For transparency - chalo

[rafalg]

I know one technical forum that has a lot of valuable information and a bunch of really knowledgeable users, but at the same time it can be very unpleasant, quite often toxic. There's a group of old-time know-it-all users that seem to take pleasure from starting fights, disrespecting others and just offending the person who dares to ask a basic question. The moderators seem to tolerate that (as there's some overlap between these groups), and don't seem to care that the only users left in the end will be these assholes.
But endless-sphere is far from that, i'd say it's quite opposite. People are respectful, even most ignorant questions are answered, and there are no ad-personam attacks here. At least i havent seen any such behavior. Even if someone (Chalo?) has some harsh and too direct opinions, they're addressing the idea, or some technical choice, but not the person. So i think we should be paying more attention to the intent here, and if it's about pointing out the shortcomings of the idea presented (and not the author) then some level of insensitivity should be tolerated. Some people are just blunt without being disrespectful.

(it can be also that i haven't seen the worst stuff because moderators are doing a good job)
BTW instead of a ban, maybe a cool-off period might help for the most hot-headed users? So that their posts appear after a hour or two, and they have a chance to rethink and edit the response in the meantime?

 

[marty]

Looks like history is repeating it's self. From 2015.

Discussions aren't the same quality without Chalo

Discussions aren't the same quality without Chalo

I miss the man's unique perspectives on things. It's natural for humans to get into pack mentality and cling to whatever fleeting trend of the day happens to be happening in ebikes. Chalo has spent a lifetime working with bicycles, has seen many fads and trends come and go, and freely...

endless-sphere.com

Liveforphysics is better at words then I am. I copy.

I miss the man's unique perspectives on things. It's natural for humans to get into pack mentality and cling to whatever fleeting trend of the day happens to be happening in ebikes. Chalo has spent a lifetime working with bicycles, has seen many fads and trends come and go, and freely contributes his very not-pack-mentality view points.

The value in discussion is not unquestioning mutual group acceptance of ideas, it's to have them challenged and to take the uncomfortable looks at our own series of assumptions. Like it or not, agree with him or not, he mastered this perspective challenging process and I personally miss the value it adds to your board, and I don't care that it occasionally ruffles feathers.

I move to un-suspend his account, and hope he is so kind as to return.

ATB,
-Luke

I am learning about car truck wheel balancing. Thinking of starting a thread with the title...... Tire balancing - beads vs weights

Would love to know what is in the mind of Clalo? Magic beads or wheel weights?

Please Please Please. Let Chalo back to share knowledge of wheel balancing and ......

 

[ChapinB]

<3 Mould. Since most car tires are ballpark 26-29" bike tires, a similar result may apply. A smaller 20" tire may benefit more with its higher rpm.

I do agree with Luke, but wheres the tipping point? Iv moved away from anything HR/Managment related job wise because Im no good at making that type of decision.

Looks like history is repeating it's self. From 2015.

Discussions aren't the same quality without Chalo

Discussions aren't the same quality without Chalo

I miss the man's unique perspectives on things. It's natural for humans to get into pack mentality and cling to whatever fleeting trend of the day happens to be happening in ebikes. Chalo has spent a lifetime working with bicycles, has seen many fads and trends come and go, and freely...

endless-sphere.com

Liveforphysics is better at words then I am. I copy.

I miss the man's unique perspectives on things. It's natural for humans to get into pack mentality and cling to whatever fleeting trend of the day happens to be happening in ebikes. Chalo has spent a lifetime working with bicycles, has seen many fads and trends come and go, and freely contributes his very not-pack-mentality view points.

The value in discussion is not unquestioning mutual group acceptance of ideas, it's to have them challenged and to take the uncomfortable looks at our own series of assumptions. Like it or not, agree with him or not, he mastered this perspective challenging process and I personally miss the value it adds to your board, and I don't care that it occasionally ruffles feathers.

I move to un-suspend his account, and hope he is so kind as to return.

ATB,
-Luke

I am learning about car truck wheel balancing. Thinking of starting a thread with the title...... Tire balancing - beads vs weights

Would love to know what is in the mind of Clalo? Magic beads or wheel weights?

Please Please Please. Let Chalo back to share knowledge of wheel balancing and ......

 

[neptronix]

I'm glad our ignore feature works better than i expect it to. But it's not perfect because one person can mess up the tone for a long time :/

It’s great that Neptronix has this out in the open. This is how forums work. Gather input, ask questions, propose ideas and solutions. This is pretty similar to a build thread. Probably the best way to come to a sound conclusion. But it’s going to take some time.

Takes a tribe. Glad you appreciate it.


e-hp: what means do we use to determine the spice level of a post?

On slashdot, the users make that rating. But... the comment section freaking sucks since the 2010's, negative people dominated it, basically old man yells at cloud vibe. Community moderation got weaponized a long time ago.
Reddit has this and it's okay but dissent ends up getting silenced by the intolerant.
I think the track record for leaving it up to democracy is kinda poor on the net, so much so that i'd prefer to not try it here.

AI is not good enough at figuring this out.

In our format.. follow up posts might be defensive. Since we don't have threaded replies, you can't help but see a thread go silly and shake your head because the person you ignored is probably who you expect.

The thing i'm most concerned about, thread disruption, doesn't go away due to our format unless we make certain posts second class citizens with the default setting to be to not view them.

If you are doing this on a per person basis, they basically disappear from the site.
If you are doing that on a per post basis, that's kinda where we're at already, i watch all chalo's posts and i'm tired of needing to do it.

BTW instead of a ban, maybe a cool-off period might help for the most hot-headed users? So that their posts appear after a hour or two, and they have a chance to rethink and edit the response in the meantime?

You did make me think about this. That is possible in our software. But the problem is that it increases the burden on moderators to put someone on parole like that, and have to approve their posts.
We would have to do this constantly on and off, because the problem is intermittent.

I don't think it's right that one individual should tie up a bunch of moderator time. We are lucky that people volunteer to do this work and they deserve a great work environment in exchange.

However we do things, i don't want to shift the burden of being Chalo tamer onto someone else.
This burden for Chalo's behavior is ideally his

 

[PaPaSteve]

Insanity : Doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results.

In post #77 of this thread Marty reminds us of a "time out" that happened in 2015.
Here we are 10 years later in 2025 with another of many "time outs".

The same thing over and over again . . .

 

[neptronix]

Okay, here's a hybrid way i just thought of.

What if:

1. We give a borderline person who won't listen the title 'too spicy' - this decision must be made by a moderator under the same scrutiny as a ban
2. Anyone pressing the 'chili pepper' emoji on a post is a vote that the post is spicy. Everyone including me gets 1 vote each.
3. There's an option in the user profile to select 'low-medium' or 'high' spicyness. Everyone will be asked to set it who hasn't set it before.
4. If something is too spicy, it displays exactly like the person is ignored
5. A person can un-become 'too spicy' if they change their behavior and the amount of spice votes they get also decreases over time.

This subjects 1 person to democracy ( unfortunately ) as an alternative to banning them.
What would be interesting is that we could use this to revive 'other toxic discussions' also. The entirety of OTD could be under the spice level mechanic. Except posts with too high a spice level don't have a way to show unless you change your spice level setting.

This can be abused. Some counterweighting algorithms could substantially reduce the abuse factor, but it will never be perfect.


What about the juice to squeeze ratio?

Even if this is the cheapest path, and looks maybe doable, it's still a decent amount of programming work to make happen. I can think of a total of 5 people ( out of ~76,000 ) who we would theoretically subject this to over the last 5 years instead of ban them.

I don't know if it'd be a bad or good idea to utilize this as a means of reviving OTD or greatly relaxing the politics rule, but it's a hard case to make to build a custom moderation system for 1 person at current.

I'd much rather invest in: [WIP] ES v2.4 feature list / planning

Open to hearing your thoughts on the juice:squeeze ratio of a custom moderation system.

 

[slaphappygamer]

Red Hot Chalo Peppers? I like it.

 

[E-HP]

Okay, here's a hybrid way i just thought of.

What if:

1. We give a borderline person who won't listen the title 'too spicy' - this decision must be made by a moderator under the same scrutiny
2. Anyone pressing the 'chili pepper' emoji on a post is a vote that the post is spicy. Everyone including me gets 1 vote each.
3. There's an option in the user profile to select 'low-medium' or 'high' spicyness. Everyone will be asked to set it who hasn't set it before.
4. If something is too spicy, it displays exactly like the person is ignored
5. A person can un-become 'too spicy' if they change their behavior and the amount of spice votes they get also decreases over time.

This subjects 1 person to democracy ( unfortunately ) as an alternative to banning them.
What would be interesting is that we could use this to revive 'other toxic discussions' also. The entirety of OTD could be under the spice level mechanic. Except posts with too high a spice level don't have a way to show unless you change your spice level setting.

This can be abused. Some counterweighting algorithms could substantially reduce the abuse factor, but it will never be perfect.


What about the juice to squeeze ratio?

Even if this is the cheapest path, and looks maybe doable, it's still a decent amount of programming work to make happen. I can think of a total of 5 people ( out of ~76,000 ) who we would theoretically subject this to over the last 5 years instead of ban them.

I don't know if it'd be a bad or good idea to utilize this as a means of reviving OTD or greatly relaxing the politics rule, but it's a hard case to make to build a custom moderation system for 1 person at current.

I'd much rather invest in: [WIP] ES v2.4 feature list / planning

Open to hearing your thoughts on the juice:squeeze ratio of a custom moderation system.

Conceptually, this follows a similar path as I had mentioned in my example, placing more control of what is seen and being able to change levels to be exposed to more information, albeit at the cost of higher spiciness. I can't tolerate spicy food every day, but there are times when I want it and am prepared to deal with wiping my forehead every two minutes.
I'd love to have as much information as possible to exist in ES, and a way to access it. I don't mind changing some settings to access it, as long as it's there.

 

[marty]

Okay, here's a hybrid way i just thought of.

What if:

1. We give a borderline person who won't listen the title 'too spicy' - this decision must be made by a moderator under the same scrutiny
2. Anyone pressing the 'chili pepper' emoji on a post is a vote that the post is spicy. Everyone including me gets 1 vote each.
3. There's an option in the user profile to select 'low-medium' or 'high' spicyness. Everyone will be asked to set it who hasn't set it before.
4. If something is too spicy, it displays exactly like the person is ignored
5. A person can un-become 'too spicy' if they change their behavior and the amount of spice votes they get also decreases over time.

This subjects 1 person to democracy ( unfortunately ) as an alternative to banning them.
What would be interesting is that we could use this to revive 'other toxic discussions' also. The entirety of OTD could be under the spice level mechanic. Except posts with too high a spice level don't have a way to show unless you change your spice level setting.

This can be abused. Some counterweighting algorithms could substantially reduce the abuse factor, but it will never be perfect.


What about the juice to squeeze ratio?

Even if this is the cheapest path, and looks maybe doable, it's still a decent amount of programming work to make happen. I can think of a total of 5 people ( out of ~76,000 ) who we would theoretically subject this to over the last 5 years instead of ban them.

I don't know if it'd be a bad or good idea to utilize this as a means of reviving OTD or greatly relaxing the politics rule, but it's a hard case to make to build a custom moderation system for 1 person at current.

I'd much rather invest in: [WIP] ES v2.4 feature list / planning

Open to hearing your thoughts on the juice:squeeze ratio of a custom moderation system.

Way too much to think about, you causing me to blow a fuse in my brain.

 

[marty]

Insanity : Doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results.

In post #77 of this thread Marty reminds us of a "time out" that happened in 2015.
Here we are 10 years later in 2025 with another of many "time outs".

The same thing over and over again . . .

How about the carrot and the stick? If Chalo is good? Make him a moderator. If Chalo is bad? Same as your children. Be kind. A week in your room might be a bit harsh. Hope Chalo has a lot of toys to play with

 

[amberwolf]

What would be interesting is that we could use this to revive 'other toxic discussions' also. The entirety of OTD could be under the spice level mechanic. Except posts with too high a spice level don't have a way to show unless you change your spice level setting.

I would not revive OTD. If people really have to talk about stuff that ends up there, there are plenty of other places on the intarwebz to do it.

Attitudes, behavior, and interpersonal interactions always spill over from sections like that into the rest of a forum. If two poeple get into an argument there, they will take that interaction into every other place they "walk into".

 

[PaPaSteve]

Much respect Neptronix for your efforts to be inclusive.
Maybe hold off a bit from doing too much effort, I see there is a New Electric Bicycle Forum that might need a resident
"Grand Poobah"

 

[The Toecutter]

I would not revive OTD. If people really have to talk about stuff that ends up there, there are plenty of other places on the intarwebz to do it.

In theory, that's true. My own personal experience, in practice I've been kicked out of every such place I participated in where I shared my political views, without being knowingly or intentionally derisive, insulting, belligerent, or mean to anyone. Just having certain viewpoints that contradict the mainstream narrative on certain topics, especially if you can back it up with scientific publications, is enough to get you banned. I was shunned from a community I was a part of for more than 15 years, and to this day I don't even know why.

 

[classicalgas]

Okay, here's a hybrid way i just thought of.

What if:

1. We give a borderline person who won't listen the title 'too spicy' - this decision must be made by a moderator under the same scrutiny as a ban
2. Anyone pressing the 'chili pepper' emoji on a post is a vote that the post is spicy. Everyone including me gets 1 vote each.
3. There's an option in the user profile to select 'low-medium' or 'high' spicyness. Everyone will be asked to set it who hasn't set it before.
4. If something is too spicy, it displays exactly like the person is ignored
5. A person can un-become 'too spicy' if they change their behavior and the amount of spice votes they get also decreases over time.

This subjects 1 person to democracy ( unfortunately ) as an alternative to banning them.
What would be interesting is that we could use this to revive 'other toxic discussions' also. The entirety of OTD could be under the spice level mechanic. Except posts with too high a spice level don't have a way to show unless you change your spice level setting.

This can be abused. Some counterweighting algorithms could substantially reduce the abuse factor, but it will never be perfect.


What about the juice to squeeze ratio?

Even if this is the cheapest path, and looks maybe doable, it's still a decent amount of programming work to make happen. I can think of a total of 5 people ( out of ~76,000 ) who we would theoretically subject this to over the last 5 years instead of ban them.

I don't know if it'd be a bad or good idea to utilize this as a means of reviving OTD or greatly relaxing the politics rule, but it's a hard case to make to build a custom moderation system for 1 person at current.

I'd much rather invest in: [WIP] ES v2.4 feature list / planning

Open to hearing your thoughts on the juice:squeeze ratio of a custom moderation system.

I skimmed the whole thread. As one who finds Chalo obnoxious (usually ) and wrong on a regular basis (about his pet peeves ) I don't miss him much, even though I've learned a few things from his posts.

Were I a mod, I'd have kicked him long ago, just for taking up too much of my time ( cleaning up after him as you have been )

I think the "spicy" tag would be worth a try.

 

[E-HP]

In theory, that's true. My own personal experience, in practice I've been kicked out of every such place I participated in where I shared my political views, without being knowingly or intentionally derisive, insulting, belligerent, or mean to anyone. Just having certain viewpoints that contradict the mainstream narrative on certain topics, especially if you can back it up with scientific publications, is enough to get you banned. I was shunned from a community I was a part of for more than 15 years, and to this day I don't even know why.

Sad. Today there isn't room for more than one political viewpoint in a conversation, or any topic for that matter.

I looked at my high school yearbook this weekend. I'd never looked at it, or any of the stuff people wrote in it before. It was a fun read. I forgot how many kids I knew and was friends with, that ran in different circles than I. We all got along in the classroom though, regardless of who your personal circle of friends were, laughing and joking. I had a lot of friends in college as well, and similarly diverse. Great classmates, great roommates, mainly all good memories.

Today there are no cases where casual conversation doesn't at some point lead to politics. With some folks, it's right up front, because that's what they've become all about. Like they need to wear it like a badge for everyone to see. I actually enjoy talking to strangers more that acquaintances nowadays; people in the checkout line, or people I see while out riding including a fair number of homeless folks, etc., since the conversations tend to be shorter and stay casual, but more importantly, apolitical, and even if it turns south, it's for a limited time. Look at your watch, "Oh, shoot, I gotta go...", and you're out of there.

So, I lived through a lifetime where my circle was broad and diverse, and over time watched it grow smaller and smaller, because I don't like discussing politics. Of course in today's world, that pretty much brands you as a potential enemy (after all, why else wouldn't you want to talk politics). When you need to find someone that thinks exactly like you to stay away from that stuff, overtime your circle becomes very small (but hopefully still includes your spouse).

They're introducing political topics by grammar school now, and by the time high school rolls around, kids are either divided, or forced to "think" like others in order to have friends. Visit any college campus (I ride around/through a few with my ebike). Division is the name of the game, and they have parent age, or older, adults also protesting and picketing out front, providing their fine example to the young adults. And, since politics is strewn throughout people's social media accounts, if you want to look up old friends, you may think twice when you see their politics, not that another viewpoint is bad, but of how the conversation could go. I feel fortunate to have grown up in a simpler world. I hope all of those friends from my yearbook that are still going strong, are healthy and happy, and those who escaped are at peace.

 

[neptronix]

In theory, that's true. My own personal experience, in practice I've been kicked out of every such place I participated in where I shared my political views, without being knowingly or intentionally derisive, insulting, belligerent, or mean to anyone. Just having certain viewpoints that contradict the mainstream narrative on certain topics, especially if you can back it up with scientific publications, is enough to get you banned. I was shunned from a community I was a part of for more than 15 years, and to this day I don't even know why.

You and me are the same guy on that topic, i just voluntarily took a vow some years ago to shut up about it, lol.
( because of common problems you mentioned & people getting more intolerant over time - generally it is not a good use of mental energy these days to even get into it )

They're introducing political topics by grammar school now, and by the time high school rolls around, kids are either divided, or forced to "think" like others in order to have friends. Visit any college campus (I ride around/through a few with my ebike). Division is the name of the game, and they have parent age, or older, adults also protesting and picketing out front, providing their fine example to the young adults. And, since politics is strewn throughout people's social media accounts, if you want to look up old friends, you may think twice when you see their politics, not that another viewpoint is bad, but of how the conversation could go. I feel fortunate to have grown up in a simpler world. I hope all of those friends from my yearbook that are still going strong, are healthy and happy, and those who escaped are at peace.

That's pretty disturbing that they're indoctrinating people into the partisan warfare machine at such a young age now.
It's fractured online communities, real communities, states, families, businesses, governments, etc and no good has came out of this division.

And this problem spans the political spectrum too unfortunately, there are no 'good guys'... i know a guy who started a PAC and saw inside the sausage factory and never wanted anything to do with politics again.

I also feel fortunate growing up before the 2010's when our government basically swapped out martin luther king type thinking for... whatever the hell this is.

At least we have a sane reference point.

I think it would be stupid if we let our site get split ideologically instead of be the big tent it always was. So maybe yeah, we don't want OTD back :O

 

[marty]

Much respect Neptronix for your efforts to be inclusive.
Maybe hold off a bit from doing too much effort, I see there is a New Electric Bicycle Forum that might need a resident
"Grand Poobah"

PaPa Poobah,
Thanks for the motivation. Lets get started. Need some software. What would you like? This forum used to use

https://www.phpbb.com/

phpbb.com is free. That's good because I am working with a budget of $0

Comparison of Internet forum software

Comparison of Internet forum software - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[PaPaSteve]

PaPa Poobah,
Thanks for the motivation. Lets get started. Need some software. What would you like? This forum used to use

https://www.phpbb.com/

phpbb.com is free. That's good because I am working with a budget of $0

Comparison of Internet forum software

Comparison of Internet forum software - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Sorry . . . Not my jam.
Good luck with your venture.

 

[neptronix]

Update on this.

Guy who tussled with Chalo turns out to be unable to handle some less minor ribbing from other members, decided to delete all his posts because the website isn't as perfect as he thinks it should be and asked for his account to be deleted.

This influences my decision a lot.

This week is really busy for me but when i get a moment, i am going to see if i can have a peace talk with Chalo.
I still want to see a change in behavior but the reason he went over the edge is no longer valid.

 

[E-HP]

Update on this.

Guy who tussled with Chalo turns out to be unable to handle some less minor ribbing from other members, decided to delete all his posts because the website isn't as perfect as he thinks it should be and asked for his account to be deleted.

This influences my decision a lot.

This week is really busy for me but when i get a moment, i am going to see if i can have a peace talk with Chalo.
I still want to see a change in behavior but the reason he went over the edge is no longer valid.

My tip, from when I was still working: Don’t hit the post button right after typing your message. Wait a few minutes, or more, and re-read the post before posting. This saved me from sending quite a few emails written in the heat of the moment. I also do this on ES since the system makes it easy since the system automatically saves the draft. The delay period makes hitting the post button into a deliberate action, rather than a reaction.

 

[neptronix]

Plan on it.
Just for clarification, this doesn't make some behaviors not a problem, i'm just more motivated to see if we can come to a resolution.

 

[marty]

The "Bambi rule," also known as "Thumper's Rule," is a moral adage popularized by the character Thumper in Disney's 1942 animated film Bambi, which states: "If you can't say something nice, don't say nothing at all".
This rule encourages kindness and consideration in communication, especially when expressing opinions to others.

I thought it was my mother who said that? When I was growing up, I got into arguments and fights with the other children. My parents never got involved. They just told me and my brothers to solve our own problems. You could say we had no moderation.

 

[marty]

peace talk with Chalo

Few years ago I looked out my front window and was horrified to see two neighbors fighting in the street. As I think we all know. Nothing good happens when two 30 to 50 year old guys have hand to hand combat in the street. Few weeks after the fight, a third neighbor had the two 30 to 50 year old fighter guys over to his house for peace talks. They smoked some type of peace pipe and never fought again.

I am friends with all 3 guys and their family's.

Now - Sad to say that one of the fighter guys and peace pipe man are dead. Life is short.

Nep if you need something to put in your peace pipe? Let me know. It just became legal in NY State. Also if you ever in Texas and you need a wheel built. It's good to have friends.

 

[hillslayer@]

Update on this.

Guy who tussled with Chalo turns out to be unable to handle some less minor ribbing from other members, decided to delete all his posts because the website isn't as perfect as he thinks it should be and asked for his account to be deleted.

This influences my decision a lot.

This week is really busy for me but when i get a moment, i am going to see if i can have a peace talk with Chalo.
I still want to see a change in behavior but the reason he went over the edge is no longer valid.

Guessing it was the guy who rode technical singletrack on 20 inch tires, one of the few I ignored. Can't remember his name.

 

[riding_on]

Re: Awesome fork mod you can do or get from me soon
Gave him a ban last week for a long streak of rude behavior. A few days back the ban lifted and he started his abusive behavior on new members that ride bikes that he doesn't like.

I gave him a month of ban. Next time, it should be a year.

I realize that commenting at all implies that my opinion matters to anybody, but I love Chalo. Granted, I'm notoriously prickly and tend to forget hurtful words as fast as people can speak them to me, but he's a brilliant and competent technician. His absence leaves a palpable loss of expertise, IMHO.

It's important not to hurt people's feelings, but we aren't here because we miss kindergarten. That's all I'm going to say about it.