Even Newer 4 to 24-cell Battery Management System (BMS)

As great as they look, there are still a few unresolved issues in the circuit design that Gary and I are working on. I hate to claim success until the entire package has been completely tested. The last thing we want to do is roll out something that doesn't work properly.

Translation: it will be a bit longer.

It should be worth the wait if everything works as advertised.
 
*taps foot impatiently*

After all I've seen and read, this will be my BMS of choice. Luckily I have a month or two before I really need it...

I'm wondering about the heat it's going to put out on an extended ride and just how much cooling this little darling is going to need wit 2X6S packs on it.
 
CowtownPeddler said:
*taps foot impatiently*

After all I've seen and read, this will be my BMS of choice. Luckily I have a month or two before I really need it...

I'm wondering about the heat it's going to put out on an extended ride and just how much cooling this little darling is going to need wit 2X6S packs on it.

The BMS shouldn't produce any measurable heat when you are actually operating the bike..all of the balancing (i.e. heat being generated via resistors) occurs when you are charging.

Unless I'm completely wrong, which I have been before :lol:
 
jorhyne1 said:
CowtownPeddler said:
*taps foot impatiently*

After all I've seen and read, this will be my BMS of choice. Luckily I have a month or two before I really need it...

I'm wondering about the heat it's going to put out on an extended ride and just how much cooling this little darling is going to need wit 2X6S packs on it.

The BMS shouldn't produce any measurable heat when you are actually operating the bike..all of the balancing (i.e. heat being generated via resistors) occurs when you are charging.

Unless I'm completely wrong, which I have been before :lol:


jorhyne1 you are right all the heat is produced during charging/balancing.

the only way heat is produced during the ride is if it uses an active lvc where all the load goes through the switching fet instead of triggering the brake inhibit.
 
"Prepare for the worst and hope for the best..." - Uhh, military stuff

"Luck is opportunity meeting prepoaration" - Oprah Winfrey

"Always be prepared" - Lord Baden Powell

So I should expect heat to be generated, first from the BMS and then my body peddling madly... IF...
 
I should say I do have absolute faith in this BMS. I just wanna know how to avoid silly mistakes...

Sooo many times I have said "I wish I had anticipated this..."
 
Hi Andy,
AndyH said:
I've recently completed a 25S LiPo unit (5 channels on each shunt board) - Gary has done an amazing job laying out the boards. First time thru with no itemized parts list took just over an hour to build a 5S shunt board. The Molex Micro-fit connectors on the shunt boards make it very easy to connect to the cells.

Best guesses? Cost for ready-built units should be close to the price of the V2.6 BMSs. Physical board size has changed a bit - Gary's covered that earlier. If the control section is powered from the pack, the smallest unit will be 5S. When? About two weeks after Gary and Richard finalize the torture testing the boards are going thru. :wink: (our mileage may vary, void where prohibited...)

Andy
Would you please clarify that?

Do you mean that the cost for ready-built units should be close to the price of the V2.6 boards and components or close to the price of a ready-built V2.6?

Buying a ready built V4 for close to the same price as the V2.6 parts would be great!
 
I've fallen behind on this thread, but maybe someone would be kind enough to answer a question about suitable chargers. I seem to recall that the BMS takes care of the charging profile, so we don't necessarily need a special charger. I think some people were using Meanwell regulated switching power supplies?

My pack is going to be 26 60AH LiFePO4 cells. At 3.60V I'll need a charger that can supply 93.6V + a little bit. I could get two 48V/7.3A Meanwell PSU, or for a bit more money four 24V/14.6A ones. Do these sound like reasonable options, or am I completely off base? Are there other 96V chargers/power supplies out there that are better value for money?

ETA: Or maybe people were using Meanwell battery chargers? Would a PSU work or not?
 
Yes, the MeanWells will work just fine, except that most of these seem to have their current limits set to 120-130% of the their max current ratings. The reason is that these supplies are typically used in applications, like audio systems, where the there might be high short peaks, but overall the average current used is under the limit. When used as a battery charger, however, it will need to run continuously, and not overheat. With the common S-350 models, we've been doing slight mods (tacking on an extra resistor...) to lower the max current back down to the 100% level. There's a whole thread on this here.

Several people have been using the newer SP-320 models without doing the current limit mods, and I haven't heard of one blowing, so maybe this is not required for these.

The control circuit in the new BMS takes care of the charge profile, as you surmised. It does nothing during the CC phase, but it monitors each channel, and won't let any of them get over the HVC/set point. It does this via a PWM-controlled circuit that reduces the current slightly, to keep the voltage for that cell from going over the limit. Just doing this alone, without even considering any balancing, is a level of protection that will help increase the longevity of the cells.

Anyway, it is like having separate CV modes for each channel.

-- Gary
 
UPDATE...

Well, I think I'm finally happy enough with the performance of the latest test unit that I am planning on doing the first run this coming week. :) There was an issue that was complicating the testing, which made it very difficult to make sure everything is operating properly, before hooking up the cells/packs. As it turns out, it doesn't really affect anything, with the cells connected, but without the cells, the shunts wouldn't come on. I could test each shunt individually, and they all worked fine, but even if I just tried to double the voltage and test two cells, the shunts stayed off. This is do to some sort of oscillation that was occurring, without the cells connected to slow things down. This made it pretty hard to test the control circuit operation,especially the current measuring section. The fix is to put a small cap (.1uF...) across pins 2 and 3 of the LM431s.

The only other issue we still need to address is power for the fans, for the "boxed" variants. The 30mm fans that fit in the box are 5V, so to run them off the full pack voltage requires a pretty hefty power resistor, or resistors, which can get hotter than the shunts. We can't run them off the existing linear 12V regulator on the control board, because it can't supply enough current. This only applies to the boxed variants, not to the "stacked" versions, which can use the larger 12V 40mm fans. What we are looking at for a solution is to replace the low-power linear 12V regulator, with a switched version, capable of driving the fans as well as the control circuits. This will come in the next "minor" revision. In the meantime, I will go ahead and release the stacked version this coming week.

Another variant I'm working on, which will be more applicable for LiPo-based variants, is separating the BMS elements into separate units. There will be updated LVC/HVC boards that can be embedded in the packs, a separate "simplified" control circuit board, that can fit inside a 1" x 2" x 3" extruded aluminum box. Finally, the balancing shunt circuits are in a larger separate box, with four fans. Depending on the number of channels, different sized boxes are supported. The largest, which is 1.7" x 3" x 6", will hold up to 36 channels. Anyway, the reason for the "separates" is that with LiPos especially, you don't always need to balance the packs/cells, so it may not be desirable to have a full BMS, with the shunt circuits, mounted permanently on the bike. Many times, I just want to do a quick charge, without the balancing, but I do still want the protection of the HVC and "throttling", so that I can make sure no cell goes over 4.15V. Up till now what I've done is just use the whole BMS as an external charge control, and occasionally use the balancing as well. I was never that satisfied with this solution, especially when balancing is not required, which is most of the time, so i took a single control board, and stuck it in a 1" x 3" x 4.7" box, and replaced the LVC-only boards in my packs, with combined LVC/HVC boards. The two-wire opto output simply plugs into the control board, which is basically in series, between the pack and the supply/charger. This has been a better solution, but I knew the control board has a lot of logic that is simply not needed for a standalone charge controller, as opposed to a full-function BMS controller. What I've done now is do a "simplified" version of the control logic, on a much smaller board which now fits in the small box.

Finally, one additional variant of the above "separates" approach, is to use the nifty CellLog units in place of the LVC/HVC boards. These can't drive the charge control logic directly, as the alarm outputs are not isolated, it is fairly easy to use the alarm output to drive an opto output, just like the cell circuits. I got three CellLog units, with my last LiPo order form HC, to play with, and have a working opto proto board.

Anyway, progress... :wink:

-- Gary
 
how about a celphone-charger style smps for the 5v fan power? they're usually very wide-range input voltage, and so could run off the charger output voltage.

i'm sure there are good appnotes on some of the chipmakers' sites like maxim and linear that show you exactly how to make the circuit, probably even with pcb layouts and boms.
 
Hi Gary,

I want to buy a 32 S BMS for the RG project. One with fairly high balance currents if possible. Let me know as soon as you can - we're building some serious cell packs at the moment :)

Cheers,
CHRIS
 
Hey Gary,

I see this thread is becoming long..108pages+... The new BMS version with possible celllog match would be very nice!

Just few words to say to you we appreciate that time you spend to develop that great BMS!

Keep you great work! :mrgreen:

Doc
 
amberwolf said:
how about a celphone-charger style smps for the 5v fan power? they're usually very wide-range input voltage, and so could run off the charger output voltage.

i'm sure there are good appnotes on some of the chipmakers' sites like maxim and linear that show you exactly how to make the circuit, probably even with pcb layouts and boms.

I'm looking at something like that. Actually, since we don't need isolated output, there's a way to do it just using an inductor instead of a transformer. Transformers are expensive.
 
what is a celphone-charger style smps?

fechter said:
amberwolf said:
how about a celphone-charger style smps for the 5v fan power? they're usually very wide-range input voltage, and so could run off the charger output voltage.

i'm sure there are good appnotes on some of the chipmakers' sites like maxim and linear that show you exactly how to make the circuit, probably even with pcb layouts and boms.

I'm looking at something like that. Actually, since we don't need isolated output, there's a way to do it just using an inductor instead of a transformer. Transformers are expensive.
 
GGoodrum said:
Yes, the MeanWells will work just fine, except that most of these seem to have their current limits set to 120-130% of the their max current ratings. The reason is that these supplies are typically used in applications, like audio systems, where the there might be high short peaks, but overall the average current used is under the limit. When used as a battery charger, however, it will need to run continuously, and not overheat. With the common S-350 models, we've been doing slight mods (tacking on an extra resistor...) to lower the max current back down to the 100% level. There's a whole thread on this here.
Thanks Gary. I'm slogging through the other threads now trying to understand it all. :) But just to confirm, in the 24V ones I mentioned 14.6A is the max rated, and I should be able to do that continuously if I limit the current so that it doesn't exceed this? A 14.6A charger would be preferable to me, and I just want to know what I can realistically expect in the way of performance.
 
DaveAK said:
Thanks Gary. I'm slogging through the other threads now trying to understand it all. :) But just to confirm, in the 24V ones I mentioned 14.6A is the max rated, and I should be able to do that continuously if I limit the current so that it doesn't exceed this? A 14.6A charger would be preferable to me, and I just want to know what I can realistically expect in the way of performance.

Yes, that's what I do. I have four of the S-350-24 24V/14.8A models that I use in series. I have 12s 18s and 24s setups, so I use either two, three or all four of the MWs in series, depending on which pack I'm charging. The good news is you only have to do the current mod on one of them, as it will limit the current for the rest as well.

-- Gary
 
GGoodrum said:
The good news is you only have to do the current mod on one of them, as it will limit the current for the rest as well.

-- Gary
Thanks again! This I would never have thought of! :D
 
OK, I just orderd four Mean Well SP-320-48 units for $25 a piece. Sounds like a bargain to me.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370337565662
 
This is actually pretty darn cool. I hadn't realized that a straight power supply could be used as a charger. This, combined with the fact that the BMS is so much more affordable than others, makes my project a lot more economically feasible than I had previously expected.

One question though, I'm going to be using a 16s array of 40ah batteries that have a max charge rating of 3C and 4.25V, what would probably be the largest current I would realistically want to charge them at using this BMS? Would I want more than the 7amps at 48v that I could get out of an SP-350-48? If I did want more, could I just hook a bunch of 350s in parallel at 48, or would I be better off hooking them up in series at 15amps and 24v, etc? Any advice would be appreciated.
 
Indubitably said:
This is actually pretty darn cool. I hadn't realized that a straight power supply could be used as a charger. This, combined with the fact that the BMS is so much more affordable than others, makes my project a lot more economically feasible than I had previously expected.

One question though, I'm going to be using a 16s array of 40ah batteries that have a max charge rating of 3C and 4.25V, what would probably be the largest current I would realistically want to charge them at using this BMS? Would I want more than the 7amps at 48v that I could get out of an SP-350-48? If I did want more, could I just hook a bunch of 350s in parallel at 48, or would I be better off hooking them up in series at 15amps and 24v, etc? Any advice would be appreciated.
I'm asking the same kind of thing over on this thread:

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=4125&start=195
 
sjoerdvdd said:
for the guy's who have a DC/DC or seperate 12V circuit, powering the 5V fan from this circuit using a resistor would work wouldn't it?

Yes, no problem. You could also use two 5v fans in series with no resistor.
 
Try as I might, I just can't seem to get my head around how to test the latest and greatest control board. It is easier, I think, to get the planets to align, or solve the Middle East's problems. :roll: :eek:

The problem is that there is a complex part of the logic that looks at the current passing through the main control FETs. The purpose for this part of the circuit is twofold, first it only enables the 12V regulator, and thus the rest of the control board logic, when a charger/supply is actually connected. This eliminates the previous "3rd wire" requirement. The second function this part of the logic performs is a check to see when the current has dropped to the point it is at the level of the shunts. When it is, the timer is started. The idea is that when the current is down to the shunt level, at least one cell is full. When the timer finishes, the charge current is cutoff. Setting the timer to a low value will basically not do any balancing, and only the low capacity cell will be full. Setting it for a longer time allows the rest of the cells to catch up, and also become full.

The problem is that the logic required to do all this is quite clever, but a bitch-and-a-half to test. My brain has been hurting bad, for at least the last couple weeks. :? :) The "catch 22" problem is that you can't test it properly without having the cells connected, and you don't want to connect the cells until the circuit is checked. There's also an issue that once the cells hit this point, and go through the shutoff sequence. you can't restart the process until the pack has been drained down a bit. If you decide after charging that you now want to go back and balance the cells, you have to drain the pack a bit first.

So, what I have decided to do, in order to save my brain, and to not delay this any further, is to back down on the requirements, just a tad, and simplify the design a bit. I cut out the tricky current measuring logic completely. There won't be a 3rd wire required, but there will now be a very simple "start" pushbutton, to get things going. You press it once, and off it goes. :)

Instead of waiting for the 1st cell to be "full" before starting the timer, now the timer will start as soon as the first cell hits the HVC/throttling point the very first time. It turns out there's not a huge difference between the two points. The timer will still function exactly the same, from that point forward, and when it times out, the charge current will be shutoff, and will stay off, until the new "start" button is pressed again.

I put together a test control board, with all the above changes, and will check it out this afternoon. I've already made the layout changes, so assuming nothing major rears its ugly head, I will submit the run of boards in the morning, and will get them back by the end of the week still.

-- Gary
 
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