Dark Side Time, but which way to go?

[Tommy L]

I want to go DARKSIDE and build a build with an In-Frame Motor.
Do you go direct from motor to big rear sprocket/belt pulley?
Or do you use reduction?

Or does it all depend on the rear wheel diameter?
Or all of the above?

" direct from motor to big rear sprocket/belt pulley" ......is using reduction ! ( single stage)
and how much reduction is needed will depend on the wheel diameter, motor RPM, speed required, etc etc.
But i suspect you were asking if you needed multiple reduction stages ?..which depends again on what rpm range your motor will run in.

Right you are! and thank you! (wow I can't believe I missed the "Single Stage" part)

I'd like to do a Scratch Build. I've recently got my TIG welding ticket So from everything I've read so far, the DarkSide with right size motor
is the ticket, and No Gear Box.

My last build (I've built 5 so far) is a FS Mountain bike with 9C2810 and I run either Grin C7225 at 76.8v nom A123 or Lyen 4115 at 128v nom A123.

I tired of having the battery pack on my Back in a Backpack. Also, If I'm running the Lyen with 128v, my speed can be 50mph/80kph and that gets scary
on a bicycle. 30mph/50kph is plenty which the Grin C7225 @ 76.8v nom gives me.

So now it's time to move the Lyen 4115 over to another build. 17" motorcycle rims, Pirelli Dot, Moto front triple tree suspension.
Getting the rims and tires purchased and delivered first so I can figure the circumference of the wheel.

The hardest part about this whole build is: Why reinvent the wheel? I have a Moto License, so why not just get a donor moto. 250 Enduro? 650 enduro?
Also, I have a 1985 Honda VT1100C that still runs and is plated. I've thought of just pulling the engine out and making her electric (I still have my 2003 Honda VTX 1800C) Or selling the 1985 for some cash to do a scratch build, but the 1985 has shaft drive (reduction built in) put an ACxx Motor and some cells and done. Doing any of the Moto conversions means Licensing and Insurance. Scratch Bicycle means so Licensing/insurance.

Also, I have a late 90's Sears Mountain Bike with no Suspension. Big Triangle for battery, so I could mod it as a Longtail and put rear suspension and a Triple tree up front, switch the wheels out for the moto rims and pirelli tires.

Man oh man, too many choice!

Tommy L sends......

I've moved this over to: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=50275

 

[Tommy L]

I'd like to do a Scratch Build. I've recently got my TIG welding ticket So from everything I've read so far, the DarkSide with right size motor
is the ticket, and No Gear Box.

My last build (I've built 5 so far) is a FS Mountain bike with 9C2810 and I run either Grin C7225 at 76.8v nom A123 or Lyen 4115 at 128v nom A123.

I'm tired of having the battery pack on my Back in a Backpack. Also, If I'm running the Lyen with 128v, my speed can be 50mph/80kph and that gets scary
on a bicycle. 30mph/50kph is plenty which the Grin C7225 @ 76.8v nom gives me.

So now it's time to move the Lyen 4115 over to another build. 17" motorcycle rims, Pirelli Dot, Moto front triple tree suspension.
Getting the rims and tires purchased and delivered first so I can figure the circumference of the wheel.

The hardest part about this whole build is: Why reinvent the wheel? I have a Moto License, so why not just get a donor moto. 250 Enduro? 650 enduro?
Also, I have a 1985 Honda VT1100C that still runs and is plated. I've thought of just pulling the engine out and making her electric (I still have my 2003 Honda VTX 1800C) Or selling the 1985 for some cash to do a scratch build, but the 1985 has shaft drive (reduction built in) put an ACxx Motor and some cells and done. Doing any of the Moto conversions means Licensing and Insurance. Scratch Bicycle means so Licensing/insurance.

Also, I have a late 90's Sears Mountain Bike with no Suspension. Big Triangle for battery, so I could mod it as a Longtail and put rear suspension and a Triple tree up front, switch the wheels out for the moto rims and pirelli tires, and Mid Drive.

Man oh man, too many choice! With five builds so far, you'd think that this would be an easy decision.

Tommy L sends......

 

[e-beach]

I'd like to do a Scratch Build.

Like a full frame scratch build or frankinbike scratch build?

The hardest part about this whole build is: Why reinvent the wheel? I have a Moto License, so why not just get a donor moto.

I always tought it would be fun to get a donor motorcycle, pull the top end (heads, pistons, etc) have the crank modified to have a worm gear setup that would couple with a motor also with a worm gear setup and you have a motorcycle with gears.

One could almost always cruse at high rpm to maximize efficiency or use the gearing to get up to speed or slow down or just have fun. But that would mean licensing and insurance...

Also, I have a late 90's Sears Mountain Bike with no Suspension. Big Triangle for battery, so I could mod it as a Longtail and put rear suspension and a Triple tree up front, switch the wheels out for the moto rims and pirelli tires, and Mid Drive.

My un-suspended early 90 Trek was really unstable due to the way the stock forks were designed. Adding length to a bike like that would help stabilize it, but having an extra heavy unstable bike could be a problem so watch out for that.

So, it sounds like you have your 'fun' bikes, and need a commuter or hauler. Do you do a lot of commuting or a lot of hauling?

 

[Tommy L]

I'd like to do a Scratch Build.

Like a full frame scratch build or frankinbike scratch build?

The hardest part about this whole build is: Why reinvent the wheel? I have a Moto License, so why not just get a donor moto.

I always tought it would be fun to get a donor motorcycle, pull the top end (heads, pistons, etc) have the crank modified to have a worm gear setup that would couple with a motor also with a worm gear setup and you have a motorcycle with gears.

One could almost always cruse at high rpm to maximize efficiency or use the gearing to get up to speed or slow down or just have fun. But that would mean licensing and insurance...

Also, I have a late 90's Sears Mountain Bike with no Suspension. Big Triangle for battery, so I could mod it as a Longtail and put rear suspension and a Triple tree up front, switch the wheels out for the moto rims and pirelli tires, and Mid Drive.

My un-suspended early 90 Trek was really unstable due to the way the stock forks were designed. Adding length to a bike like that would help stabilize it, but having an extra heavy unstable bike could be a problem so watch out for that.

So, it sounds like you have your 'fun' bikes, and need a commuter or hauler. Do you do a lot of commuting or a lot of hauling?

I could build a frame from Scratch. 4310 chromoly or steel. "Commuter"
The Bramo gives up some efficiency to run the gearbox, but then almost makes it up again if the motor rpm is kept in the sweet spot.
My commute is mostly 80% of the time on 50mph/80kph road.

Tommy L sends....

 

[Tommy L]

Comfortable seating position and in-frame cells are a must. I've been spoiled with my 2003 Honda VTX1800C and my Catrike 700 seating positions.

Hooligan is my FS Mountain daily commuter. Seating position is hard on Neck and wrists.
And no room for cells. I don't want my cells in my BackPack any longer! 8)

 

[e-beach]

I know what you mean about wrists and neck on mountain bikes. I have to really watch how much pressure I put into my wrists while commuting. Hands above the seat are probably more comfortable. I also use a suspended seat post to add come comfort while sitting. My batteries are in my triangle so I don't always carry things on my back.

The scratch frame I have been designing is a mountain bike / beach cruiser fusion with a hint of Valkyrie thrown in there. It is full suspension with an extended triangle behind the seat big enough to hold 2 -20ah a123 pouch cell packs. It would not even have a seat tube as I would cut that off and support it in other ways. In the end it would be heavy at about 100lbs or so, but it would be a very comfortable upright cruiser with a lot of range perfect for the big city.

If i went mid-drive with the design the weight could come down 15lbs or so....

 

[Tommy L]

The scratch frame I have been designing is a mountain bike / beach cruiser fusion with a hint of Valkyrie thrown in there. It is full suspension with an extended triangle behind the seat big enough to hold 2 -20ah a123 pouch cell packs. It would not even have a seat tube as I would cut that off and support it in other ways. In the end it would be heavy at about 100lbs or so, but it would be a very comfortable upright cruiser with a lot of range perfect for the big city.

If i went mid-drive with the design the weight could come down 15lbs or so....

Could I see some Pictures? Even the sketch(s) would be cool to see.

I could change the Handle Bars on my Hooligan, but it still doesn't solve the in-frame battery part. I could take the swing arm off and extend
the frame. Lot's of options! lol

Tommy L sends....

 

[e-beach]

Could I see some Pictures? Even the sketch(s) would be cool to see.

I could change the Handle Bars on my Hooligan, but it still doesn't solve the in-frame battery part. I could take the swing arm off and extend
the frame. Lot's of options! lol

Tommy L sends....

I was trying to find the sketches in my pile of notes but I have to move quick at the moment as I have an appointment in 30 minutes. The picts will probably come later.

Have you seen Dogmans "Bouncing Betty" ...A suspension bike rear-end attached to a hardtail mountain bike with a big wide open triangle?

 

[John in CR]

The hardest part about this whole build is: Why reinvent the wheel? I have a Moto License, so why not just get a donor moto. 250 Enduro? 650 enduro?

The answer is because you got your TIG welding certificate and motos are too heavy. Pick up something to get the VIN# from and some useful parts, copy some moto geometry, and then build your own thing where the battery bay doubles as part of the vehicle structure. Use 4130 for the high rigidity to weight ratio and build something low and sleek so you can get performance and efficiency and range all in one package.

My first EV was a lead laden pig moto that was heavy even without the lead batts, and every ebike I've built including the first one with the crappy little brushed motor outperformed that moto-pig. Now I've got an ebike that outperforms almost anything on the road but a true sportbike, and I'm just a hacker. You have the tools and the access to a facility to do something special, so get the right drive system and do it right.

John

 

[Tommy L]

The hardest part about this whole build is: Why reinvent the wheel? I have a Moto License, so why not just get a donor moto. 250 Enduro? 650 enduro?

The answer is because you got your TIG welding certificate and motos are too heavy. and I'm just a hacker. You have the tools and the access to a facility to do something special, so get the right drive system and do it right.

John

I really appreciate your words John!

Now it's a parts list

Some of my first thoughts are:
Rims and Tires, then....
Brakes and suspension, then....
Mid drive motor/controller

I have enough A123's for this project, although I've contemplated RC LiCo.

Once I have that basic parts list together, then I can go to design phase.

Tommy L sends....

 

[Hillhater]

Tommy,.. you seem to know most of the "how to" part of the build, but it sound like you are undecided on the "what to" build part.
I suggest you think hard on what you intend to do with the finished bike, commute, fun ride, touring, off road, etc etc.
Then figure what "bike" best suits that intended use..
... IE heavy comfortable Emotorbike for touring,.... or lighter nimble Ebike for fun /off road. ...or any variation in between.
After you know what you are building, the technical details will more easily fall into place. :wink:

 

[Tommy L]

Tommy,.. you seem to know most of the "how to" part of the build, but it sound like you are undecided on the "what to" build part.
I suggest you think hard on what you intend to do with the finished bike, commute, fun ride, touring, off road, etc etc.
Then figure what "bike" best suits that intended use..
... IE heavy comfortable Emotorbike for touring,.... or lighter nimble Ebike for fun /off road. ...or any variation in between.
After you know what you are building, the technical details will more easily fall into place. :wink:

Right you are! Great words!

The Emoto would be the safe commuter for sure. A 250 enduro would also allow for some off-road/back road fun

I put a thread link to where I moved to. I created a topic for my journey.
Would you copy or move your response over to the thread below?
Be great to see/read you there!
Tommy L sends.....

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=50275

 

[thickhead]

My bike is not a scratch build--it's pretty standard. But here's my perspective on long tail (cargo) bikes: I recommend them!

I use mine for commuting (about 20 miles round trip), and I really love having the cargo space. I usually need to take a bunch of stuff back and forth (computer, books, papers...), but I also have space to carry extras (like extra outerwear during transition seasons, food, tools). It's incredibly useful and I'm spoiled by it. I also do light hauling, of course--usually groceries, but sometimes bigger things, like this axle for a student project


but this capability really doesn't adversely effect the overall performance of the bike for regular road use, which by itself only weighs 60lbs including a rear BMC and 13Ah battery. The stealthiness of the cargo packs is a big plus on bike paths, and I can easily add extra batteries for longer trips. Of course, if you want significant off-road capability or high maneuverability, that's another story...

I guess my main point is that you don't necessarily have to think of commuter bikes and hauling bikes as different things.

Looking forward to seeing what progresses!

 

[spinningmagnets]

With a welder, you have many options. I haven't re-assembled my DIY longtail FS since my move, and now I only have a one-car garage, so no room to park the beast. But...while it was running, it was awesome. Plenty of frame space for a non-hub of any configuration (one of the reasons I wanted it, as a test-bed), and also plenty of battery pack space. I specifically wanted to show that a longtail FS could be put together with only a hacksaw and a drill, but...if I was able to make a custom shock front bracket?...piece of cake.

If this is too long, you can use a 24-inch front frame, and a 20-inch rear from a suspension BMX. Just for the record, dogmans "Bouncing Betty" method is the easiest to do, and I've also heard it is very stable. I can verify that my FS longtail was very stable. The handlebars shown were comfortable, but I would now try standard beach cruiser bars (a cheap experiment).

 

[Tommy L]

I guess my main point is that you don't necessarily have to think of commuter bikes and hauling bikes as different things.

Looking forward to seeing what progresses!

Ok, maybe I'll do a long tail to add to the chaos in my garage! lol

Your ride looks sweeeeeeeet man!

Tommy L sends.....

 

[Tommy L]

I read thru your two threads. Saw some of the handlebar options

Your design is low and sleek. Nice!
So I thought of making a longtail. Thought of building a small fold up bike (fun in the malls!) Our Mall cops don't ride Segway I'm sure a little
Lithium Folder would out run them! lol
This is such a fun hobby, but everyone here really needs a "Jay Leno's Garage" to put the 20 electric builds in! lol :lol:

I even would like to build something like the Erokit. But the Longtail with a mid drive would be cool too!
So many choices!

Tommy L sends....

 

[e-beach]

Could I see some Pictures? Even the sketch(s) would be cool to see. I could change the Handle Bars on my Hooligan, but it still doesn't solve the in-frame battery part. I could take the swing arm off and extend the frame. Lot's of options! lol

Tommy L sends....

OK, I am officially unemployed again. And I couldn't fine my other sketches of my ideas because I cleaned up around here and can't find anything.

But I did have time at my last day of work yesterday to sketch a couple of examples on the back of some old paperwork.

My drafting skills aren't that good so the dimensions are off a bit, but it should give you an idea of what I was thinking.

The idea of this one was to get enough of an open frame to get 50 miles worth of LiFePO4 in it. Plus the electronics. The seat tube would be removed but the frame would be supported by side struts that would be mounted with a 4 inch inside gap to allow for batteries to go between them. I would also put side covers on the frame to keep weather and people away from the batteries and electronics. (side covers not drawn.) The rear mono-shock would not need much travel because this is a city commuter.

View attachment 1

And this is the longtail version of the same idea. It would need dual side struts (not drawn) It could have a mono-shock, dual shocks or a hard tail. My guess is that a hard tail would be best for carrying lots of cargo.

All thoughts welcomed.

 

[Tommy L]

OMG .... that's a bad drawing! lol Just kidding! I wish I could draw like that! Nice work man!

Tommy L sends.....

 

[e-beach]

OMG .... that's a bad drawing! lol Just kidding! I wish I could draw like that! Nice work man!

Tommy L sends.....

Thanks!