EM3ev vs Luna Batteries and Kits

[Stealth_Chopper]

Quality I see everyday, this Liquid Wolf.
Rugged by design, constructed like 'mil-spec' aircraft componentry.

 

[Fastest1]

Quality I see everyday, this Liquid Wolf.
Rugged by design, constructed like 'mil-spec' aircraft componentry.

Still waiting for the Pup! Though I do have a Wolf pack also.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[Bullfrog]

EM3ev battery update....

I was having trouble getting one of my parallel strings to balance correctly....never could get it to fully charge.

EM3ev sent me a replacement battery eventually so IMO they are awesome.

Decided to see what I could do with the battery that wouldn't completely balance...ended up going in and unplugging the balance lead and charging the individual strings seperately with a voltage supply and limiting the charging amperage to 2A. Monitored closely to ensure I did not exceed 4.2 volts while charging. Amazingly after manually charging each string to 4.2v, everything is working perfect and the string that wouldn't balance is charging up to the same voltage as all of the others.

If you attempt what I described above be careful! A metal (Li) fire is no joke and you and your property can be severely damaged or destroyed if you go too high with the amperage or the voltage!

 

[goatman]

fedex

I ordered some stuff from Luna (California USA) and I figured in the hidden cost of $44cdn FedEx Ground fee for international shipping to Canada from USA. I just wanted it sooner then months later (CycloneTW - China)

A few months ago there was another thread posted from a Canadian ES user asking about Luna and FedEx, I am too lazy to find the post. What happens with Canadians using FedEx ground from USA to CAD is you receive the shipment from Luna, and about 1 month later you get a happy letter in the mail from FedEx asking for additional C$44, its happened to me twice, the first time was a learning experience, the second time I knew the true cost.

The current problem I have is I cant get the Cyclone 4kw mounting plate off the BB on one side. It maybe just that the BB removal tool isnt long enough to get over the axle, thats why the BB tool barely fits in. I will be out of action for another 3 weeks and with covid prolonging over seas shipments who knows how long Cyclone Taiwan will take.

Luna, i used amazon pay thinking everything was covered, 6 months later i got my bill from fedex for $60, after the costs of converting usd to cad, shipping and broker fees a $125 usd charger cost me $270 cad.

when i had a simple question about the charger, i emailed Luna and they knew nothing about it....

Actually, their first reply was that i broke it and it wasnt under warranty
then when i replied back that it wasnt broken....
thats when they said they knew nothing about it

shouldve just bought the Cycle Satiator

 

[99t4]

when i had a simple question about the charger, i emailed Luna and they knew nothing about it....

Actually, their first reply was that i broke it and it wasnt under warranty
then when i replied back that it wasnt broken....
thats when they said they knew nothing about it

Sorry, wish there was a better resolution, but that is funny :lol:
At least the way you reported it here is funny to read

 

[tomjasz]

you receive the shipment from Luna, and about 1 month later you get a happy letter in the mail from FedEx asking for additional C$44, its happened to me twice, the first time was a learning experience, the second time I knew the true cost.

How is this a Luna issue?

 

[goatman]

you receive the shipment from Luna, and about 1 month later you get a happy letter in the mail from FedEx asking for additional C$44, its happened to me twice, the first time was a learning experience, the second time I knew the true cost.

How is this a Luna issue?

i was replying to markz, were both in Canada

if youre Canadian and buy from Luna, theres another bill coming, any other company ive purchased from in the USA or the UK, theres been no fedex bill months later, its already factored in.

 

[markz]

Yes, us Canadians have both received bills months later to pay an extra fee from FedEx for shipping from Luna in California.
I remember raising a stink with FedEx and they said its because it was shipped by FedEx Ground.

you receive the shipment from Luna, and about 1 month later you get a happy letter in the mail from FedEx asking for additional C$44, its happened to me twice, the first time was a learning experience, the second time I knew the true cost.

How is this a Luna issue?

i was replying to markz, were both in Canada EH

if youre Canadian and buy from Luna, theres another bill coming, any other company ive purchased from in the USA or the UK, theres been no fedex bill months later, its already factored in.

 

[tomjasz]

So ??ANY?? FedEx shipment is affected? I'm struggling to understand how this could be limited to Luna.

 

[goatman]

if im on a site and go to the check-out to pay
everything is paid for at that time
thats it, no more fees

if i want to buy a 18650 battery from Georgia
at check out itll be $4 for the battery and $25 for shipping
at check out the real price is $29 for that battery
no more bills
so at that moment i can say screw it, im not paying $29 for a $4 battery
or
i can buy 100 cells for $3 and pay $25 for shipping
or $3.25/battery delivered to my door

at Luna
i buy the charger and pay for shipping like everywhere else
i receive the package then a couple months later, out of the blue, you get another bill
Luna is the only one that doesnt include the real price of everything at the check-out

if i knew i would have to pay another $60 2 months later for a $125 item
i wouldnt have bought it.


every now and then ill get an email from Amazon saying theyve refunded my bank account because they had over charged on the shipping/customs/duty.

 

[markz]

I can't remember if I chose USPS or FedEx when I ordered and received the $40usd import fee from FedEx.
USPS might hand it off to FedEx.

if im on a site and go to the check-out to pay
everything is paid for at that time
thats it, no more fees

if i want to buy a 18650 battery from Georgia
at check out itll be $4 for the battery and $25 for shipping
at check out the real price is $29 for that battery
no more bills
so at that moment i can say screw it, im not paying $29 for a $4 battery
or
i can buy 100 cells for $3 and pay $25 for shipping
or $3.25/battery delivered to my door

at Luna
i buy the charger and pay for shipping like everywhere else
i receive the package then a couple months later, out of the blue, you get another bill
Luna is the only one that doesnt include the real price of everything at the check-out

if i knew i would have to pay another $60 2 months later for a $125 item
i wouldnt have bought it.


every now and then ill get an email from Amazon saying theyve refunded my bank account because they had over charged on the shipping/customs/duty.

 

[goatman]

i cant remember the purchase/shipping but i do remember using Amazon pay

heres whats funny
if i order from grin and need it delivered 40km's to my house, i think it was $50 for delivery
but i can order from Amazon.com and it will cost me only $8.33 shipping and no import fees
https://www.amazon.com/Universal-Pole-PAS-Sensor-CA3/dp/B07BNCYTLT/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=grin+technologies&qid=1618963847&sr=8-1

Grin used to have more stuff on Amazon, i swear the cycle satiator was but not anymore

 

[markz]

I have always found the shipping prices from Grin to Alberta were always very reasonable. I even checked out how much it was to ship a bare hub motor and I was surprised at how much it was, very reasonable prices IMHO. Now if you want to purchase connectors and get it shipped now thats a different story. My local electronics store has a minimum of $10 shipping to anywhere in Canada with prices going up as size and weight goes up. A big $600 Pelican case is $35 shipped within same city, and double to ship across Canada. 50lbs 29"W X 13"L X 13"D) VOLUME 80QT TAN
But a bare hub motor from grintech is $26 s/h across Canada.

i cant remember the purchase/shipping but i do remember using Amazon pay

heres whats funny
if i order from grin and need it delivered 40km's to my house, i think it was $50 for delivery
but i can order from Amazon.com and it will cost me only $8.33 shipping and no import fees
https://www.amazon.com/Universal-Pole-PAS-Sensor-CA3/dp/B07BNCYTLT/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=grin+technologies&qid=1618963847&sr=8-1

Grin used to have more stuff on Amazon, i swear the cycle satiator was but not anymore

 

[tomjasz]

Boatman, I despise Luna. But it’s not them. Get a grip.

 

[Stealth_Chopper]

I was considering getting a pack from EM3ev but decided on the Luna Wolf V2 (30Q cells) for the solid construction and magnetic mounting system that's included. It is being used with a Crystalyte H3525, Grinfineon C7240 controller, and CA V3. The controller limits it to 40A so I can't vouch for the 50A BMS limit, but the battery has been great over just a few full cycles with my inefficient throttle management.

SO you bought the 30Q cells four years ago - high performance quick discharge - use your battery pack in some completely inverse manner by discharging to the BMS low limit often over some extended period for no reason and using long charge and discharge cycles. You've now torn into the pack and decided the manufacturer's BMS got it all wrong? and your new 72V design is AOK.
Yup.

 

[bww129]

Hate away without any details... or read on for more information. The pack was purchased in March of 2020 and I've used it in the spring/summer/fall since 2020. A couple of times in the snow in 2020 too! The potting is a nice weather proof feature and works really well.

Using the battery pack in the "completely inverse manner" you describe isn't misuse and should be totally acceptable because the cells are designed to handle that and the BMS is designed to prevent overdischarge by cutting off. When it cuts out you have to reconnect the pack to a charger for the BMS to reconnect the cells to the output connector. Granted a lot of people are more gentle with their packs, but the cells are designed to have 60% capacity after 250 maximum continuous discharges (that's to 2.5V cutoff at 15A per cell). With the controller capping draw to 40A that's 10A per cell which is 67% of the max continuous under the assumption that each individual cell level fuse is still intact. The fuses should all be intact because they were designed to handle 15A continuous (pack was rated at 50A). If the unbalancing is because of cell level fuses that blew from less than maximum continuous use then it's a manufacturing defect that is conveniently hidden until after the warranty is out. Pretty clever way to make you buy a new pack every few years!

About half the time it was charged to 100% which should have balanced the cells, but I also used the 90% setting the rest of the time. For the winter I would discharge it to about 50-60% while it was stored in the basement. None of this should have been a problem yet the cells are way out of whack... which points to the one thing that is supposed to keep the cells balanced - the BMS.

I have Lipo battery packs from Hobbyking (for RC and for the bike) that are just as old as this and they're still good because I have a charger that properly balance charges them. The Luna Wolf pack gives you zero control over balancing at the expense of durability, which was great at the time, but not so much now. So to answer your question: YES, the BMS is subpar, especially for a battery this expensive. I hacked into it because it's way out of warranty and Luna doesn't sell individual batteries anymore. What would you do in this situation? At least I'm trying to fix it.

My 66-67V pack is 3 x 6S Hobbyking packs which have no BMS and are still working. I wanted to see what the controller/motor can do at 72V/50A and it was more than I wanted/needed! I've used these packs less because I never constructed a housing to protect them. It was just easier to put the Luna Wolf on the bike and go for a ride.

The main reason I suspect the BMS is because I have quite a bit of experience with Milwaukee M18 HD12 battery packs that have a very similar behavior to the Luna Wolf pack. When used moderately (full discharge in 2-3 hours) the cells get pretty unbalanced after a few months because the quick charger and/or internal BMS has a high termination current that does not give the under-designed internal BMS enough time to properly balance the cells (can only route ~50mA around each cell) before it terminates the balancing. This is a poor design from a very reputable company that designed their own electronics. Continued use causes the pack to get more and more unbalanced until it throws a fault code and you have to return it under warranty. There's no way for us to tell if the Luna pack throws a fault.

You can bring the M18 packs back to life by taking them apart and charging each cell group back up. That's what I'm attempting to do with the Luna pack.

 

[Diggs]

You can bring the M18 packs back to life by taking them apart and charging each cell group back up. That's what I'm attempting to do with the Luna pack.

I did hear you say your say your Luna pack is potted? How would you take it apart? I have a (retired) Wolf pack (Samsung cells) from 2019. It lasted for only 3 summers of light use (~50-60 charge cycles). Its capacity has dropped to about 7ah from the original 12.5ah. Another peculiarity is when it is balancing at 58.8 volts on the charge port the output port is 57.7 volts (pointing to bad cells?). I can't get into the thing to try and figure out what's going on. Mine is not the clear pack -

 

[Bullfrog]

Want your battery to last longer, take a look at the charging options in the graph below:

 

[Diggs]

Want your battery to last longer, take a look at the charging options in the graph below:

Which for me is one of the reasons I run two packs in parallel. I usually only charge to 80% except when balancing and can still get a 75 mile ride. IDK - I used to think maybe I should have been charging more to 100% to better balance the pack, but @bww129 did that and still had the same problems I had.

 

[Bullfrog]

Which for me is one of the reasons I run two packs in parallel. I usually only charge to 80% except when balancing and can still get a 75 mile ride. IDK - I used to think maybe I should have been charging more to 100% to better balance the pack, but @bww129 did that and still had the same problems I had.

Just FYI, the smart BMS that EM3ev uses will balance the cell groups at any voltage above 3.92v per cell...that works out to about 54.9v for a 14s battery and 3.92v per cell is supposed to be the voltage that is "neutral" as far as the cathode and anode degrading.

I charge my battery to 54.9v after riding and then charge it higher if I plan to do a longer ride. I don't charge over 4.1v per cell ever...which is 57.4 got two reasons...A. You get very little increase in capacity by going from 4.1/57.4 to 4.2/58.8 and B. It is a lot easier on your cells than charging to 4.2/58.8.

 

[Stealth_Chopper]

HEY ! Fellas It's NOT about the state of charge 66 80 90 HIKE : as documented by test extensively herein on this forum by Pajda

Cycle life tests of High Power density cylindrical cells

"Standard Power Rate" test (1C continuous discharge) note: the 1C discharge test is performed at ca 90% DoD (4.15V-3.00V) Test eqiupment: - 2pcs ZKETECH EBC-X0510 - BF-2A four-wire cell fixture (10A version with Nickel plated contacts) - tested in room with relatively stable temperature 23 ±2...

endless-sphere.com

Failure {DENDRITES} is about manufacturing methods like those sloppy resistive soldered joints and ZAPPY crappy covered up cheapo spot welded corroded strips being shaken and dropped daily.

 

[bww129]

Just FYI, the smart BMS that EM3ev uses will balance the cell groups at any voltage above 3.92v per cell...

That's a great design that will ensure higher pack capacity over a longer period of time because the cells will almost always be balanced after a charge cycle.

Unfortunately the Luna packs use a BMS that appears to only balance at a higher voltage, and the balance current is likely a bit too low for a 4P cell group (in the case of the Wolf V2), which is why many people are seeing reduced capacity because the cells are so out of balance.

 

[Stealth_Chopper]

That's a great design that will ensure higher pack capacity over a longer period of time because the cells will almost always be balanced after a charge cycle.

Unfortunately the Luna packs use a BMS that appears to only balance at a higher voltage, and the balance current is likely a bit too low for a 4P cell group (in the case of the Wolf V2), which is why many people are seeing reduced capacity because the cells are so out of balance.

Oh my memory fails BUT: LEMME SEE~ I won't look but - Tell us again because perhaps it was on another forum, YES, how you never broke in your WOLF properly by running it and discharging it 5 to 6 times fully in a row first as instructed and then you neglected your WOLF for; what was it, I forget, nine months and then another six months <?> in an unheated winter garage. NOW Sing like a canary about how you selected the "30Q" High discharge cells with a 50A BMS setup for a downhill racer and then treated the pack like it was Granny's Pennies in her savings bank never spending the 'juice'. Yea, Yea, Yea, that's an inverse manner because my I love my WOLF with MJ1's and it still works perfectly.
Are you ignoring test results of 30Q cells to this day ? from 2019

At 15A discharge the manufacturer guarantees 60% of the initial capacity at 250th cycle so nobody promised some great cycle life at max discharge rate.

the max claimed peak power for this cell is like 20A or 25A something(sorry cant remember exactly)
so 60% initial capacity at 250 cyles at only 15 A., which i thought they could do comfortably...
not impressed.
so really this is not really a high capacity/high discharge cell at all if you want a decent lifespan.

 

[Bullfrog]

For a high amperage battery, I like the cells below:

Samsung 30Q cells are 15A continuous and 3,000mAh.

Samsung 25R cells are 20A continuous and 2,500mAh capacity.

LG HG2 cells are 20A continuous and 3,000mAh...they would be my choice for the best 18650 high amperage pack.

EM3ev is supposed to be moving to the 21700 cells at some point and that should give us more amperage and more capacity.

 

[bww129]

Tell us again because perhaps it was on another forum, YES, how you never broke in your WOLF properly by running it and discharging it 5 to 6 times fully in a row first as instructed and then you neglected your WOLF for; what was it, I forget, nine months and then another six months <?> in an unheated winter garage. NOW Sing like a canary about how you selected the "30Q" High discharge cells with a 50A BMS setup for a downhill racer and then treated the pack like it was Granny's Pennies in her savings bank never spending the 'juice'. Yea, Yea, Yea, that's an inverse manner because my I love my WOLF with MJ1's and it still works perfectly.
Are you ignoring test results of 30Q cells to this day ? from 2019

the max claimed peak power for this cell is like 20A or 25A something(sorry cant remember exactly)
so 60% initial capacity at 250 cyles at only 15 A., which i thought they could do comfortably...
not impressed.
so really this is not really a high capacity/high discharge cell at all if you want a decent lifespan.

Did you ride with me every time I used the Wolf pack? Were you in my house every time I charged the pack? The battery, and typically my bike which is a daily rider and not a downhill racer BTW (since you apparently know all about me), was stored in my basement.

I got the 30Q pack because Luna advertised it as high performance and suggested to select these cells if consistently using that much power, which I certainly did on occasion. Never said I babied it. The 30Q packs were also the only ones they happened to have in stock at the time.

Luna supposedly cycled every pack once at their facility. A couple more cycles should be all that's needed for "break-in". Regardless, this break-in procedure isn't mentioned anywhere in their documentation.

I truly am glad your Wolf V2 pack with MJ1's is still working well. That doesn't change the fact that the BMS does a poor job of keeping the cells balanced.