Does anybody know anything about the batt for the Zero MC EV

M

madmadscientist

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Mar 24, 2008
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Hello Again,
Saw this neat looking electric offroad mc online and their battery packs look interesting
http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/fastest.php
Well they are pretty darn expensive at ~$3K for a 2kWhr batt...58V @ 35Ahr http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/store.php
They say their batt are Li-ion but safer than other Li-ion and they are patent pending?

Does anybody know anything concrete about these batteries? I really doubht that this little EV manf is making its own batt.
I emailed their tech help people so I guess I'll see what they will tell me.

Daniel Neumansky
Alameda CA
 
I forget who makes the batteries, but $1.50/Wh isn't all that bad for a complete, quality pack.
 
exactly I'd have to know who really makes the battery before I thought it was a good deal or that the bike was worth buying.
 
I have it direct from the Zero folks that they are E-Moli's cells
Jeff K.
 
Wish I had the money for one of those. So wait a second.. in that video clip Neal (the creator) said, "landfill approved". So are you telling me that I could take my spare dozen or so (mostly dead) emoli cells and just throw them in the trash?? :shock:

EDIT: He goes on to mention it's a "salt" battery... doesn't sound like emoli to me... hrmm...
 
Just got off the phone with a guy from Zero. He said the batteries are mangenese di-oxide manf in Canada so that sounds like the Emoli 'power' cell. http://www.molienergy.com/pdf/IMR18650E.pdf The person from Zero did also say that the batt could be thrown away when done.

I asked why they went with this chemistry over what appears to me to be the most popular LiFePo chemisty and he didn't really have a good answer for me.

He did say that Zero is coming out with 2 street bikes soon. One, a super-motard sytled bike and a street legal dual-sport style. He said the projected price is ~$9000 and the range will be 40 miles at 25mph. He did say that it would be freeway capable. This would work great for me on the island I live on because speeds are limited to 25mph.

How does that performance envelope sound to y'all?
 
The reason Motorcycle mfg. go with Lithium - Ion based chemistry is simple. It is the highest power density in the smallest package and for the cheapest price. The fact that it is not intrinsically "safe", has a much lower life cycle, and suffers cap fade is overlooked because of the other factors aforementioned. Because of these factors the Motorcycle mfg. often look at the batteries as disposable. For a performance bike this is probably acceptable ?

Don Harmon :mrgreen:
 
Your'e right Don,
they are so proud of their quick change batt-housing, they put a patent on it. :wink:
The other reason could be, that they took a long time to develope their batt-pack and started way before the LiFePO-hype began.
I'm sure we will see BOSCH, Milwaukee etc. have LiFePO tools soon. For the same reason.
Olaf
 
Don Harmon said:
The reason Motorcycle mfg. go with Lithium - Ion based chemistry is simple. It is the highest power density in the smallest package and for the cheapest price. The fact that it is not intrinsically "safe", has a much lower life cycle, and suffers cap fade is overlooked because of the other factors aforementioned. Because of these factors the Motorcycle mfg. often look at the batteries as disposable. For a performance bike this is probably acceptable ?

Don Harmon :mrgreen:
Click to expand...

Now you sell LiFePo's don't you Don? To be honest I havent yet decided which chem is the best but I have talked to several smart people (University Researcher Types) who don't have a lot of love for LiFePo batteries. They don't like the power density of them-In fact they generally tell me that they are the least capable of the different Li-Ion batt chemistries. They are used primarily because they are safe is what I'm told.

Daniel Neumansky
Alameda CA
 
madmadscientist said:
Just got off the phone with a guy from Zero. He said the batteries are mangenese di-oxide manf in Canada so that sounds like the Emoli 'power' cell. http://www.molienergy.com/pdf/IMR18650E.pdf The person from Zero did also say that the batt could be thrown away when done.

I asked why they went with this chemistry over what appears to me to be the most popular LiFePo chemisty and he didn't really have a good answer for me.

He did say that Zero is coming out with 2 street bikes soon. One, a super-motard sytled bike and a street legal dual-sport style. He said the projected price is ~$9000 and the range will be 40 miles at 25mph. He did say that it would be freeway capable. This would work great for me on the island I live on because speeds are limited to 25mph.

How does that performance envelope sound to y'all?
Click to expand...

they will be at the expo this coming weekend in santa monica.... in case anyone in so. cal is nearby and wants to see them person to person.
 
madmadscientist said:
Don Harmon said:
The reason Motorcycle mfg. go with Lithium - Ion based chemistry is simple. It is the highest power density in the smallest package and for the cheapest price. The fact that it is not intrinsically "safe", has a much lower life cycle, and suffers cap fade is overlooked because of the other factors aforementioned. Because of these factors the Motorcycle mfg. often look at the batteries as disposable. For a performance bike this is probably acceptable ?

Don Harmon :mrgreen:
Click to expand...

Now you sell LiFePo's don't you Don? To be honest I havent yet decided which chem is the best but I have talked to several smart people (University Researcher Types) who don't have a lot of love for LiFePo batteries. They don't like the power density of them-In fact they generally tell me that they are the least capable of the different Li-Ion batt chemistries. They are used primarily because they are safe is what I'm told.

Daniel Neumansky
Alameda CA
Click to expand...

Yes, Daniel we do sell LiFePO4 which is tied with the Manganese version as far as power density in the Li-Ion family, but offers far superior life cycles and does not suffer thermal runaway as do the Li-Ion cells which makes them a better choice for EV use. You pick your poison. We also make the 40138 (10Ah) cells which allows us to use far fewer cells in a system than the pure Lithium (18650 format) cells. Fewer cells + extremely long life means better performance in an EV application where a car battery is expected to last 10 years or 150,000 miles.

View attachment energy comparison.jpg

Don Harmon :mrgreen:
 
Hmmm... it's this 10 year claim that bugs me personally...

I run LiMn on my daily driver, the packs ( 2 x 36v ) are on their 3rd year calender life, still going strong.. i use this bike as my daily driver ( charged 5 days a week, and sometimes on weekends ) .. i managed so far about 6 months of this so lets say 100 cycles per year to be generous, more like 60 to 80 as i can do 3 days before charging with 20ah on board..

3000 cycles ?.. I call BS ..even shallow cycles. not at the rates we use on EV's !

If the zero can burn thru the life of the pack in 5 years of good use, then LiMn weighs less and takes less space.. every gram counts on a MX bike, so does volume ! ie: LiMn it is !
 
No LiFePO4 will last 10 years right now - not even A123. The car companies know this too!

Don :mrgreen:
 
Don Harmon said:
No LiFePO4 will last 10 years right now - not even A123.
Click to expand...

It's a completely moot point regardless of validity as in just several years there will likely be another generation or two better batteries (especially as demand ramps up exponentially). That's why, for ebikers anyway, Nicad and to a lesser degree SLA are still totally justifiable.
 
pwbset said:
Don Harmon said:
No LiFePO4 will last 10 years right now - not even A123.
Click to expand...

It's a completely moot point regardless of validity as in just several years there will likely be another generation or two better batteries (especially as demand ramps up exponentially). That's why, for ebikers anyway, Nicad and to a lesser degree SLA are still totally justifiable.
Click to expand...

Shure it is if you want to haul around the weight of SLA and endure the voltage sag it's fine for ebikers. And if you can even find NiCad anymore go for it. The environmental costs of making Nicad have about killed that chemistry by now.

Don :mrgreen:
 
Don, I am curious. Why would you defend any battery lasting ten years if there have not been any on the market, in real-world testing, for that period? Pick your poison, indeed. Gambling $6k, plus or minus, on a pack is just that at this time--a gamble. If they were priced considerably lower, maybe more folks would come to the casino, eh?
Jeff K.
 
Where do I defend a battery that lasts ten years. I believe I said a car battery hasn't been proven to last that long. We are working on it and also on bringing down pricing so more people can pull up to the tables too! :mrgreen:

Don
 
Sorry Don, I misread the post about ten years. I am pleased that you feel prices will continue to get better.
Jeff K.
 
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