Introduction & Project Explanation

Joined
Feb 27, 2025
Messages
28
Location
Guadalupe, California
Hi folks, Joaquin Suave checking in!

First off, I'm an electric vehicle "greenhorn" ( thank goodness I like to read a lot)! However, I am thoroughly immersed in bicycles (server apprenticeship at one of the famous UK custom bicycle builders in 1974) and spent a large part of my professional life manufacturing bicycle components.

About 16 years ago I got a "hair up my back side" to make a gas powered bike. I used a Honda 50cc 4 stroke and built a frame to take it and the "eccentric" drive line. Got it all together, tested it, and it worked GREAT... But I didn't like it! Too noisy! It has since been collecting dust in my toy room until yesterday when I pulled it out and thought... Why don't I make this an electric bike?

So there you have it!

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Welcome to the forum, nice looking bike!

You already have the ultimate setup, the left side drive... and apparently, some kind of reduction or jackshaft?
Looks like a RC motor would be a great swap-in..
 
Thank your for the welcome and compliments!

I designed the frame with adjustable horizontal dropouts for adjusting the chain tension for the "power source" (engine/ motor) and the eccentric bottom bracket/ assembly for adjusting the chain tension for the crankset afterwards.

The "jackshaft" or as I call it the "upper bottom bracket" was both a point in the driveline but also had a hydraulic actuated "reverse clutch" ( To free pedal then "bump start" the motor). That way I could make the Honda motor as thin as possible. From the clutch the next chain went to a planetary drive that I designed/ built to fit on the 50cc motor.

The mesh basket mounted to the underside of the rack was for fuel. The gasoline was filled into Camelbak hydration reservoirs that were plumbed to the motor with simple schrader tire valves/fittings.

Well that is the past and now on to the electric future!

First off I going to "re-suss" all my present gearing then make a simple chart of my performance parameters.

Top speed: (pedal/ motor) should be around 65 kph (40 mph).
Run time: A couple of hours?
Recharge time: 6 hours????
Voltage: 52
Watts: >2500
Weight: ????

I now have A LOT to read and am extremely grateful to those of you that have forged the path before me. I also welcome any of you who care to share their technical insite!

 
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about 16 years ago I got a "hair up my back side" to make a gas powered bike. I used a Honda 50cc 4 stroke and built a frame to take it and the "eccentric" drive line. Got it all together, tested it, and it worked GREAT... But I didn't like it! Too noisy!
That's why I went electric, when I got to the point I needed some sort of assist, back with DayGlo Avenger.


I designed the frame with adjustable horizontal dropouts for adjusting the chain tension for the "power source" (engine/ motor) and the eccentric bottom bracket/ assembly for adjusting the chain tension for the crankset afterwards.
Those are good ideas that aren't implemented in enough of the cases where this would help (instead of using separate chain tensioners, etc).


First off I going to "re-suss" all my present gearing then make a simple chart of my performance parameters.
Top speed: (pedal/ motor) should be around 65 kph (40 mph).
Run time: A couple of hours?
Recharge time: 6 hours????
Voltage: 52
Watts: >2500
Weight: ????
Since you have this info, and presumably info about the terrain and riding conditions you want it to do these in, you can plug it into the simulator at ebikes.ca to help figure out how much motor power you need for this, how much load that will put on the battery, and a guesstimate of the wh/km that lets you estimate minimum battery capacity. Use the "middrive" option, stick in your gearing ratios, and play with different motors, cotnrollers, etc.
 
I don't know that company (haven't looked at their motors).

But, in general, remember that most motors for aircraft (or small-scale RC cars, etc) have at least two things that make them less than ideal for ground transport use:

Theyre intended to be cooled by the airflow from the prop, which is usually quite a lot.

They're intended to spin up virtually instantly without much of a load on them to whatever speed they're commanded to by the controller.

So they tend to have very little thermal mass, and if they take too long to spin up to the commanded speed, the current flow is high and heats them rapidly. Depending on loading and riding conditions, gearing, etc., you might have to have a forced-cooling setup that has it's own fan motor in it (because a fan driven by the motor itself wouldn't be spinning enough during the conditions that cause the heating).
 
Thanks for the input. I like the "pancake" motors because of how thin they are. My idea was to design and make a planetary reduction gear set with a built-in cooling fan to push air through the motor and still be thin enough not splay the crank arms too wide. It may be wishful thinking though. If you (or anyone else) could point me to a more appropriate motor, I would appreciate it! I have a machine shop with 5 axis CNC milling and 3D printing capabilities so there isn't a whole lot that I can't make...I just don't like to throw good money & time after bad.
 
To point you to a motor, we'd need to know what kind of power level it must provide. I know you already said >2500w, but is that based on any calculations or simulations of the power required to do the job you want the system to do for you? If not, I'd still recommend the ebikes.ca simulator previously mentioned.

If the 2500W+ figure is already based on good data, then:

--Is that a peak power (and if so, what's the continuous requirement, and how long is the worst case peak?)
--Or is it a continuous?

--do you want something small that spins fast to make that power, requiring a large-ratio reduction?
--or do you want a slower-spinning motor that doens't require much or any of a reduction, but will have to be larger to get that power level?

FWIW, geared hubmotors are already a "pancake" motor with a planetary reduction. So...you could use one of those to drive the system. If you need the shaft to be the output and the case to be still, lookup Crossbreak's thread on converting a geared hubmotor to do that--I'm sure you can machine anything needed to do this. :)

There are some very small and light ones that can do a fair bit of power, though none that do the power you've listed.

Bigger ones generally still won't a continuous 2500w. You might get peaks of that kind of power from a MAC or GMAC, maybe, not sure of any others. Maybe an Ezee? But continuous...maybe 1kw from the GMAC / MAC.

If you do the crossbreak mod then the case is fixed in place and it's much easier to set it up for cooling, so you could get higher power out of it. Ther'es more details in the linked thread


Otherwise, you might need to go with the aircraft motor / reduction. If you do, if it's a typical multi-thousand-rpm type, then you'll probably need a dual-stage reduction (which loses more power than a single-stage), depending on the output RPM you want.

If' it's a low-kV motor, it takes less of a reduction to get the same output.
 
To quote myself:
First off, I'm an electric vehicle "greenhorn".

I plane old don't know! I looked at the power band of the 50cc Honda and felt that I Could "infuse" torque using my human power through the 8 speed hub along the speed range. It worked quite well... But I am quickly learning that this "electrical thing" is far more complicated!

Regarding the riding requirements, I am starting with a frame set with excellent geometry for going fast over rough ground think 40MPH is "do-able". The "mechanics/ architecture" of the frame will provide an open platform for the "best of the best" motor and primary drive... However I really have no clue as to what that is!!! I read and read and read and just get mired in the technology!

So to "dumb it down", let me share some of my design constraints::

In all industrial design there should be a balance! I don't believe in putting 1000HP motors in commuter cars nor some crazy overkill motor on my bike, though I do want "higher end" performance from the bike (think of the Carrera's used in the Dakar rally).
I am very concerned about the over all width of the motor because I believe that there is a certain width between crank arms where pedaling is not good for you and should voided at all costs.

Enough battery power to last a days ride.
Not "stupid" heavy.
"low-key" so it does not draw attention.
And most important...SUPER FUN to ride!

I'll look into the names you posted and continue reading, however everyone please keep pointing me in good directions!
 
I plane old don't know! I looked at the power band of the 50cc Honda and felt that I Could "infuse" torque using my human power through the 8 speed hub along the speed range. It worked quite well... But I am quickly learning that this "electrical thing" is far more complicated!
It 's just different. :)

Regarding the riding requirements, I am starting with a frame set with excellent geometry for going fast over rough ground think 40MPH is "do-able". The "mechanics/ architecture" of the frame will provide an open platform for the "best of the best" motor and primary drive... However I really have no clue as to what that is!!! I read and read and read and just get mired in the technology!

First decide if you want to do this on a bicycle frame with bicycle components, which probably arent' cheap for stuff that will survive those speeds and condtions for very long, or move up to dirtbike stuff that might be more appropriate for those kinds of speeds and conditions.

Next, find out how much power it really takes to do what you want with the stuff you're using. (it'll take more power with a heavier bike, but the heavier bike can more easily carry the stuff to power it).

Which motor would be "best of the best" depends on what you choose to do, and how you want to do it. And on whether you mean "best quality", "best efficiency", "best design", best for the specific purpose, etc. And...whose opinion you listen to. :lol: (or how much money and time you have to buy things and test each one to find out whihc actually is best for your definition of that).




In all industrial design there should be a balance! I don't believe in putting 1000HP motors in commuter cars nor some crazy overkill motor on my bike, though I do want "higher end" performance from the bike (think of the Carrera's used in the Dakar rally).
The power requirement is "easy" to figure out; follow the suggestion farther down this post (also previously posted in the thread) for a starting guesstimate.

There are various ways to get "higher end performance", each of which has it's advantages and disadvantages.


I am very concerned about the over all width of the motor because I believe that there is a certain width between crank arms where pedaling is not good for you and should voided at all costs.
That's the Q factor, and that width depends on your body. There are a lot of articles, pages, and whatnot on the internet about Qfactor and how it is relevant to you and your ride choice; not all of them cover all the details, so reading multiple ones may give you a better idea about it. Here's the first useful hit on a google search for my first sentence of this paragraph: Everything you want to know about the Q Factor that has some useful info. Sheldon Brown's website probably has good info too (almost anything you want to know about the mechanics of and/or repair of bicycles is probably on that website).

Good fit to keep from injuring yourself also depends on seat distance from the cranks vs your leg length and movement style, etc., and even distance from seat to handlebars, and bar height, etc. (that's why good frames usually come in multiple sizes; the cheap stuff that only comes in one size can't be fit to everyone, so anyone outside the range it was made for (if it was even made to fit *anyone* and not just made to have a certain look) will just have to live with what doesn't fit them.



Enough battery power to last a days ride.
To figure out if that's possible, and if so how much battery that will be:

How far is a days ride, worst case (longest distance)?
Under what specific riding conditions, on what terrain?
At what speed? Any winds?

You can use the simulator at ebikes.ca to use the above info to figure out how much power it takes to do that job, and then get a wh/mile guesstimate, then use that to figure out how many wh it takes to go as far as you need to go, which gives you an approximate minimum battery size.


"low-key" so it does not draw attention.
For that, it depends on where you ride, and what you're doing. If it's offroad in areas where it's allowed to ride, then it doesn't really matter, unless some vehicle or bike types are disallowed.

If it's onroad, then don't ride in a way that attracts attention and unless you just have picky leos you'll probably be left alone. I ride contraptions that most definitely attract attention (if people see me, they're less likely to accidentally run me over), but I ride safely and within the rules of the road, so nobody bothers me.

If you have a situation that requires a "stealth" bicycle ride, then you're probably going to need small everything so you can hide it behind other stuff (panniers, etc--stuff that you see on bicycles in your specific area...if your bike looks different than those in the area, then it'll attract attention from that reason alone.

But if you ride in a way that attracts attention, it doens't relaly matter what the bike looks like.... ;)
 
Yes, Q- factor is the correct term for the distance from the left crank petal mounting face to the right. However this measurement is of little value when trying to ascertain the useful "envelope" for the motor and reduction gears.
As the bike sits right now... The distance between the inside face's are 5.5"(140mm).
 
I can't wait to see this electric.
Have you decided on motor yet?

neumotor ( 32xx ) or Astro being pushed with a VESC could be a pretty good time.
 
Why does life get in the way a working on fun things???

Anyway I had a few hours spare time to look into the beginning of my planetary transmission. the gears are just rough .step files I downloaded from Rexnold to give me a idea of them pared with a LR Small Block. Of course they would be machined and encased into the primary drive.

ebike 41525.jpg
 
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