Grin’s perspective of Ebike fires

You would basically have to ban most current energy dense lithium cells in order to get better safety because you can only go so far to improve safety at the pack level :/

I think government hasn't done that because they know it will kill innovation in the sector. And batteries still need evolution.
 
Based on the troubleshooting threads we see aroudn here, and others around the internet, the problem is not whether the cells are energy dense or not. A fire that starts is already burning and it wont' matter if the cells had a few percent (or even a few dozen percent) more energy in them than others.


Cell chemistry (which might be different for the higher density cells; I don't know) might make some difference to which cells actually ignite on their own, but actual fire causes aren't always from cells themselves.


As I see it, the problems are:

Cheap packs that are built of literal garbage cells taken out of service for reasons, that should have been recycled for materials but instead were reused.

Construction that doesn't protect cells from shorting to each other or interconnects, and doesn't protect wiring from pinches, insulation failures, disconnects, etc.

Battery Management Systems that don't. Frequently no balancers, no status info, insuffiicnet protections / limits, etc. No protections against a failure of the FETs to turn off the input or output. No protections against tampering by the user bypassing them, etc.

No environmental protections, unsealed casings (if any casing at all!), etc.



Then there are users that "fix" cell problems in otherwise well-designed packs by bypassing the BMS, or they replace a non-broken BMS with one that ends up not having the protections that the original did, so now cells experience excursions outside their ability to handle, and damage occurs, leaving them vulnerable to starting a fire.


Regulation can't stop this part. Well, it could, but only by truly draconian measures. :( Speculation below:

To really eliminate all the above issues, they'd have to eliminate all manufacture and sale and use of generic BMS and generic battery packs (including DIY), worldwide. Requiring closed systems that require manufacturer-specific and model-specific BMS that communicate with the EV system, and eliminate the abilty of anyone to repair their own system, instead requiring any battery problem to discard the old one (making more hazardous waste that will never get properly recycled), and replace it with a new one from that specific manufacturer.

When they dont' make them anymore (which because of corporate "greed" will be soon, and often), for various models, the entire EV will have to be scrapped, as the regulations would have to eliminate all generic parts from the supply chain, worldwide, in order to prevent the ability to use any potentially unprotected battery.

(the regulations could insist on a standard so that all the battery packs could be interchangeable, electrically and communication-wise, so at least it wouldn't generate all the scrapped EVs the typical corporate methods would).

Regulations would have to be made making all DIY EVs and hacking illlegal with harsh penalties, or else the risk would remain of users bypassing protections or building their own unprotected packs, etc.

EV adoption would necessarily go down as costs for them skyrocket to probably many times what they cost now.


Etc.
 
Some great point being discussed!
In my opinion…cell fires will happen, even with the best cells and great pack assembly. But it always begins with just one cell and if you can keep that cell from setting off the others you have a much easier situation to deal with.

Assume a cell will ignite and build the pack to stop pack-level thermal runaway (thermal breaks, cell-level fusing, directing away of cell ejecta, etc). It costs more and increases pack size but that’s the way to stop these fires from being deadly events.
 
Some great point being discussed!
In my opinion…cell fires will happen, even with the best cells and great pack assembly. But it always begins with just one cell and if you can keep that cell from setting off the others you have a much easier situation to deal with.

Assume a cell will ignite and build the pack to stop pack-level thermal runaway (thermal breaks, cell-level fusing, directing away of cell ejecta, etc). It costs more and increases pack size but that’s the way to stop these fires from being deadly events.

I assume there are not many applications where a li-battery fire is worse than in your space suit whle doing a space walk.

This is how NASA thinks about cell pack design.

Sadly I can not duplicate this.



 
You would basically have to ban most current energy dense lithium cells in order to get better safety because you can only go so far to improve safety at the pack level :/

I think government hasn't done that because they know it will kill innovation in the sector. And batteries still need evolution.

Unlikely. You would have to ban candles first. How many poeple do burn down their house with candles because they do not use them in a safe way?
 
In my opinion…cell fires will happen, even with the best cells and great pack assembly. But it always begins with just one cell and if you can keep that cell from setting off the others you have a much easier situation to deal with.
Just a reminder of how little time there is once a battery goes rogue..
 
Just ran across this story. They say he had an illegal ebike battery repair business in his basement, he says it was a hobby.
Gee, I have a bunch ebikes, and battery building stuff. It is a hobby, but what would the media would say. Are we all now criminals?
 
Just ran across this story. They say he had an illegal ebike battery repair business in his basement, he says it was a hobby.
Gee, I have a bunch ebikes, and battery building stuff. It is a hobby, but what would the media would say. Are we all now criminals?
lmao, illegal.

That's just a way to escape insurance paying out any money.

Anyway, how the crap is repairing lithium-ion battery packs illegal? As long as you do it well, it's fine.

Even buying the proprietary tools for Bosch, Yamaha and Shimano stuff allows you to do this legally.

To answer your question, if anyone from Radio-Canada, TVA or CTV News Montreal asked me questions about this kind of even, I'd just say "The owner of this business had very unsafe practices and here is how they should improve it blabla bla".

His electrical setup was unfathomably bad, and he literally had barrels of naked cells/battery packs.
 
It's not. Running a business out of your home without registration is illegal in most states. (I'm not saying that's what he was doing.....)
Oh, I forgot about that part.

If that's the case, I'm fine with it.
However, considering the news angle, some people (like my dumb brain) would see doing battery stuff as being the illegal thing.
 
If my basement caught fire they might think it's an ebike production facility. Which it's not, but all these beautiful pedal bikes come to me for essentially nothing, and I put a motor in 'em.

As proof of his battery repair business they say the guy had 700 individual cells in the basement.
I'll have to do a count here. I know I have 60 on the coffee table, but that's in the living room.
 
Charging low branded cheap batteries unattended

Charging unknown and modified batteries

Bad construction or DIY builds that don't account for vibration inside a metallic shell for example escooter.
 
That's extremely impressive, never seen anything thus far work this well.
I thought the whole purpose of having battery packs quickly removable from the bike was so that you could charge them outside on the concrete? That's what I do. My small ones get charged in a steel toolbox sitting on a welding blanked on bricks.
 
I thought the whole purpose of having battery packs quickly removable from the bike was so that you could charge them outside on the concrete? That's what I do. My small ones get charged in a steel toolbox sitting on a welding blanked on bricks.
What do you do if there’s no convenient outside concrete+outlet+no one to steal the battery though? 🙂
Apartment owners might consider an extinguisher. Though IMO it has very limited usefulness.
 
I thought the whole purpose of having battery packs quickly removable from the bike was so that you could charge them outside on the concrete?
Around here the purpose would be more likely to be to keep them from being stolen with the bike when you go in to a shop. At least you stil have the most expensive part to start a new bike with. ;)
 
So you take your battery off the bike and carry it with you when you go into the store. You must have a dedicated backpack for it?
I will keep removing it to charge, I have house insurance of course but I'd rather have a battery stolen than lose the house and contents. I think I'll start carrying a key with me too, just in case of an event when riding. Though that's an outlier it doesn't cost anything to have one of the keys on hand.
 
So you take your battery off the bike and carry it with you when you go into the store. You must have a dedicated backpack for it?
I don't have a dedicated backpack for mine. My cargo ebike has a slide out battery. Depending on the location, store, and environment, I might take it off and carry it with me, put it in the shopping cart for example.
 
I don't have a dedicated backpack for mine. My cargo ebike has a slide out battery. Depending on the location, store, and environment, I might take it off and carry it with me, put it in the shopping cart for example.
Anyone take their ebike into the store? I've had no problems so far (supermarkets and Spectrum wireless) with my TSDZ2 mid drive.
 
Good video. Leaves me with some questions. Why automobile EV fires, when they presumably use high quality cells?
Interesting that a CO2 extinguisher works, because the CO2 is so cold that it cools the battery.

I note that Grin has all its non UL certified batteries on sale right now, might be an opportunity.
EV fires can still happen even when high-quality cells are used. The cell quality is only one part of the system. Most thermal events usually come from things like:

• Mechanical damage to the cell (crash, vibration, or internal defects)
• Overcharge or over-discharge conditions
• Thermal runaway propagation between cells
• BMS or pack-level protection failure

In automotive packs there is a huge amount of testing specifically aimed at preventing these situations — abuse testing, thermal propagation tests, vibration tests, etc. But the reality is that when you have hundreds or thousands of cells in a pack, the system complexity increases a lot compared to a small battery pack.

Regarding the CO₂ extinguisher — the cooling effect definitely helps in the early stage because lowering the cell temperature can delay or stop thermal runaway propagation. But once a cell is already in full runaway, the internal reaction keeps generating heat and gas, which is why large EV fires can be difficult to fully extinguish.

That’s also why most safety strategies focus on early detection and pack-level design to prevent propagation, rather than relying purely on external firefighting methods.
 
BTW, never featured in many media stories is the fact that, on a per car basis, EVs burst into flames less often than gasoline cars. So many different analyses confirm that.
Yes they do, but the main reasons are never mentioned in the stats, you have to do you're own dot connecting.
Arson as a result of increased crime due to unemployment and interest rates, and theft related arson, joyriders mostly now I suspect. This along with the fact EVs are stolen 20 times less frequently than conventional cars.
 
Due to the difficulty of extinguishing or controlling EV fires..(relative to ICE fires)…, EV fires invariably result in an ” insurance write off” . This together with higher repair costs for those EV that do survive a fire, result in higher insurance premiums for EV drivers.
 
result in higher insurance premiums for EV drivers.
Do you have any data to back this up, though? Insurance rates are predominantly steered by the vehicle value and rider profile, so it's very hard to quantify how much change there is for the same driver for the car costing exactly the same (and to add to that, EVs have more horsepower which is also a factor) just on the ICE vs EV change.

If anything, I've seen data that at least for the mandatory insurance here (i.e. not covering the vehicle value, just the damage it could do via driver's fault, or through a fire to the cars next to it) EVs actually end up cheaper than equivalent models with internal combustion (hybrids included). This might have something to do with the fact that ICE cars are much more likely to catch fire in the first place.
 
Do you have any data to back this up, though? Insurance rates are predominantly steered by the vehicle value and rider profile, so it's very hard to quantify how much change there is for the same driver for the car costing exactly the same (and to add to that, EVs have more horsepower which is also a factor) just on the ICE vs EV change.

If anything, I've seen data that at least for the mandatory insurance here (i.e. not covering the vehicle value, just the damage it could do via driver's fault, or through a fire to the cars next to it) EVs actually end up cheaper than equivalent models with internal combustion (hybrids included). This might have something to do with the fact that ICE cars are much more likely to catch fire in the first place.
No, it's just a misconception.

In similar vehicle classes and driver profiles, electric cars tend to have similar insurance rates.
 
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