Hubmotor with Integral Controller

Gordo

100 kW
Joined
May 23, 2010
Messages
1,218
Location
THE COLD WHITE NORTHWEST, EH?
Has anyone seen hubmotors with the integral controller available for sale? I saw them in the China Bike Show video, but can't find any listing for them?

EDIT;

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=24207&p=350813&hilit=china+bike+show#p350813

About 1/2 way through the video he is riding a 48V bike with two 1KW hubmotors, with internal controllers. This is what I am trying to find?
Thanks;
 
BionX.

Cameron
 
IIRC some Golden Motor Magic-pies have internal controllers.
 
And many, many, many are to found on peoples junk heaps where they belong... putting a controller in the hub where it is exposed to motor heating is just a plain BAD idea... theoretically a good idea, but in the real word it is just plain awful. Then there is that motor that has the batteries in the hub...
 
Gordo said:
Has anyone seen hubmotors with the integral controller available for sale? I saw them in the China Bike Show video, but can't find any listing for them?

EDIT;

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=24207&p=350813&hilit=china+bike+show#p350813

About 1/2 way through the video he is riding a 48V bike with two 1KW hubmotors, with internal controllers. This is what I am trying to find?
Thanks;
Gordo:

Having an integrated controller built-in to motor can reduce one less component, can be find in bionx, golden motor, a few other new motors, etc...

However, when it come to water, riding the bike in rain, or in extreme cold temperature. It may not able take the challenge. Here is an video that speak for itself.
[youtube]1wDT3t_Cy4o[/youtube]

The motor cover plate was purposely drill with holes, to ensure water go inside the motor and still able to run just under the water without any problem. If it is an integrated controller, it will most likely stop running. We were testing differ type waterproof chemical such as conformal coating, etc...But the simple solution is to have less component inside the motor and run with sensorless controller.

Ken
 
The motors I was looking for were indeed Magic Pie. Once again, thanks to collective wisdom, I find my "bright idea" is a bad idea.
Thanks ALL;
Gordo
 
texaspyro said:
And many, many, many are to found on peoples junk heaps where they belong... putting a controller in the hub where it is exposed to motor heating is just a plain BAD idea... theoretically a good idea, but in the real word it is just plain awful. Then there is that motor that has the batteries in the hub...



yeah, u know everything doncha?
http://epluselectricbike.com/


11 thousand miles & counting, how do u splain dat loosee?
know of at least half a dozen pushing 15 thou miles.
then theres the 1500 or so others that i haven't heard from.
i have zero doubt they would be extreemly vocal if their motors were melting down.
i also have zero doubt that uve actually sat ur arse on one.
i am calling u out that on this subject u have zero direct knowledge of WTF ur talking about.

pls stop propagating this disinformation.
 
Ehh... it's kinda simple. In a sealed hub, you only get to create as much energy as you have surface area x air motion over that surface to transfer the energy away. The more things that produce heat that you combine inside that package, the lower power you can sustain.

With something like a MOSFET (which is used in all our ebike controllers), as it gets warmer, the amount of heat it makes increases sharply (resistance goes up about 2.5x on the high side of it's temp range).

So, in principal, if you're looking for either performance AND reliability, putting the controller in the hub doesn't make much sense.
If you're just looking for reliability at low performance levels, then the magic pie and others have managed to "polish-a-turd" so to speak, by using good engineering to help compensate for the inherent weaknesses of the controller in the hub, and end up with a product that works great in practice.

For example, Methy and I each went riding last night on 150amp 100v controller/battery setups. After the first 5 minutes of hard riding, the motor was reeking like boilinng wire insulation. If you put your hand on the motor, it wanted to sizzle your flesh into it.
The motor (with high temp solder on the hall and phase wires) is capable of operating at temps like >180C without damage.
To think of sticking a controller in there with it would just be adding heat to something that all ready has plenty of it's own heat, not to mention the solder would melt apart on the controller.

However, if I was recommending an ebike build for someone like my grandma or something, I think a magic-pie (or something similar) could be the best option.

Good or bad really depends a lot on what you're looking for. If you want performance though, you're going to want to keep your heat-making things far apart.
 
exactly the point, what is the app.
a hi-strung finicky super powered racer isn't the always required or sometimes even best suited for the task at hand.
hub motors already have the huge hurdle of there being no easy path to shed heat.
adding another heat source with an internal controller doesn't help matters, i get that.
but there's a threshold power level below which the heat doesn't build up to a critical point.

ebike manufacturers unfortunately r restricted by law what they're allowed to sell.
Eplus is already pushing past that limit somewhat with a 1000W 30 mph version of their motor which they can legitimately justify to regulators they're catering to markets in those states (Calif being the largest) where that level of performance is legally permitted.
so given this narrow specification, with proper care in the design wrt thermal management a reliable plug & play system can be engineered that's targeted for the consumer market.
the suggestion that the bulk of integrated hub motors end up in a land fill is a blatant lie.

just because pushing limits dominates the conversation on here don't mean that speaks for everyone.
a clean, integrated 30 mph ebike that can keep up with road traffic with minimal exposed wiring would quite easily meet the day to day demands to satisfy the majority of potential ebike buyers not just the grannies, if the law were to allow even that much of an increase.


having said that, i'm gonna go out on a limb to make a prediction taking it one step further.
as we've seen with doctorbass & others they've taken the first baby steps by integrating relays under the hood because of the large number of wires involved to route out the axle.
in my view it's only natural that the relays will be supplanted by internal fets at first & then ultimately why not the whole controller,
even when it comes to hi-power setups.

as people begin to bump up against the limits of trying to push huge power down a long transmission line it will become obvious the controller demands to be in close proximity to it's load.
it's a balancing act, trading-off tolerating the excess heat in favour of reducing the nightmare of stray inductance.
i've worked on circuit boards that were 2.5 inches wide by six feet long good for 130 degrees or more designed to operate at the bottom of a rat hole.
so there's precedent that circuits can be made to function under those kind of conditions.
i expect designers to make the choice that we'll be seeing more integrated controllers rather than fewer.
 
Don't need to be all that high powered to melt down in my climate. All it takes is a battery big enough to make the ride too long. You can melt a motor with 1000 watts if the ride is long enough, and you really use 1000 watts continuous. At 500 watts and less, most motors can go the distance, though they might reach an equilibrium temperature that is pretty warm for a controller to be in.

It's one of the reasons, besides keeping the price down, that so many kits come with inadequate range 10 ah batteries. It insures that the motor won't melt, because the battery will discharge before that can happen. It's a way to make it work, but I'd hesitate to call it a good design. They get away with it because lots of riders don't go so far per trip, and most climates aren't as hot as mine. Keeping wattage down, as bionx does works also.
 
Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh said:
exactly the point, what is the app.
a hi-strung finicky super powered racer isn't the always required or sometimes even best suited for the task at hand.
hub motors already have the huge hurdle of there being no easy path to shed heat.
adding another heat source with an internal controller doesn't help matters, i get that.
but there's a threshold power level below which the heat doesn't build up to a critical point.

ebike manufacturers unfortunately r restricted by law what they're allowed to sell.
Eplus is already pushing past that limit somewhat with a 1000W 30 mph version of their motor which they can legitimately justify to regulators they're catering to markets in those states (Calif being the largest) where that level of performance is legally permitted.
so given this narrow specification, with proper care in the design wrt thermal management a reliable plug & play system can be engineered that's targeted for the consumer market.
the suggestion that the bulk of integrated hub motors end up in a land fill is a blatant lie.

just because pushing limits dominates the conversation on here don't mean that speaks for everyone.
a clean, integrated 30 mph ebike that can keep up with road traffic with minimal exposed wiring would quite easily meet the day to day demands to satisfy the majority of potential ebike buyers not just the grannies, if the law were to allow even that much of an increase.


having said that, i'm gonna go out on a limb to make a prediction taking it one step further.
as we've seen with doctorbass & others they've taken the first baby steps by integrating relays under the hood because of the large number of wires involved to route out the axle.
in my view it's only natural that the relays will be supplanted by internal fets at first & then ultimately why not the whole controller,
even when it comes to hi-power setups.

as people begin to bump up against the limits of trying to push huge power down a long transmission line it will become obvious the controller demands to be in close proximity to it's load.
it's a balancing act, trading-off tolerating the excess heat in favour of reducing the nightmare of stray inductance.
i've worked on circuit boards that were 2.5 inches wide by six feet long good for 130 degrees or more designed to operate at the bottom of a rat hole.
so there's precedent that circuits can be made to function under those kind of conditions.
i expect designers to make the choice that we'll be seeing more integrated controllers rather than fewer.

Once again, great wisdom.
The application is to carry my busted up feet, which do not articulate well, along at only 20kmph with my quite athletic wife who pedals for a hour or two, up and down hills. No race, to contest, just smelling the roses.
Thanks to all, even the misguided, who do not know WTF. They have a great value in bringing out the facts.

If I want to go like a raped ape, I ask to borrow Arlo's 100V lunacy. I could even drill a bunch of holes in my cover as he has done and although there will not be room for 4 internal fans, I could duct air through the holes from the outside as has been done.
 
Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh said:
i am calling u out that on this subject u have zero direct knowledge of WTF ur talking about.

pls stop propagating this disinformation.


Actually, I do have quite a bit of experience with them... I've repaired quite a few. All were apparently heat damaged. They stopped failing after being refitted with external controllers...

The controller-in-hub idea is a great IDEA. Nice, simple, compact package. Simple, efficient wiring. Unfortunately, putting electronics in the hub where it gets the full effect of motor heat and potential exposure to the elements can cause lots of problems in the real world. It's not to say that it can't be made to work, but it just is not a good way to go about it. I have over 40 years experience in electronics design with quite a bit of attention to reliability... I do know what I'm talking about.
 
texaspyro said:
Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh said:
i am calling u out that on this subject u have zero direct knowledge of WTF ur talking about.

pls stop propagating this disinformation.


Actually, I do have quite a bit of experience with them... I've repaired quite a few. All were apparently heat damaged. They stopped failing after being refitted with external controllers...

The controller-in-hub idea is a great IDEA. Nice, simple, compact package. Simple, efficient wiring. Unfortunately, putting electronics in the hub where it gets the full effect of motor heat and potential exposure to the elements can cause lots of problems in the real world. It's not to say that it can't be made to work, but it just is not a good way to go about it. I have over 40 years experience in electronics design with quite a bit of attention to reliability... I do know what I'm talking about.


40 years experience, hunh...
u & jack rickard both.
u also share his ability of imposing ur own bias to arrive at a wrong conclusion not supported by the facts jack.

like 'exposure to the elements', that's just backwards.
it don't get any more protected from the elements or secure from theft than inside the motor. :?
and whaddaya mean by 'quite a few', that's what(?), a dozen, maybe two.
implies less than a hundred anyways.
yet in ur own faulty logic that statistically insignificantly small number somehow carries more weight & negates the thousands that didn't fail.(???)

there has also been 'quite a few' blown external controllers as reported on here, so what does that prove??
that controllers can and do fail & u have no way of knowing if the internal ones fail at any higher rate.
but as a gimme, if there is a problem it's one of poor implementation particular to that manufacturer.
an internal design is not as straightforward as cutting off the PCB corners from an external controller & simply slapping it into a round hole, so it doesn't come as a surprise there would be some teething problems.
the ones u work on may need some refinement but wavecrest's integrated motors have been near bulletproof in the six years since they were introduced with the E+ even incrementally better.
amazing tho how u can paint with such broad strokes to indict all other makes as failure-prone based on ur narrow window of data points, another rickard penchant.


kinda reminds me of the nicad memory urban legend.
no matter what the failure mode, wags like urself will nod knowingly declaring 'dares dat mem-oh-ree problem agin.'
likewise with every single last bloody internal controller failure jump up & down, point & mutter regardless of the actual cause :roll:


The controller-in-hub is more than just an idea.
i'm sorry but the evidence is in.
the thousands of daily ongoing real world tests blows away a handful of opinions.
 
Ahhh, so I take it that you sell in-hub controller motors :wink:

I have no bias against them... I do have a bias against designs that have an avoidable failure more. The failure rate of an electronic device doubles with every 10 C increase in temperature. Mounting the controller in a sealed enclosure next to a large heat generating device is just not good practice.

And just where did nicads come into the discussion? I love nicads (but absolutely not for ebike use). I have designed and built remote solar powered data collection systems that have run non-stop for over 20 years on the same nicads. I've put nicads in space. I've also smashed them into the side of a mountain at over Mach 2 :twisted: . I kinda know a little about the care, feeding, and proper application of nicads...
 
texaspyro said:
Ahhh, so I take it that you sell in-hub controller motors :wink:

I have no bias against them... I do have a bias against designs that have an avoidable failure more. The failure rate of an electronic device doubles with every 10 C increase in temperature. Mounting the controller in a sealed enclosure next to a large heat generating device is just not good practice.

And just where did nicads come into the discussion? I love nicads (but absolutely not for ebike use). I have designed and built remote solar powered data collection systems that have run non-stop for over 20 years on the same nicads. I've put nicads in space. I've also smashed them into the side of a mountain at over Mach 2 :twisted: . I kinda know a little about the care, feeding, and proper application of nicads...




sorry, to date i have been strictly a buyer of ebikes & ebike related accessories.
and yes, as i've indicated in my previous post i do own & ride daily for half a decade now an ebike fitted with an internal controller.
still waiting for the boogey-man to claim my motor as finger-wagging know-it-alls just like u have been predicting it's certain demise since day one due to its internal controller overheating 'bad design'.
i tells ya, wish everything was this failure-prone so i wouldn't have to shell out twice all the time.



as for the NiCd analogy, it has nothing to do with the actual nicads.
it's about the similarity in how disinformation gets propagated.


the global warming crowd also invokes Arrhenius to support their pseudo-science but at least there it can be claimed to actually apply since the equation deals with chemical reactions whereas a controller is solid state for the most part.
it's the electrolytic caps that would be the main source of failure with the rubber seal prematurely aging from the increase in temp.

u say it's not good practice yet it's done all the time.
there's control & sensor circuitry residing in way hotter environments of ICE & jet engines.
a widdle euro-spec 250W ebike motor is nothing by comparison.

while there's a kernal of truth in what u say it's not completely truthful of the overall picture.
i take it u must be a republican.
 
Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh said:
i take it u must be a republican.

Nope, I'm a dyed in the wool global warming denying independent... nobody tells me how to vote or what to think... I can screw that up all by myself. :lol:
 
It was more easy to say that some (if not most) of ebikers likes to upgrade sometimes (if not all the times) and internal controller is not one option. I started with x and now am by 4x. It is not so easy to upgrade H internal controller. So grandma comment is very in place here. From other side, it can be perfectly equilibrated for specific use, not my story, no offense please.
 
The magic pie 4's controller is encapsulated and immune to water. I don't think exposure to the elements is a valid issue.
Also: it you run the motor hot enough to fry the controller, you're going to fry the motor as well. Its controller is independently replaceable although it might be prohibitively overpriced.

I'm going to go with a magic pie just to reduce the wiring clutter and to have one less bag. I don't want my commuter looking like a science project.
 
adamf663 said:
I'm going to go with a magic pie just to reduce the wiring clutter and to have one less bag. I don't want my commuter looking like a science project.

FYI:
My Magic Pie has never gotten much more than warm, but then I don't need a lot of power, travel huge distances or ride very fast. I do sometime cart a fair bit of groceries a couple of miles.
 
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