Grin's CA3 questions

[ichiban]

Guys,

I have some problems setting up CA3 with my new bike. This is the 1st time I test the whole bike :

My system :

+ CA3.14 + PR3 + GMAC 8T motor on rear wheel + Grin's thumb throttle + 26" MTB + 20S3P * Samsung21700-40T (72V nom/ 84V max) + JK JBD6A24S10P BMS (100A) + DIY 12-pulse PAS disk (to fit my bike) & Grin's cadence sensor. I bought most of Grin's parts to ensure compatibility


+ After adjusting PAS sensor close enough to magnetic disc. PAS sensor LED blinks 12 times exactly when I turn the crank 1 rev forward. Should be OK






+ Setting CA3 according to Grin's manual and everything looks fine when rear wheel is up on a bike stand. Throttle (Grin's 3-pin) works, PAS OK, PR3 blinks, CA3 also show throttle ramps up. Fast & responsive


+ e-brake L & R sensor (2-pin each) in parallel plugged into single CA3's 4-pin connector (use only 3-pin). Both levers function properly, confirmed by moving brake lever icon on CA3 display every time I squeezed either or both. Also tested before with DMM for continuity - passed consistently. Shown Right magnet & reed switch as brake sensor (normally open) at arrow point. Did this many times with other bikes, never had any problems.

+ CA3 power limit set at 45A 2800w. I know it's wayyy too much. Just my 1st test.

"Throttle IN" :

0% Throttle :



Half throttle :



Max Throttle :



Mode : "Pass-thru"

 

[ichiban]

+ "Throttle OUT" :

 

[ichiban]

Settings :

 

[ichiban]

Questions :

+ When I put the bike to test ride, PAS mode kicks in according to my peddling. As soon as I throttle, motor kicks in for half a second and disappears for good, then PAS never functions again no matter how fast I peddle. My setting for Until I power off and back on again, throttle can work for another half a second then quit & PAS also inactive. This repeats many times (>20+) with same result. I tried alter many parameter setups but nothing seems to work. No fault error display / no overlimit of any kind on CA3 what so ever. No heat, no smoke, nothings seems off.

I tried to check on Grin's webpage, their Youtube VDOs, cannot find anything exactly as my questions. So, I rather seek help here on ES.

How do I have the throttle work every time I want to ? As well as the PAS.

Kindly advise where I might overlook ?

Thank you and appreciate any help.

PS : Battery status as of now :

 

[lnanek]

Have you checked if the phase runner's LED is blinking an error code? Have you connected the phase runner to a computer and run the phase runner suite to check for and clear faults?

That said, having to power off and on again usually means you used too many amps and tripped over current protection on the BMS in my experience. Easy to set your max amps in the phase runner suite to 10A, though, and get things working first before trying to hunt down that control and fixing higher amps usage.

 

[E-HP]

What happens when using throttle with no load (wheel off the ground)? "+ Setting CA3 according to Grin's manual and everything looks fine when rear wheel is up on a bike stand. " Does this mean it functions normally under no load using throttle? "+ When I put the bike to test ride, PAS mode kicks in according to my peddling." Does the bike cutout using the highest PAS setting under heavy load, when not using throttle?

 

[ichiban]

Have you checked if the phase runner's LED is blinking an error code? Have you connected the phase runner to a computer and run the phase runner suite to check for and clear faults?

That said, having to power off and on again usually means you used too many amps and tripped over current protection on the BMS in my experience. Easy to set your max amps in the phase runner suite to 10A, though, and get things working first before trying to hunt down that control and fixing higher amps usage.

Thanks Inanek !

This is my 1st time using CA3 + PR3 from Grin. Still learning. I don't even know how to connect PR3 to a PC. What cable do I need for that and what software ?

On the BMS, I chose the very over-sized 100A continuous BMS (it can be used for motorcycles / or small cars) and this is the setting :



I have not played with this BMS much until now, just the basic needs first.

But I will definitely check PR3 & how to connect it to PC to check/correct fault. Thanks for the insight.

Will report back what I found.

Kind of suspect my DIY PAS disc with 12 magnets that I 3D printed with PC. It might be too small and magnets are too close that when peddling fast, the Grin detector might not be able to detect ? I actually made it for 24 magnets but inserted only 12 pcs in. The long collar is to extend left crank arm not to collide with the DIY batt pack. Here is the details :

 

[ichiban]

E-HP,

When the bike is on bike stand (no load), everything works fine all day long. I can manually crank the crank arm and PAS kicks in every time. Including throttle using is perfect, very responsive every time.

When actual test ride (on ground), PAS (set at 600 watts max, #2 = 80% = 480watts, #3 = 60% = 360watts) works fine for a long time (5-min ride). But as soon as I use the throttle the very 1st time after power ON, motor will push for a mere 1/2 second and quit working. After that, no more electric assisted, neither PAS nor throttle. CA3 does not show any error at all, I can still scroll thru screen after screen. If I need electric power again, I need to power OFF, then back ON. Throttle will now work for only 1 time and for 1/2 sec. PAS will work "before" the 1st throttling NOT "after".

I will have to find a way to connect PR3 to a pc and check from there. Do not even know that PR3 can do that, just think that only CA3 can.

I know that quite a number of members on ES are using CA + PR + Grin's motors. And a lot of them are wayyy ahead of me in this regards. So, this really is my school to learn a ton about e-biking.

Appreciate all you comments and helps.

 

[amberwolf]

IF the Phaserunner has not yet been setup for your specific motor, battery, etc., using the setup program, then it's not going to operate as expected. The PR is not a plug-and-play controller, and like the CA it requires specific setup for each system it's used on. Grin has the PR setup software for this purpose. I think they even have an Android version.

Without a load it might operate, but under load the limits and tuning of the PR will become very important to how it reacts to any situation. If they aren't all set correctly, behavior of the system is not likely to be as expected. The PR is an FOC controller, which requires tuning to the specific motor it is being used with to operate smoothly and optimally.


I recommend first setting up throttle in directly to the PR, so that the CA is completely eliminated from the tuning and setup of the PR. Then use the PR setup software to tune it for your motor, battery voltage, current limits, throttle input range, etc. Then once it operates as expected this way, under load while riding, *then* move the throttle to input ot the CA, and the CA's throttle output to the PR, and then tune the CA to provide the desired results now that the PR does what you need it to.

 

[E-HP]

But as soon as I use the throttle the very 1st time after power ON, motor will push for a mere 1/2 second and quit working. After that, no more electric assisted, neither PAS nor throttle. CA3 does not show any error at all, I can still scroll thru screen after screen. If I need electric power again, I need to power OFF, then back ON.

Although the symptoms seem to indicate the battery BMS tripping, the CA staying on wouldn't be consistent with that. However, since it does stay on, can you read the voltage when the system has stopped providing assist? I assume it will be in range, since you mentioned no errors (LVC would display a flashing V).
I don't think there's a simple was to operate the Phaserunner without the CA, unless you cobble together a special harness, but it would be good to isolate the problem in some way in order to send a throttle signal directly to the Phaserunner, which could tell you if it's the CA or PR.

 

[amberwolf]

The PR doesn't require the CA to operate--just a battery and a motor, and a variable-voltage control signal to feed to the throttle (easiest to do by using the actual throttle). You don't have to disconnect the entire CA from the PR, either--just the throttle output from the throttle disconnects from the CA and connects to the PR throttle input instead.

THe CA throttle output via it's multipin connector shouldn't affect the controller operation when doing this, but if it does, you can instead effectively disable the CA's throttle control by setting the input mode to BYPASS temporarily, so it directly feeds the throttle signal to the PR with no changes at all, and leave the throttle physically connected to the CA's throttle input.

Either way, until the PR is setup for your motor, etc., it's almost certainly not going to operate optimally or as expected. It has an autotune feature to get you close (good enough in some cases by itself), but you have to run the PR setup software to do this.

 

[ichiban]

Inanek / E-HP / amberwolf :

Fortunately that I posted these questions here. This opens a whole new world to me.

Thought it was just another PnP controller. Never read, never seen and never realize that Phase Runner requires such a fine tune process to work with all the fitted system. DUMB ME !!

This is my 1st time using CA3 + PR, so very little attention to related topics before. And I can do this biking builds only on my free time.

I will defintely go through the paths you guys commented above.

Thanks again, Guys !

 

[amberwolf]

I recommend reading up here

Phaserunner - Grin Products - Product Info

The Phaserunner was our first major controller partnership with ASI to bring their high performance field-oriented controller platform into a form factor and connector standard that worked well with ebike systems. It can support up to 72V nominal batteries and works well with systems running...

ebikes.ca

and here are the manuals and software

Phaserunner - Grin Products - Product Info

The Phaserunner was our first major controller partnership with ASI to bring their high performance field-oriented controller platform into a form factor and connector standard that worked well with ebike systems. It can support up to 72V nominal batteries and works well with systems running...

ebikes.ca

There are also videos if you prefer that ifnromation format, further down the page.

 

[ichiban]

I recommend reading up here

Phaserunner - Grin Products - Product Info

The Phaserunner was our first major controller partnership with ASI to bring their high performance field-oriented controller platform into a form factor and connector standard that worked well with ebike systems. It can support up to 72V nominal batteries and works well with systems running...

ebikes.ca

and here are the manuals and software

Phaserunner - Grin Products - Product Info

The Phaserunner was our first major controller partnership with ASI to bring their high performance field-oriented controller platform into a form factor and connector standard that worked well with ebike systems. It can support up to 72V nominal batteries and works well with systems running...

ebikes.ca

There are also videos if you prefer that ifnromation format, further down the page.

You are a night owl and a true lifesaver.

Thank you sir, as always !

 

[ichiban]

I managed to watch VDOs, read, and connect PR3 on my bike (powered ON with CA3 in "BYPASS" throttle mode) to PC via Grin's USB-TTL cable. Phase Runner Suite V1.8.0 (most updated) downloaded and connected. Also download GMAC 8T motor & PR3 L10 parameters from Grin's server. All parameters seems correct, then I proceed to Autotune. Here are the results :

Autotune :

Main page :

 

[ichiban]

Step 1 : Motor Winding Static Test PASS. There were 3 buzz sound = pass. Kv=10.06RPM/V, Pole Pairs=80, Rs=26 mOhm, Ls=57 uHenry reported from the test.

 

[ichiban]

Step 2 : Spinning Motor Test : Fail

*Phase Overcurrent Fault. The PLL and Current Regulator Bandwidth parameters may need to be increased, or the sensorless self start settings may need to be changed.





I haave tried this process repeatedly 4-5 times. No change, still same fault.

 

[ichiban]

So, I tried changing some values : info in "HELP"







These below 2 parameters have been changed alternatively with combination between the values.

Current Regulator Bandwidth from default 0 rads to 50, 100, 150, 200 >> same result + Fail with same fault code.

PLL Bandwidth from default 850 rads to 800, 750 and 700 rads >> same result + Fail with same fault code.

 

[ichiban]

My current battery status :



Discharge Current : 100A by default
Continuous Charge Current : 25A (for regen)

 

[ichiban]

So, I'm stuck here again.

Seek help from anyone who knows how to solve these. All comments welcome.

This is not an easy set-up at all, no examples of parameters setting on Grin's web. They should have had it.

PS : the bike on stand (no load) responses to throttle & PAS nicely. Have not tried test ride as of yet.

Thank you in advance for any help.

 

[Ratrider]

I am assembling a CA3 with Frankenrunner coupled to a BBSHD motor. The other guys are correct. All the parameters must be right otherwise it will not work corrrectly. I found the Phaserunner Suite software buggy and unable to connect for most of the time. I'm still in the process of trying to make it happen. Now with your Error Code 2.2 I fixed mine by changing under your Motor Limits-Max Phase Curret & Max Regen Phase Current set to 30A. I was then able to run a "Autotune" without any issues. But I still have other issues. It's a nightmare if you don't have a degree in Electronic Engineering.

 

[ichiban]

I am assembling a CA3 with Frankenrunner coupled to a BBSHD motor. The other guys are correct. All the parameters must be right otherwise it will not work corrrectly. I found the Phaserunner Suite software buggy and unable to connect for most of the time. I'm still in the process of trying to make it happen. Now with your Error Code 2.2 I fixed mine by changing under your Motor Limits-Max Phase Curret & Max Regen Phase Current set to 30A. I was then able to run a "Autotune" without any issues. But I still have other issues. It's a nightmare if you don't have a degree in Electronic Engineering.

Hi Ratrider,

I struggled to find a way to tune my Phase Runner 3 and Autotune the bike to run. Now it runs OK with more misc tunes here & there after I spend time with it.

Here are my parameters on Phaserunner Suite 1.8 :







I used Phase Runner V6 manual (later version than my PR3) with more tweaks. The standard V3 manual (exact my PR3 model) did not work on my system, at least it did not get me thru Autotune Step2 Spinning test. Try the attached PR V6 manual. Hope this help in your case.

My BBSHD with stock controller on 27.5" hardtail MTB, 14S5P MJ1 LG has been running over 26,xxx km now (in 5yrs) without any major problems at all. Re-greasing the motor (with Mobil28 grease) and other standard regular maintenances - it has been a good boy for me all along. Bafang might be less fancy compared to Grin's CA3 & PR but there is almost nothing to set-up and it has been a very reliable system.

Agree with you that Grin's CA & PR systems are not user friendly at all, especially when tuning and set-up. It really fits for those with tech background and prefer/have time & patience to do it. Not a PnP system and out-of-today-norm for sure. I also don't quite like the CA3 appearance, it looks more like 1980s than 2020s. You will not find this look from any other makers - pretty unique !!

I am new to CA & PR too, let's see what can it do for me performance-wise. I'll try to forget how it looks though.

 

[ichiban]

Hi Ratrider,

I struggled to find a way to tune my Phase Runner 3 and Autotune the bike to run. Now it runs OK with more misc tunes here & there after I spend time with it.

Here are my parameters on Phaserunner Suite 1.8 :



View attachment 332711 View attachment 332712 View attachment 332713



I used Phase Runner V6 manual (later version than my PR3) with more tweaks. The standard V3 manual (exact my PR3 model) did not work on my system, at least it did not get me thru Autotune Step2 Spinning test. Try the attached PR V6 manual. Hope this help in your case.

My BBSHD with stock controller on 27.5" hardtail MTB, 14S5P MJ1 LG has been running over 26,xxx km now (in 5yrs) without any major problems at all. Re-greasing the motor (with Mobil28 grease) and other standard regular maintenances - it has been a good boy for me all along. Bafang might be less fancy compared to Grin's CA3 & PR but there is almost nothing to set-up and it has been a very reliable system.

Agree with you that Grin's CA & PR systems are not user friendly at all, especially when tuning and set-up. It really fits for those with tech background and prefer/have time & patience to do it. Not a PnP system and out-of-today-norm for sure. I also don't quite like the CA3 appearance, it looks more like 1980s than 2020s. You will not find this look from any other makers - pretty unique !!

I am new to CA & PR too, let's see what can it do for me performance-wise. I'll try to forget how it looks though.

Another thing :

AFAIK, I will need a USB OTG adaptor to connect to Grin's USB-TTL cable for my android phone to work with Phase Runner Suite on the trip. That's one cumbersome way to do it, Why not bluetooth ? Others use it for years.

Is this it ?

 

[Blacklite]

You have a 12Ah battery and have a BMS set to 100A discharge. Are you trying to destroy your batteries? I very much doubt a battery of that capacity is capable of anywhere near 100A discharge.

The BMS is there to protect the battery, and the limits need to be set accordingly.

 

[ichiban]

You have a 12Ah battery and have a BMS set to 100A discharge. Are you trying to destroy your batteries? I very much doubt a battery of that capacity is capable of anywhere near 100A discharge.

The BMS is there to protect the battery, and the limits need to be set accordingly.

Blacklite,

Thanks for reminding me of that and I understand your concerns,

As I mentioned earlier that I still have not fine tuned my BMS/CA3/PR3 yet. Just to have the system up for testing. A whole lot more to do.

Understand that BMS protection limits should be set to a little over the batt Ah capacity and actual usage. In my case, 20S3P Samsung 21700-40T rated at 864w, 72V, 12Ah. So rated pack should be 12Ah and I plan to set BMS discharge limit to 60A or a little more.

But don't underestimate my cute 12-Ah pack yet. It is max @ 105A (135A with good heat dissipation), short burst of course. It has abundant head-room for that. Hear me out.

There are times when we need "real power" and second(s) to respond, like passing convoy of trailers, accidents, tight corners, etc. our bike must be able to respond without hesitation. In such cases, believe I can push it up to 70-80A (30 sec) without a problem, if the motor is that hungry (but I doubt it). With 70A * 72V = easily 5000+ watts burst for 30seconds on a bike and that sounds dependable to me. That is the main reason for me to choose these cells. They are high power cells designed for that purposes (actually more, like power tools, vaping, etc.). Use them within rated capacity 98% of the time, and the 2% reserve must be for non-negotiable situations, I designed and assembled this pack myself with custom-shape 0.2-mm copper pads & spot welded them together using Ni-Cu sandwich technique. Connections among serial connections (i.e. Ni & Cu) is one major thing we can improve pack capability. Believe it is a powerful pack that can last a long time.

The entire current limiting factors are the IR of the pack, all wires, connectors, motor IR, BMS and those on the current path. From V=IR, I guess I can push it that high if needed. No intention of running above 50-60A for long though , but might exceed the 12Ah rated from time to time. Actually, I made this pack to enjoy my riding not to preserve it. Life expectancy of this new pack should easily exceed 20k-30k km easily and that's very very long time. My previous batt pack is now over 700+ charge cycles with some noticeable degradation. With my usage of 30+kms /ride and shallow cycles usage, bet it can go over 1,200-1,300 cycles (still with 60-70% remaining capacity) without any problems. I will get bored before that and might look for something new. Have not seen new high energy density cells over 3.5Ah in 18650 format coming out yet for the past many years.