E-bike fires - the data, the recording and the incoming risk of closure to reputable shops/brands

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Hi all,

Bit of a long read for you here, but one that I think will interest everyone.

I've been conducting a bit of an investigation into the reality behind 'electric bike' fires and consistently found that reputable manufacturers have a near zero rate of instance, but are facing the brunt of headlines regardless.

Insurers are now pricing specialists out of policy cover, risking the closure of hundreds of bike shops that explicitly do not handle modifications, kits or anything non-standard. Meanwhile, the direct-market unregulated kits that the data shows are causing the adverse headlines are landing unchecked.

The findings here

E-bike fires - the facts
 
I have only quickly scanned over the article so far but the term "reputable" carries a lot of weight. As far as I saw, the article mentions Giant and Bosch but otherwise no help for the reader to recognize what "reputable" means. How does the novice recognize a reputable manufacturer or shop from non-reputable?
 
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Sellers of bikes that have closed systems and motors that require servicing by an authorised dealer are hardly reputable..

And they have the audacity to whinge about competition from fair priced generic systems that put their crappy app reliant restrictive systems to shame, highlighting them as the polished turds they are..
 
Sellers of bikes that have closed systems and motors that require servicing by an authorised dealer are hardly reputable..
AMEN ! .... we need good 'Right To Repair' laws.
 
Sellers of bikes that have closed systems and motors that require servicing by an authorised dealer are hardly reputable..

And they have the audacity to whinge about competition from fair priced generic systems that put their crappy app reliant restrictive systems to shame, highlighting them as the polished turds they are..

Louis Rossmann also believes in right to repair...... but now he knows not to use Unit Pack Power when building an ebike:


Note: Louis Rossmann's previous two ebike builds (which he described in the above video) used EM3EV batteries....he said no problems with those to this day.
 
AMEN ! .... we need good 'Right To Repair' laws.
Build it yourself and it is pretty easy to maintain that right to repair. :)

I will point people back to Grin's talk on e-bike battery fires. One of the key takeaways is to know what brand and type of cells are being used.
 
Build it yourself and it is pretty easy to maintain that right to repair. :)

I will point people back to Grin's talk on e-bike battery fires. One of the key takeaways is to know what brand and type of cells are being used.
True enough but I have not aged gracefully and I have down sized. I prefer LiFePO4 cylindrical cells with threaded terminals based batteries (i.e. headway). These days I do not have the space, tools, resources and/or inclination to do much along the lines of DIY construction. My latest order is for a 'manufactured' PuckiPuppy Husky Trike. I will just have to live with the battery that it comes with.
 
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Here is one way:


You really expect the novice prospective ebike purchaser to search around byzantine gov websites for detailed reports on problematical batteries to help decide their purchase?
 
You really expect the novice prospective ebike purchaser to search around byzantine gov websites for detailed reports on problematical batteries to help decide their purchase?
Yes, by the time an ev user needs to replace a battery they will have had enough 'immersion into the EV culture' to be nominally battery aware imho.
 
SOLUTION IS SIMPLE

FePO4 CELLS

yes they cost a bit more
yes they have a bit less power

BUT they do not burn down the place

is there any USA SHOP doing swaps of fire cells tesla style
for non burning units FePO4 for bikes or scooters
 
SOLUTION IS SIMPLE

FePO4 CELLS

yes they cost a bit more
yes they have a bit less power

BUT they do not burn down the place

You missed the downsides:
- They're typically 2x heavier/larger per watt hour, meaning you get half the battery at the same weight.
- Most cells have way lower power output

is there any USA SHOP doing swaps of fire cells tesla style
for non burning units FePO4 for bikes or scooters

Never heard of it - it would be more economical to just buy a new battery because you need a new BMS and have a different cell count too.

Very few people are willing to buy this kind of battery.
 
The problem that causes most of the fires is not really the chemistry, it is the poor construction of the packs, and the poor (or complete lack of) quality control of the cells being used.

(if you use a poorly made LiFePO4 cell, it's no safer than any other cell, and realistically, most of the cells out there of *any* chemistry are either poorly made, or they are recycled garbage out of failed batteries that were sent to recycling so they wouldn't end up causing fires somewhere...but recycling to people that build packs means re-using existing (defective and/or damaged!) cells, not recyclng the materials to make new *good* cells).

And the improper design and construction of the BMS controlling charge/discharge of the cells, and the improper design and construction of the charger used to charge them, and the mismatch of charger to battery (too high a charge current, especially as the cells age, etc).


Any battery can burn, regardless of chemistry. It just takes the right conditions to trigger the fire; once the energy release begins, there are "always" materials surrounding the cells that will burn and heat the cells further, contributing to the cell fire itself--but even if no further cells burn, the fire is already started in the materials (plastics, etc).

Since many fires happen when no one is there or monitoring whatever the source of the fire is, and most fires spread extremely quickly, it doesn't take the cells themselves burning to cause the fire to engulf an entire building.


Fires happen because of cells overheating and burning, but they also happen because the charger itself overheats internally, and wiring insulation (or transformer windings) fails allowing conductors to short, and fuses either not being correctly sized to blow in this event, or not even being present (with the spot for them wired across during manufacture, or bypassed by someone later on because "well, it kept blowing the fuse so I bypassed it". :roll: ).

They also happen because the BMS is designed poorly, or made with incorrect parts for the design and/or usage, and the FETs either overheat and eventually ignite the battery casing or wrapping, or the FETs fail stuck on (their most common failure mode) so they cannot stop charge and/or discharge from occuring.

In the latter failure, if a the wrong charger is used (too high a voltage) or a faulty charger (with too high a voltage) it will then overcharge the cells, and that damages them, and that damage can lead to a fire.

Similarly, mismatched cells without a BMS (which includes a BMS that has shorted FETs) would overcharge the weakest cells with the least capacity, which are already the worst-behaving and worst-properties cells, that likely heat up the most and/or already have internal damage causing their problems to begin with.

That also allows overdischarge of those cells, and so you end up with both things happening repeatedly, until a cell eventually just plain fails--it might do so benignly, but it might also do so catastrophically.

The above also applies to the unfortunately not uncomon "well, the BMS kept turning the pack off while I was riding it, or keeping me from charging, so I bypassed the FETs" (instead of fixing the actual problem of old / defective cells by replacing all of the cells with new matched ones).

The above only covers (briefly!) some of the possible failure modes that can cause a fire--there are various others including interconnect failures, cell insulation failure, environmental intrusion, wire routing allowing breakage or short, etc., that would take a few more pages to describe / list.



Since (even if it were possible to do without disassembling and testing all the individual cells in a pack, which it isn't) people are not going to make sure all the cells in all the packs they're working with are always still good, well-matched, and that all the BMSes are correctly functioning, and all the electronics in their chargers are functional, every time they use them, then there are going to continue to be battery fires.


If all the electronics were actually correctly designed, and built correctly with all the required parts, and all used genuine parts that had sufficient safety margins, and all the cells used were well-matched with each other (identical in all properties) with proper quality control processes, and assembled correctly in a pack that was designed to withstand all the uses to which it will be put (including the various mishaps that are *going* to happen to some of them in any normal usage)...there would probably be a lot less fires.

Oh, also, if the packs and chargers were all completely potted and sealed so the end-users and shops could (would) not open them and screw around with the safety features to bypass them instead of actually fixing any problems that show up..... ;)

I am completely for the right to repair...but if you're not actually going to repair a battery, BMS, or charger, don't frock with it. :p

Since few people will actually bother to fix one of these things properly, it's safer if it's difficult to get into them to damage them further / make them into firebombs waiting to happen.


(if you don't know what I'm talking about, just look around this forum and you'll find various examples of "oh, I'm not going to fix it, just bypassing it because (whatever reason)").
 
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Besides what has already been written about Lithium Iron phosphate I think there can be a lot of problems when adding a substantially heavier battery to a bike particularly if it is a DIY conversion.

For example, If the battery being heavier affects balance to the point where the bike has an increased chance of crashing or tipping over....or if the battery being heavier means it has an increased chance of detaching from the bike when hitting a bump.....then there is damage to the battery that could reduce safety.
 
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coming from a boat not yacht prospective they do not allow fire cells on a boat
to many fires with no way to extinguish short of throwing the battery in the water

so no reuse of old tesla type car cells for hi amp low volt systems
all the pro's doing boats say only LiFePO4 no others allowed

I guess the lower priced LiFePO4 now common will be used by smarter bike builders in the future
just as the carmakers like tesla are now swapping to LiFePO4

I am surprised no eazy replacement are offered now for fire cells
 
E-bike fires - the facts

London Fire Brigade data for 2022 suggested that of 74 fires it badged as potential ‘e-bike’ issues, at least 58% had post-market conversion kits identifiable in the wreckage. This once again would take these instances of fire out of what can legally be said to be an e-bike, arguably particularly so in London where the food delivery market is a visible sector where e-bike modifications are performed that are technically illegal to use on the road.

The UK study looked at 121 electrical battery fires, where 36 were identified as e-scooters and 74 were ebikes. Of the ebikes, maybe 43 were DIY conversions. London has 8.8 million people, Even my town with 120K people had a big ebike fire last year, Well, it's not the DIY motors. It's the batteries we put in.

When I started converting bikes, my first battery was a chinese pack from the company that became pswpower. The others were Luna batteries. At that time, their main arrribute was that they used Samsung cells. They used the same assembly techniques. Then I bought UPP packs, mostly upgraded to Samsung, Never had a battery with premium cells going unbalanced or draining down to nothing over the winter.

Meanwhile, I tried the cheap shrinkwrapped chinese packs. Lots of trouble with failed cells. Learned that there is no repair. Scrap them. I will never buy any more, but still have two that seem to work well. One has thousands of miles w/o any capacity loss, but it would seem prudent after watching the Grin video to scrap them too,







.
 
SOLUTION IS SIMPLE

FePO4 CELLS

yes they cost a bit more
yes they have a bit less power

BUT they do not burn down the place

is there any USA SHOP doing swaps of fire cells tesla style
for non burning units FePO4 for bikes or scooters

Naw man, nickel iron alkali cells are where it's at for fire safety. You go get some of those for your bike, and the rest of us lunatics will buy shabby firebombs like the ones in a Volvo or a BMW. Those manufacturers are craaaazy risk takers like us.

In the meantime we can all read these reports by the light of gasoline vehicle fires, which are roughly 100 times more likely.
 
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When I started converting bikes, my first battery was a chinese pack from the company that became pswpower. The others were Luna batteries. At that time, their main arrribute was that they used Samsung cells. They used the same assembly techniques. Then I bought UPP packs, mostly upgraded to Samsung, Never had a battery with premium cells going unbalanced or draining down to nothing over the winter.

On the UPP packs that both the US and UK banned the problem wasn't the type of cells by rather the construction of the pack. This in addition to insufficient BMS as well as lack of temp sensor:

Screenshot_20241201-085254.png

Notice how it says "poorly built with poor welding to connect the components" in the product safety report above.

Nothing is stated as the type of cells being the problem. As a matter of fact the battery pack Louis Rossman had used name brand cells and it also caught on fire.

Now granted this was only about the triangle packs but the fact remains UPP refused to recall these packs despite being caught red handed by two countries. And really why does a large company like UPP not have UL2271 certification (on any of their products) in 2024?
 
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Nonetheless, Tesla still puts out over a half million cars with NMC batteries. To getthe Cybertruck to do 0-60 in 3 second while pulling a Ford F150, you need the hot stuff.
 
Nonetheless, Tesla still puts out over a half million cars with NMC batteries. To getthe Cybertruck to do 0-60 in 3 second while pulling a Ford F150, you need the hot stuff.

And the Cyber truck gets that performance by using only half the available cell space.

That makes me wonder if the "hot stuff" in Cyber truck will be able to replaced by these new hybrid NMC LiFePO4 4680 cells.

One nice thing about the hybrid NMC LiFePO4 besides the higher voltage (3.8v) is the fact that they can also operate a higher temperature than standard LiFePO4. This in addition to actually having a longer cycle life than either NMC and LiFePO4. How does a hybrid NMC LiFePO4 cell that is mostly LiFePO4 have more cycles than a pure LiFePO4 cell? I'm intrigued!
 
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And the Cyber truck gets that performance by using only half the available cell space.

That makes me wonder if the "hot stuff" in Cyber truck will be able to replaced by these new hybrid NMN LiFePO4 4680 cells.

One nice thing about the hybrid NMN LiFePO4 besides the higher voltage (3.8v) is the fact that they also operate a higher temperature than standard LiFePO4. This in addition to actually having a longer cycle life than either NMN and LiFePO4. How does a hybrid NMN LiFePO4 cell that is mostly LiFePO4 have more cycles than a pure LiFePO4 cell? I'm intrigued!
as in most things in ads
the claim is too new to be a tested result
wait 10 years to see if real data

and is the NMN bit burning less or can sustain a fire or what

as the LiFePO4 can burn just not self start like the other Li-po batterys

I do not know if the NMN bit can start the LiFePO4 on fire without an other event like a impact hole or puncture
none is fire proof just harder to start


my guess is the mix NMN/LiFePO4 has less big crystal cell killing problems but no data yet
 
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