Doubt about whether to change the engine.

vicens

100 W
Joined
Aug 27, 2015
Messages
127
Location
Barcelona. Spain.
I have two bicycles, the bicycles are similar. The two bikes are hybrids.

The old bicycle is this:

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The new bicycle is this:

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The old bicycle has 700c42 tires, the new one has 700c35 tires.
The old bicycle has 24 speeds, three chainrings, eight threaded sprockets and a motor. The new bicycle has 18 speeds, with three chainrings and six threaded sprockets.

On the old bicycle I have a ninecontinent 9c engine, I think it's the 2808, the engine is old. The old bicycle has several things to fix, it has cracked rims and that's why I don't use it. The rim of the tire would have to be changed for another one and more things fixed. The motor is 500w without gears, the battery is 47V (13S), the maximum speed in assistance is 42 kmh, but I have it limited to 25kmh, here the maximum legal speed in Spain is 25kmh and speeds of 40kmh I They seem to be dangerous.

The old bicycle has saddlebags, where I can carry things in the back, in the back, in the saddlebag I have the battery and the controller, the motor is rear, the battery is 13s7p with 3350mah sanyo cells, the battery is 822Wh. The bicycle has a problem with the weight, it weighs 25Kg, it weighs too much, and much of the weight is at the back, riding a bike there is no problem, if the bicycle is stopped, you tilt it a little and hold it by the handlebars, the front wheel will move. lift it up and you have to hold it from behind, if you want to put the bicycle in the car it's a problem, it weighs too much.

The new bike weighs 14kg, it has a normal weight and there is no problem when tilting the bike, there is no problem when putting it in the car.

The problem with the new bicycle is that where I live there are many hills, when the hills come it is very difficult for me to go up the hills and after some hills I end up exhausted, with no desire to take the bike again, if I use the bicycle on flat ground there is no problem if I go slowly from 10 to 20 kmh.

I am overweight, I weigh 120kg. I have a problem with all bicycles, after a few months or years of cycling the spokes of the rear wheels of all the bicycles break, on the old bicycle the spokes have resisted and cracks have appeared in the rim of the rim.

The problem with the power, I have the controller set to 17A, since with more amps it seems that the motor has a lot of force and the motor does not assist well at high speed (15-25kmh). When hitting a hill and slowing down to 10 km/h, the engine feels like it's running out of power, which forces me to put more force on the pedals to go up the hill. I have looked at the ebikes.ca simulator, as you lower speed the efficiency decreases and the amount of power generated by the motor decreases. I have looked at the simulator with a 36V battery with more amps in the controller, the power curve is the same as at 47V, but the 47V curve has a higher maximum speed, 32kmh for 36V, 42kmh for 47V. Is this correct simulation? Doesn't less volts and more amps give more strength to climb hills?

The controller is a kt with an LCD screen3, 36 and 48V, the controller is 25A.

The battery is rectangular, do you recommend I put a bag and put the battery in the central part of the bicycle or under the handlebars of the bicycle? It would be to distribute the weight, I don't have the bag, I would have to study it.

Would it be good for me to change the rear engine for a front one? to have the weight more distributed.

Would it be good for me to change the motor for a 350w front cute q100h with gears? Is the cute q100H motor in the ebikes.ca simulator or is there something similar? I would like to compare before buying.

Would the 201 rpm q100h cute be good for me if I use it at 36 or 48V?

Is it better to use a 36v battery than a 47V one?

If you do not change the engine. Can you see this rim for repair? https://www.bike-discount.de/es/dt-swiss-535-llanta-de-28

What do you think of this aliexprees kit? https://es.aliexpress.com/item/1005005173208723.html

If I change the engine, what power would be recommended? When I ride a bicycle I want to pedal all the time
 
You are covering many subjects here. Let's see if I can list them all:

  1. Make ebike out of new bike by swapping e-parts from old ebike, OR upgrade motor, controller, and battery for better hillclimbing.
  2. Rebuild rear wheel for better reliability for higher weight.
  3. Move battery from rear pannier to triangle.
  4. Maybe change RWD to FWD?
  5. Request review of Aliexpress kit.
Did I miss any?
 
Yes, all of these.

Taking into account the motor, battery and controller. Would it be advisable to give more amps to the controller?

I want to use the new bike, I don't want to use the old bike.

Change from rwd to fwd if better.

Change the engine for another one, if it is better for climbing hills.

Can the wheel be rebuilt to support more weight?
 
I am overweight, I weigh 120kg. I have a problem with all bicycles, after a few months or years of cycling the spokes of the rear wheels of all the bicycles break, on the old bicycle the spokes have resisted and cracks have appeared in the rim of the rim.

That's not your weight or the bike's. It's poor quality wheels that were made to sell to low-information buyers instead of made to last.

I have built wheels for myself that were utterly reliable at loads of 225+ kg. They're just about the last reliability concern on my own e-bikes; everything else fails first. But you have to let go of the idea that thicker spokes somehow make wheels stronger, and you have to build them right. No using half-starved Chinese orphans to build your wheels. No lacing all the spokes inside the flanges even though that takes their bracing angle down to near zero.
 
Just a minor comment on the bike weight: once you add a 6kg motor and a 4kg battery to the new bike, it will also weigh 24kg (27 kg actually if you believe the weight of 17kg given by Amazon Italy).

I am planning to do a similar thing for battery placement, putting it on the rear rack. Your description of the bike behavior when you hold or lift it is starting to make me reevaluate that idea. Maybe better attach the battery to the down tube?

I don't really see a big difference between the two bikes, except that the old one has an eight speed cassette and the new one a six speed. As 99t4 seems to hint at, getting a new front motor kit for the new bike might be more cost effective than relacing a new rim for the old bike.
 
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That's not your weight or the bike's. It's poor quality wheels that were made to sell to low-information buyers instead of made to last.

I have built wheels for myself that were utterly reliable at loads of 225+ kg. They're just about the last reliability concern on my own e-bikes; everything else fails first. But you have to let go of the idea that thicker spokes somehow make wheels stronger, and you have to build them right. No using half-starved Chinese orphans to build your wheels. No lacing all the spokes inside the flanges even though that takes their bracing angle down to near zero.

Do you think the fault is the poor quality spokes and rim?

I have measured the spokes and they are 2.6mm, a single measurement.

I bought the Ninecontinent engine second-hand, it had a 26" rim. I was talking to a store in my country that sold electrical kits with the same engine. The guy at the store sent me the rim rim and the spokes. He The store told me that it was quality, that it was better than the Chinese kits, the rim says power circle, just like some Chinese kits. This is the second wheel I have mounted.

The first wheel I built, I bought a cute q100 motor, three sizes of dt swiss spokes and the dt swiss rim. I think the spokes were 2.0-1.6-2.3 mm. This rim never broke, the rim or the spokes broke.

For the Ninecontinent engine, I did not buy the three-size spokes, nor the better rim because it was more expensive and because I had to buy both things in different stores, the shipping costs raised the price a lot.
 
Do you think the fault is the poor quality spokes and rim?

Yes, one or the other, or both. But if the spokes are too thick, they cause problems even if their quality is good.

12ga spokes (2.7mm) are too thick for any bicycle rims. 13ga spokes (2.3mm) are too thick for most bicycle rims. 14ga spokes (2.0mm) and under are appropriate for bicycle rims. The thinner they are, the larger the loads they can carry reliably.

The guy at the store sent me the rim rim and the spokes. He The store told me that it was quality, that it was better than the Chinese kit

He might have been correct, but he sold you motorcycle spokes, and those don't work with bicycle rims.
 
Just a minor comment on the bike weight: once you add a 6kg motor and a 4kg battery to the new bike, it will also weigh 24kg (27 kg actually if you believe the weight of 17kg given by Amazon Italy).

I am planning to do a similar thing for battery placement, putting it on the rear rack. Your description of the bike behavior when you hold or lift it is starting to make me reevaluate that idea. Maybe better attach the battery to the down tube?

I don't really see a big difference between the two bikes, except that the old one has an eight speed cassette and the new one a six speed. As 99t4 seems to hint at, getting a new front motor kit for the new bike might be more cost effective than relacing a new rim for the old bike.

The problem I see is the weight, a 250w or 350w gear motor weighs 2 or 2.5Kg, the motor I have I think weighs 6Kg. Changing the engine would reduce the weight and if it is front the weight would be better distributed.

Before having this battery I had a 51V (16s) 15Ah lifepo4 battery, it took up twice as much space and weighed twice as much as this one, I sold it because it weighed too much.

Regarding the battery, if you have the battery, try putting it behind and under the down tube along with the mounted motor.

If you don't have the battery, you can try putting something that weighs the same and try tilting the bike while stopped.

The new bike seems of poorer quality and has fewer gears.
 
Yes, one or the other, or both. But if the spokes are too thick, they cause problems even if their quality is good.

12ga spokes (2.7mm) are too thick for any bicycle rims. 13ga spokes (2.3mm) are too thick for most bicycle rims. 14ga spokes (2.0mm) and under are appropriate for bicycle rims. The thinner they are, the larger the loads they can carry reliably.



He might have been correct, but he sold you motorcycle spokes, and those don't work with bicycle rims.

Regarding the spokes, shouldn't it be the other way around?

The 1.6mm spokes are thinner, if you load the bike with a lot of weight the spokes end up stretching and when hitting potholes they end up breaking. 2.0mm spokes would be more resistant, when you load the bike with a lot of weight they should be more resistant. I'm wrong?

Long spokes have the capacity to stretch more than short spokes, the large engine has short spokes. Could it be part of the problem?
 
Regarding the spokes, shouldn't it be the other way around?

The 1.6mm spokes are thinner, if you load the bike with a lot of weight the spokes end up stretching and when hitting potholes they end up breaking.

That's not how spokes work. Their main reaction to loads is to loosen, not tighten. Thin ones stay taut, thick ones go slack and unscrew. While they're slack they can't support the rim.

But your incorrect impression is why Chinese hub motor sellers assume the use of stupidly thick spokes.
 
That's not how spokes work. Their main reaction to loads is to loosen, not tighten. Thin ones stay taut, thick ones go slack and unscrew. While they're slack they can't support the rim.

But your incorrect impression is why Chinese hub motor sellers assume the use of stupidly thick spokes.

What size do you recommend for the rear wheel of my bicycle?

1.6mm 1.8mm or 2.0mm spokes?

I've been reading about spokes for a wheel with sprockets.

They recommend 1.6mm spokes on the left side and 2.0mm spokes on the right side. The recommendation is because the spokes on the left side are more inclined and the spokes on the right side are more vertical. By tightening the spokes they will fit better than using a single measurement. Would this be a good setup on my bike?
 
What size do you recommend for the rear tire of my bicycle?

1.6mm 1.8mm or 2.0mm spokes?

My default spoke size is 2.0/1.8mm double butted. For wheels with a lot of offset, 2 0/1.8 on the tight side and 2.0/1.5 on the loose side.

Hub motors often require weird lengths that aren't available in double butted spokes. For those I use 2.0mm straight gauge or 2.3/2.0mm single butted.
 
My default spoke size is 2.0/1.8mm double butted. For wheels with a lot of offset, 2 0/1.8 on the tight side and 2.0/1.5 on the loose side.

Hub motors often require weird lengths that aren't available in double butted spokes. For those I use 2.0mm straight gauge or 2.3/2.0mm single butted.

Thank you so much.

Now I have to decide if I change the spokes, the rim and keep the engine, or if I change to a smaller front engine.
 
Are the front forks capable of running a hub motor. Those look like so-so suspension forks, and motorizing those is a no-no.
 
If you have the skills to rebuild the wheel, my suggestion is to rebuild your rear wheel with appropriate spokes and quality rim.


Crack developing on ebikeling rim sidewall-- need to repair | Endless Sphere DIY EV Forum

The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips | Page 11 | Endless Sphere DIY EV Forum
 
If you have the skills to rebuild the wheel, my suggestion is to rebuild your rear wheel with appropriate spokes and quality rim.


Crack developing on ebikeling rim sidewall-- need to repair | Endless Sphere DIY EV Forum

The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips | Page 11 | Endless Sphere DIY EV Forum
Good summary of spoke elasticity vs strength: https://wheelbuilder.co.za/plain-gauge-vs-butted-spokes/
ebikes.ca also has a spoke length calculator, and videos on this topic (linked from same page).
Also pretty cool: bicyclewheel.info . Who would have thunk that somebody wrote a thesis on bicycle wheels?!
 
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Thank you so much.

I'm going to change the rim and put in new spokes.

I have doubts. I will look at all the links and if I still have doubts I will ask again.

Looking at the calculator I get this:

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The 196mm spokes are the closest.

For the rim and spoke I want to use these:


 
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Can the spokes be 14G (2.00mm) in one size?

I can't find double or triple size spokes in 196mm length.

Are the spokes stronger if I put washers on the nipples?
 
I can't find double or triple size spokes in 196mm length.
Try these. Many of us have had good results with them:

Are the spokes stronger if I put washers on the nipples?
Doesn't make the spokes stronger but can reinforce the rim at the spoke holes, depends on the rim design and hole sizing in relation to the nipple type and size.

Use these washers on the hubmotor flange side if the flange holes are too large for the spoke j-bend size, or if the flanges are too narrow:
 
Try these. Many of us have had good results with them:


Doesn't make the spokes stronger but can reinforce the rim at the spoke holes, depends on the rim design and hole sizing in relation to the nipple type and size.

Use these washers on the hubmotor flange side if the flange holes are too large for the spoke j-bend size, or if the flanges are too narrow:

I have asked the store if they ship to Spain.
 
Can the spokes be 14G (2.00mm) in one size?

I can't find double or triple size spokes in 196mm length.

Yes, that works just fine.

Are the spokes stronger if I put washers on the nipples?

Washers are to keep the spoke heads from digging into or pulling through holes in the hub. As a side effect, they can also allow the hub holes to better support the elbows.
 
Try these. Many of us have had good results with them:


Doesn't make the spokes stronger but can reinforce the rim at the spoke holes, depends on the rim design and hole sizing in relation to the nipple type and size.

Use these washers on the hubmotor flange side if the flange holes are too large for the spoke j-bend size, or if the flanges are too narrow:

They told me they can send them to me.

Which nipple do you recommend I buy? There are many models to buy.

I like the silver spokes.
 
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