Hydrogen Drive - We Made the Battery Obsolete

Here's what owning a hydrogen car is like per mirai reddit:

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Can't help but cackle reading this
That's probably the biggest issue, right? Ignore the efficiency of producing hydrogen, ignore the cost of hydrogen. Where would you even get it? Gas cars make sense because there's massive infrastructure in place to provide gasoline across the planet. Electric cars make sense because there's massive infrastructure in place to provide electricity across the planet. There's no infrastructure for hydrogen.

What's more. I can make electricity and power my motorcycle. I can buy solar panels, or make my wind turbines, or pedal a generator or make a potato battery, and power my primary method of long-range transportation. Other people smarter than me can process and produce their own biodiesel to power their cars and engines. But it's much more complex and dangerous to produce and handle your own hydrogen.

Maybe the independence aspect of electric transportation is only appealing to me, but I think it's valid, and certainly not remotely possible with hydrogen-power systems anytime soon
 
Late to the party, me, but...

It looks plausible but, like others have said, a lack of efficiency numbers makes it hard to evaluate. Cost numbers with a developmental platform are less important as one-off protos are always orders of magnitude more expensive than scaleable mass production, so I'm not really bothered by the absence of those numbers. I won't buy into crypto, for or against because it's like the origin of cheques or paper money, new, uncertain and not understood fully by its fans or detractors.

What I will say is, based on the photos, is it looks like it replaces a fuel cell with an electromechanical generator - a kind of reciprocating engine powered generator. Simpler as fuel powered gennies go, but still, essentially, internal combustion. To my thinking this is a stored (or reictulated) gas fuel (the hydrogen) burned in a chamber (first conversion), creating heat, light and motion. (First inefficiency) The motion is converted to electricity (second inefficiency) and turns the electric motor.

From an economic perspective, this idea takes the generation of electricity from fuel (an economic "externality" with EVs) and plonks it on the vehicle. How the externality of generation works economically is that the economies of scale allow it to be less costly, if not more efficient.

From an engineering perspective, there's a 2 stage conversion of energy, through a lossy engine and a lossy generator, whereas a fuel cell is a single lossy energy conversion. So my question is, can you equal or better fuel cell conversion rates, at least by theoretical but proven precision engineering? I'm skeptical you can, at least as cost effectively.

The laws of thermodynamics frequently prove that a single conversion stage is more efficient. If you have some sort of harmonic resonance going in the conversion stage, then maybe you can beat a single stage electrochemical conversion, but jeez there'd be some mathematical and physical engineering complexity in that. (I'm and audio and radio electronics guy, the way I visualise this is a more stable broadband amplifier is less efficient but truer response and relatively stable, a tuned amplifier is more efficient but can only handle a restricted bandwidth and is easier to blow up.)

I have an open mind to left field approaches, but I, like most here, need to see hot numbers. Thermodynamically, 2 energy conversions is rarely more efficient than a single energy conversion, all else being equal and neither chemical conversion nor internal combustion conversion are hugely efficient energy conversions, so stripping an ICE conversion to an electromagnetic conversion? My guess is the fuel cell will always beat it.

Here endeth the grade 8 science lesson.
 
USA prices:
Gasoline: $3.50/gal - utilized at 25-35% efficiency
Hydrogen gallon equivalent: $6 to $12 - utilized at 40-60% efficiency, then subject to 10-20% loss when turned into motion
Electricity gallon equivalent: $1 to $2 - utilized at 80-95% efficiency

Literally electricity made from fossil fuels is cheaper to put in an all electric car because of how efficient an electric car is.

The gas engine sucks and so does the fuel cell, the hydrogen powered ICE is even worse.



Kudos for being honest!

Here's what owning a hydrogen car is like per mirai reddit:

View attachment 358921

Can't help but cackle reading this..
Because petroleum is so widespread a fuel in most living memory, many forget that it took 2 world wars and 50 years to build the petroleum infrastructure, with a lot of BAD and unethical choices along the way. We built our electrical infrastructure on the back of this and in tandem with it. So, we already have an electrical infrastructure globally, with some, but not huge, variance in quality in all but the more remote parts of the world.

Thus, when people talk about hydrogen as a literal fuel, regardless of internal combustion or fuel cell, hybrid or pure electric with fuel cells, I always return to the infrastructure argument. How you gunna make the hydrogen? Who's gunna build the plant and distribution network? Who's going to standardise the safety protocols? How long is all this going to take. The petroleum ere took 50 years for a global population of just under a billion and a smaller gap between rich and "developing." Bigger population, more infrastructure, more time.

Even the developing world has access to some electricity infrastructure. Even if they're relying on stolen or charity funded solar panels. Bicycles are relatively easy to turn into an EV. (They're even easier to just use as is and are 5x more energy efficient than walking the same distance, but physical energy savings, even on a bicycle, are important, too, where food is costly.)

EVs have rolled out almost by stealth. Everywhere you look, hydrogen cars are "starving." I've seen one news report where a Sydney security firm chose hydrogen cars at great cost, then 2 years later, relocated their premises to a property with on site parking and switched to EVs. Again at huge cost, but a cost that would pay dividends in 2 years. Their initial hydrogen choice they admitted was a fear of fuel source and range that was totally misplaced.

One story, true, but really, you can charge an e car off a power socket if you're patient enough (and kept the "funny extension cord in the boot.") That's not an option with hydrogen. So many people are learning this the hard way.

Diesel is the ethical transition option if range is a genuine issue, although it takes common rail engines to not be spewing tons of particulates across the city. The missus and I went diesel 14 years ago (her car, and I sold my last car, a diesel van, in 2016) because Australia had a commercial biodiesel program at the time. Only long haul trucks get easy access to bio these days. At least in Melbourne.
 
USA prices:
Gasoline: $3.50/gal - utilized at 25-35% efficiency
Hydrogen gallon equivalent: $6 to $12 - utilized at 40-60% efficiency, then subject to 10-20% loss when turned into motion
Electricity gallon equivalent: $1 to $2 - utilized at 80-95% efficiency

Literally electricity made from fossil fuels is cheaper to put in an all electric car because of how efficient an electric car is.
Im not sure i understand your numbers there ..”gallon equivalent” ?
But looking at it another way..
$33 for 1 kg of H2will give 24 kWh electrical and move the vehicle 100 miles. (250 Wh per mile) ….so $0.33/mile
100 miles in a gas ICE at 33 mpg , would need 3 gallons @ $3.50 = $10.50….. Which is $0.10/mile
100 miles in an EV using that same 24 kwh @ $0.30/kWh = $7.20…or $0.07/mile
BUT,.. if you are making it a financial comparason, you cannot ignor the additional purchace cost for the EV and the H2 vehicles !
….or the variable cost of electricity for charging the EV, which can easily be double at public charge stations !
 
Diesel is the ethical transition option if range is a genuine issue, although it takes common rail engines to not be spewing tons of particulates across the city.
We (Australia) missed a trick by not promoting the LPG/LNG option harder.
when the Taxi fleet switched to Hybrids, it effectively killed LPG pump stations just as the technology matured to be on par with petrol or diesel.
My ideal vehicle would be a “dual fuel” ( diesel/LNG), PHEV,….but somehow, i dont see that happening !
However , the Hybrid and PHEV look like being the most practical future options ( lower battery costs)
 
As far as availability goes, hydrogen from electrolysis is cheap and simple, easily within the scope of domestic wind and solar and quite likely significantly cheaper that battery storage. The main issue is acceptance, something goes wrong with a charge controller and a fuse or component blows up, something goes wrong with hydrogen/oxygen separation and the house or street blows up. Not an easy sell and, maybe more significantly, very easy to discredit (check some of the 'articles' on steam cars during their two brief periods of popularity for similar examples).

A brief note on crypto in that regard, it's a truly revolutionary tech and one of the easiest ways of finding groundbreaking projects is to check what's being most heavily trolled. That's not investment advice, quite the opposite in fact.

What do you do with that hydrogen though? Fuel cells are viable, expensive but so are catalytic converters and they both use the same expensive materials, just in very different ways. You could run it in a regular engine, a fairly crappy way of using it but a viable one should we suddenly find ourselves unable (or not commercially viably) to source fossil fuels. You could re-design the engine specifically for hydrogen. That one has a lot of potential but we're not likely to see it happen, it should have happened with hybrids but instead of turbines or even single speed optimized piston (which exist and are extensively developed) running generators we got regular infernal combustion engines and transmissions with electric drivetrains tacked on. Worst of both worlds, inefficiency for the sake of flexibility and a crapload of unnecessary extra weight. Why? So manufacturers didn't have to redesign, retool, their top priority was minimizing risk to their profits.

History rymes. The auto industry often goes through these phases, crappy outdated products but they're all playing the same game and are well practiced in crushing any upstarts or anyone stepping out of line and governments usually step in to protect from "unfair competition" from overseas. All it really ever achieves is delaying the inevitable, once the innovation genie is out of the bottle it's almost impossible to put back in.
 
I used gallon equivalent because it's the easiest to understand for most people.

BUT,.. if you are making it a financial comparason, you cannot ignor the additional purchace cost for the EV and the H2 vehicles !
….or the variable cost of electricity for charging the EV, which can easily be double at public charge stations !

I didn't mean to leave that out.

Right now in the USA you could get:
Compact gas car: $22k ( Toyota Corolla )
Hybrid car: $24k ( Toyota Corolla Hybrid )
Small electric car: $33k or $28k with incentives ( Nissan Leaf )
Small hydrogen car: $50k ( Toyota Mirai )

If we weren't battered with tarrifs in the USA lately, we could add:
Small Chinese electric car: $12k ( BYD Seagull )

I don't think it's fair to state that using a public charge station for an EV is an average scenario. Most EV owners today have a plug at home & they can fill up @ residential rates which are dramatically lower.

Public charge stations also have low economies of scale, low profits, theft issues, high startup costs, & low to no competition.
The cost of delivered energy at a public charge station will drop over time as those factors change.

There will probably never be a 'just make your energy at home for less ' option for hydrogen cars due to the danger and upfront expense.

Hydrogen vehicle owners are most likely to be dependent on centralized energy production just like gas/diesel car owners are.
 
As far as availability goes, hydrogen from electrolysis is cheap and simple, easily within the scope of domestic wind and solar and quite likely significantly cheaper that battery storage.
Especially when I see half of the time of my windsurfing holidays a hundred 15MW offshore wind turbines turned off , because there is no one who can use the energy or even store the energy they produce.
Who cares about efficiency when the energy is free and not used at all.
 
Electrolysis is cheap but lossy-- however management of, and applications for, hydrogen as energy are not cheap. Mostly they're not efficient either. If hydrogen manufactured by excess electrical generation capacity is to be used most effectively, it will be as industrial feedstock and not as fuel for people's stupid toys.
 
Right now in the USA you could get:
Compact gas car: $22k ( Toyota Corolla )
Hybrid car: $24k ( Toyota Corolla Hybrid )
Small electric car: $33k or $28k with incentives ( Nissan Leaf )
Small hydrogen car: $50k ( Toyota Mirai )
Using the above , the obvious “winner” on costs there would be the Corolla Hybrid which has been tested at 50-56 mpg.
Which means that it would use less than 2 gals per 100mls or less tha $0.07 per mile…
…but it only recoups the extra $2k purchace price over the ICE, after 60,000 miles !

FYI…in “EV Central” ,..California,… domestic electricity is listed at $0. 28/ kWh.. and increasing !
several other states have similar costs. Much of the Western world also .
anyone using RT solar as a EV charge source is also fooling themselves if they think its cheaper, as the LCOE analysts all rate RT solar as one of the most expensive sources.
 
RT solar? real time? rural t-something? Remote thermal? Google doesn't know it either.
At least Google knows LCOE (levelized cost of energy); I wouldn't have guessed it in a million years, but a thousand monkeys with typewriters would probably come up with it pretty quickly...
 
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Well, this thread was dug up from the past and doesn't seem relevant anymore, but at least i got to read it. What really caught my attention was this
"Our system is a pressure vessel. It can safely store 600lb of hydrogen and oxygen gas"
What a nice bomb. I hope the inventors are alive and well.
 
I don't think it's fair to state that using a public charge station for an EV is an average scenario. Most EV owners today have a plug at home & they can fill up @ residential rates which are dramatically lower.
And, here in Oz at least, purchase and installation of an optional higher current charger on a 30A main is a fraction of the new cost of the EV.

Of course, the middle class welfare of subsidising EV family sedans (and SUVs, too much car!) still overlooks the fact that the hardest up workers are delivery drivers in crappy old ICE powered vehicles as much as or more than 20 years old and these are the people doing more car kilometers than any other sector and are where the ev subsidies are needed.

Yeah, once a trade unionist, always a trade unionist, but I'm proud of that. 4 generations in my family. "Pa" (my grandfather. Foundryman), mum (typist, and dad, civil engineering technical officer), me (radio newsroom audio producer) and my eldest daughter. (International academic and about to be a published author.) "Bolshi trots" the lot of us. ❤️
 
Of course, the middle class welfare of subsidising EV family sedans (and SUVs, too much car!) still overlooks the fact that the hardest up workers are delivery drivers in crappy old ICE powered vehicles as much as or more than 20 years old and these are the people doing more car kilometers than any other sector and are where the ev subsidies are needed.
Most EV sales in Oz are now via Lease finance to Company ( Council?) fleets and business users who can reap the benefits of the FBT tax changes which make $60-70k EVs as cheap to buy as a $40k ICE
But that wont last long , as the treasury has realised it is costing them over $1.2 bn pa , four times more than they had estimated !
Those delivery drivers in 20 yr old ICEs are smart enough to know that a $2-5k ice makes much more financial sence than a $30+k EV…even if it does mean an extra $0.03 c/mile in fuel Cost.
No government can afford to subsidises EVs to an extent that would make them viable to those users.
 
Kudos for being honest!
In this case it doesn't require much humility because my point wasn't about hydrogen but batteries. Unless, as you predict, someone manages to commercialize a battery that uses mined metals sparingly, no heavy metals, PFAS, or other contaminants and can be recycled economically (lithium recycling is several times more expensive than just mining it), non-disposable energy storage techniques are categorically the only way for EVs to be ecological if adopted on a mass scale. In 5-10 years we'll likely be reading regular news stories about the environmental horrors brought about by the EV boom
 
Most EV sales in Oz are now via Lease finance to Company ( Council?) fleets and business users who can reap the benefits of the FBT tax changes which make $60-70k EVs as cheap to buy as a $40k ICE
But that wont last long , as the treasury has realised it is costing them over $1.2 bn pa , four times more than they had estimated !
Those delivery drivers in 20 yr old ICEs are smart enough to know that a $2-5k ice makes much more financial sence than a $30+k EV…even if it does mean an extra $0.03 c/mile in fuel Cost.
No government can afford to subsidises EVs to an extent that would make them viable to those users.
Fair analysis. I still stand by middle class welfare being a waste of money. (And I'm middle class, but of aspirational working class parents.) Also the European medium and heavy quad standards that's driven their microcar boom is a solution Australia could look at that would be brilliant for fast food delivery and falls in the secondhand ICE price range for a new EV purchase, for food delivery, at least. There's a Dutch one, not quite to market yet, I think, with a solar roof, that can charge the battery in 2 hours while parked in an Amsterdam summer. That'd have to work in Australia, even in Hobart, never mind Sydney or Brisbane.
 
And with Helene approaching FL I was just thinking that if it were to have gone into Tampa and you had to evacuate a million or more people, it wouldn't be great to be in an EV or H2 vehicle. If you are lucky you might get out of town a ways, but then what? Might as well be walking. Or unload your e-bike from the trunk of the dead vehicle and carry on.
 
And with Helene approaching FL I was just thinking that if it were to have gone into Tampa and you had to evacuate a million or more people, it wouldn't be great to be in an EV or H2 vehicle.

Hurricanes can and do interfere with the availability of gasoline as well.
 
For sure, but more easily recovered and faster to dispense. But the example I mentioned was not that, however. Just saying that if some thousands of EVs are looking for a charge on crowded evacuation routes now, they'd be SOL. There is barely sufficient infrastructure to handle the normal EV traffic on highways.

Hurricanes can and do interfere with the availability of gasoline as well.
 
There's a Dutch one, not quite to market yet, I think, with a solar roof, that can charge the battery in 2 hours while parked in an Amsterdam summer.
I dont know how you could get more than 1-2 kW of pv on a car ?
even with max output at mid day, that would only recharge 2-4 kWh over 2 hrs !
…enough to travel a few kms i guess, but no good for a frequent fast food delivery service.
 
Maybe that panel is only meant to charge the AA size batteries that run the glove box light. 2 hours would be about right. ;)


I dont know how you could get more than 1-2 kW of pv on a car ?
even with max output at mid day, that would only recharge 2-4 kWh over 2 hrs !
…enough to travel a few kms i guess, but no good for a frequent fast food delivery service.
 
I think there are two different classes of vehicle at play in the discussion: A Tesla-style regular EV sedan that at ~100 MPGe (33.7 kWh per gallon) uses over 300 Wh per mile, and a much more efficient lightweight car/cart. A 5 m^2 solar panel at 20% efficiency will give you ~1kW output, so the standard EV will only be able to travel a few miles for every hour of sunshine. You need something a bit closer on the spectrum to an ebike; not all the way to 10 Wh/mile, but maybe 50 Wh/mile? That would get you 20 miles per hour of sunshine.
 
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