yet? I've been hoping to find, at least, an extension, but nothing so far.

Yes, CYC have added a lot of stuff to their shop, including single main harness (for those who won't be using a throttle) and also 2 and 4 wire harnesses.

Agreed, although at least it has a clamshell mount so it can be installed/removed without much fuss - just in case. My guess would be any of the Bafang throttles would work - especially since the Photon can auto-calibrate to the throttle output voltage range.

Yes, part of the bulk stems from the fact it is clamshell and the sensor unit has to fit beside the bars. There is a 130X version that has a concentric sensor that isn't clamshell, but you only fit these once and on my bike I'd only have to remove the handgrip. I might look into one of them, they are cheap on AliExpress.

Yep - especially what I bolded - the SW102 display is too small to glance read the text size available. And maybe I've got it angled wrong, but mine washes out completely under direct sun.

Even 3 vertical assist bars and 5 vertical battery bars on the SW102 would work for me most the time. Could be accessed by the Mode key. And for some users, more than that would be confusing anyway.

I'd love to know what CYC defines as compatible when it comes to displays. I have used a horizontal 750C display with my Photon motor without noticeable issues. No, it doesn't currently display some of the data (like the motor temps), but I'd consider that lack of a feature and not a compatibility issue. And, as with the throttle, CYC can stop gouging us on the display pricing. Their display firmware ain't all that, after all.

Hey, it is way cheaper than the Eggrider

I'd also like to see CYC update the 500C display, as a SW102 alternative. If CYC could provide a Bluetooth data integration/feed to a mapping GPS like the Garmin Edge Explore 2, it would be, for me, the perfect display.

When I looked there seems to be a few displays and other peripherals that use the same connector so are physically compatible, But when you look at the pinouts they are all different, this is madness. And the connectors are hard to DIY to correct or make adapters. And documentation from everybody seems scarce or non existent.

 

[amberwolf]

Also included are some really nice velcro straps - these are Omni-Tape, the type where the hooks and loops are intermingled and when you see this in use you wonder WTF Velcro have been so slow to adopt this development (I think they bought the company that developed it). When you use these you won't want to go back to the normal 2-part hook and loop system.

Kind of OT, but there is another "genderless" velcro system that is very strong; I forget what it is called but the "hooks" are all the same (and are also the straps), and look like teensy tiny mushrooms in rows. Oddly, a quick google for "velcro mushroom" actually finds this type easily, apparently called 3M Dual Lock :lol:

velcro mushroom - Google Search

I tried some of the 3M version years ago and it's a good thing it was 3M adhesive, because the hooking was so strong I could see the adhesive deforming and it was about to let go when the hooks finally did, pulling with both hands on the controller case I'd used as a test object (to a flat part of square metal tubing) straight off the surface as a test of holding power. The pieces of this velcro I'd gotten had fairly thick backings with recessed screw holes in them so they could be "guaranteed" to be secure even if the adhesive wasn't sufficient by itself.

I never got around to actually using it to secure something to the bike (CrazyBike2) to test ride it around for longterm reliability testing, but I think if it were secured in the center by the screws (with washers to spread load if needed) and more on the edges or a flat strip on each edge to secure them down, you could probably hold entire batteries to the bike with it, not as straps, but as a "place and stick" mount....

If it were sewn or otherwise attached to the securing ends of quality straps or belts, it would probably make an awesomely strong and secure strap system.

 

[pxl666]

I agree, but I have made it work quite well for me. I think I prefer it to the Hailong type casing and rail mount, which might be OK for street riding. I don't do much of that.

what do u mean "street riding" ? no offroad ? most of bikes i put together have these and are used in heavy mtb tsdz2 conversions

 

[Atak_Snajpera]

Would that matter for this application? I personally doubt it. And GPS could have a LOT of advantages over a speed sensor.

Calculated speed tends to fluctuate in some situations a lot. For example in one second you see 15km/h , then 9km/h and in third second 20km/h. With speed sensor measuring rotation speed of your wheel this is not possible. Calculated speed is stable as rock. No weird fluctuations.

 

[AZeBikeGuy]

Because non-military GPS for average joe is not as reliable as speed sensor. Some time ago I wrote an app for android using GPS and during testing I had noticed a lot of weird readouts especially if you go under the bridge or next to high buildings. Accuracy is never below 3 meters. Often around 10m.

FWIW Garmin has GPS's that connect to wireless wheel sensors and use long baseline GNSS to calibrate the wheel sensor so best of everything, very accurate, and can log that along with all the other fun stuff. Mine also has a wireless pedal cadence sensor, temperature sensor and heart rate monitor all of which get logged and readily display in google earth an other mapping applications...

 

[Mongo]

what do u mean "street riding" ? no offroad ? most of bikes i put together have these and are used in heavy mtb tsdz2 conversions

Hi @pxl666, thanks for the picture link - quite a collection of builds there.

I suspect there's an individual level of comfort with anchoring down our varied weight Hailong tray batteries to bottle mounts, especially to say, just two aluminum threaded bosses welded into an aluminum frame. For example, on a smooth road commuter build, I had a 13.5AH battery on a two-boss aluminum frame, on which I also used velcro straps for insurance. With my heavier & larger capacity batteries, mounted on bikes ridden in rougher conditions, I add 1-2 rivnuts and tie the tray down via all four tray holes.

Overkill - maybe.

The CYC battery can be secured to bottle bosses, but it's not readily removable once the battery is screwed onto the mount. An interesting first attempt, but as @hindesite said, CYC (and others), could do better. There's lots of room to improve the externally mounted battery designs, even though the latest Hailong tray design is, IMO, pretty good.

 

[Mongo]

FWIW Garmin has GPS's that connect to wireless wheel sensors and use long baseline GNSS to calibrate the wheel sensor so best of everything, very accurate, and can log that along with all the other fun stuff. Mine also has a wireless pedal cadence sensor, temperature sensor and heart rate monitor all of which get logged and readily display in google earth an other mapping applications...

Garmin also interacts with some e-bike motor systems, such as Shimano.

I was gonna add multi-band GNSS, but ya kinda beat me to it, and I dunno how global or country based the newer GNSS (Global Navigation Satellite System) technologies are.

I've tried out my new Garmin Edge under heavily leafed-out tree canopy rides, and it was steady and stable. YMMV. I do remember my older GPS car navigation devices barfing and choking up in urban environments.

 

[Wapous]

In my book, using more than 100 words to describe a battery system indicates bad design. The hailong concept that I have been using for six years has never failed. Even after several shakes.
When you need to remove the battery frequently to get the bike in the car or charge it upstairs, the design should be simple and efficient. Some secure the battery with wide velcro straps for trail use.

 

[AZeBikeGuy]

Garmin also interacts with some e-bike motor systems, such as Shimano.

I was gonna add multi-band GNSS, but ya kinda beat me to it, and I dunno how global or country based the newer GNSS (Global Navigation Satellite System) technologies are.

I've tried out my new Garmin Ege under heavily leafed-out tree canopy rides, and it was steady and stable.

Newer GNSS, even consumer units, pretty much all utilize Satellite-based augmentation systems (SBAS), e.g. WAAS in north america, that cover most of the land areas in the northern hemisphere... WAAS is specified to bring accuracy to <3m but typically brings a consumer GNSS to <1m

But that's just for a given sample - averaging samples over time can give extremely high accuracy positions, better than 1cm in consumer units and sub-millimeter in the professional market

Phones have lousy GNSS antennas but benefit from having augmentation from the cellular network - still hard to trust them due to the lousy antennas

A decent GNSS will calculate speed based on the difference between two position samples and typically any error between two samples that have the same satellite view will change very little so speed is accurate in those cases - unfortunately if a satellite that's important to the solution gets dropped then the error before and after can change enough to put a burp in the speed calculation... most units will "filter" out the burps though

The wheel sensor/GNSS combo is ideal for speed sensing though - usually the error in a wheel speed sensor is primarily due to the error in wheel circumference however like averaging position over a long time averaging the GNSS distance the wheel turns over a long time will give a very accurate wheel circumference and similarly give very accurate wheel speeds - much better than the resolution of the speed displayed on most GNSS's...

 

[hindesite]

Newer GNSS, even consumer units, pretty much all utilize Satellite-based augmentation systems (SBAS), e.g. WAAS in north america, that cover most of the land areas in the northern hemisphere... WAAS is specified to bring accuracy to <3m but typically brings a consumer GNSS to <1m

We are in the process of setting up SouthPAN with Australia, because it would be economically stupid to not do something, the benefits are just too great to ignore. Early days though.

But that isn't going to (probably) ever be available in a <USD$30 consumer cycling GPS ex China or Hongkong, and nor is it necessary. However it astonishes me that the GPS I just got has GPS+BEIDOU+GLONASS+GALILEO+QZSS capability. We're a long way from a military GPS being the size of a back pack, with power requirements and training to match.

The requirements to just give a general indication of speed for cycling are pretty low, and many bikes don't even display speed at all.

BTW in NZ almost all the commercially manufactured imported bikes from the major manufacturers are all speed limited at 25 or 32kph and 250W. This is crazy because in NZ the power limit is 300W and we have no speed limit specifically for bikes at all.

You aren't going to vary appreciably from those speeds if the GPS glitches a little, your own mass will smooth your actual speed out even if the GPS didn't do that already. And even a 5% error would be of little consequence - I can't even see a fraction of that when comparing my speed sensor output to what my GPS displays.

 

[hindesite]

Hi @pxl666, thanks for the picture link - quite a collection of builds there.

I suspect there's an individual level of comfort with anchoring down our varied weight Hailong tray batteries to bottle mounts, especially to say, just two aluminum threaded bosses welded into an aluminum frame.

On my Giant Trance, these are not welded - they are just rivnuts. And they've both failed when the bike was practically new, from just carrying a bottle.

On my Silverback it is hard to tell if they actually are welded and they seem secure but I figure if I'm using straps and they work well enough, might as well skip any of the rail stuff completely.

The problem with the cage mounts is that once they start failing, they are done - and replacing is either difficult or impossible (depending on access and how flogged out the frame is in the area). And they really weren't designed for large dynamic loads. The tube wall on my Trance is paper thin.

 

[raylo32]

There's always the Bottle Bob approach to mount the Hailong/shark type.

 

[AZeBikeGuy]

We are in the process of setting up SouthPAN with Australia, because it would be economically stupid to not do something, the benefits are just too great to ignore. Early days though.

But that isn't going to (probably) ever be available in a <USD$30 consumer cycling GPS ex China or Hongkong, and nor is it necessary. However it astonishes me that the GPS I just got has GPS+BEIDOU+GLONASS+GALILEO+QZSS capability. We're a long way from a military GPS being the size of a back pack, with power requirements and training to match.

The requirements to just give a general indication of speed for cycling are pretty low, and many bikes don't even display speed at all.

BTW in NZ almost all the commercially manufactured imported bikes from the major manufacturers are all speed limited at 25 or 32kph and 250W. This is crazy because in NZ the power limit is 300W and we have no speed limit specifically for bikes at all.

You aren't going to vary appreciably from those speeds if the GPS glitches a little, your own mass will smooth your actual speed out even if the GPS didn't do that already. And even a 5% error would be of little consequence - I can't even see a fraction of that when comparing my speed sensor output to what my GPS displays.

Yeah we setup C-band correction in the very early days (mid-90's) and did our own high precision L-band a bit later... the typical
SBAS system doesn't cost much to setup and operate so it's a bit surprising that OZ/NZ has been dragging it's feet

I agree - for me speed on a display just isn't important at all on a bike, don't pay attention to it. I do like taking my gps logs and displaying them in google earth and when you pull up the "show elevation profile" it shows all sorts of things in the graph including speed, heart rate, temperature, pedal cadence, etc.

I was trying to correlate my heart rate with speed, pedal cadence or whatever and really couldn't find much correlation - after really pouring over the google earth profiles I finally figured out that my highest heart rates were when I was crossing busy streets! LOL... I don't ride on the streets but the multi-use trails out here do cross some busy ones where cars are often going 55mph or more...

 

[migrant]

New to ebike world...considering the Photon for the torque sensor feature instead of Bafang, but prefer the shark battery over the CYC battery.
Would I be able to connect the shark battery to the Photon motor without modifying the connector/plug?

 

[Atak_Snajpera]

With CYC you can use any battery with female XT90 plug

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