Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

[Cowardlyduck]

Dont confuse the common cracking seen on cast aluminium with structural issues.
I've both abused the hell out of hub motor side covers by drilling way too many holes and not had them fail, and also had completely untouched side covers fail randomly.

 

[vladrov]

Hi, thank you for your help.

I noticed that a nut on my freehub acts like a spacer:


It's not shown on the dimension diagram of the Leaf.


But it can be seen in that photo:


And on some wheels, the spacers are much wider:



Do you know why there are many variants and how can I know if and how much space I will need? What is the deciding factor - the derailleur travel, the minimal space so the chain doesn't rub against the frame or something else?

 

[Chalo]

Through axle hubs have wider spacing, but you can't use that kind of frame anyway. Only use as much spacing as necessary to keep the chain from rubbing the frame when in the small sprocket, or shifting in and out of the small sprocket. Otherwise you'll have to dish the wheel more than necessary, which makes it weaker.

Standard rear wheel disc side spacing is 15mm from dropout face to rotor mounting face.

 

[vladrov]

I think I'll purchase the cassette version with 14mm on both sides, despite the short axle. I am still in touch with Peter from Leaf's service email. He mentioned that if I really want, they can try to purchase a custom-made axle for me from their axle supplier, but it will be expensive and time-consuming. It's a little bit funny, but he is know recommending that I search for another motor supplier with a longer shaft. I think he really has had enough of me.

Are there really some alternatives to Leaf? I found that QS also has a 135 mm 1500W motor, but there isn't much information. I find interesting that the phase wires are wider - 6 mm².

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

Are there really some alternatives to Leaf? I found that QS also has a 135 mm 1500W motor, but there isn't much information. I find interesting that the phase wires are wider - 6 mm².

One thing I am wondering about....

If the axle flexing or bending problem is such an issue why did QS not use a thicker axle diameter like 16mm x 10mm axle (found on V3 versions of their other motors like the Q205, etc.) on this model with 7 speed freewheel (which has a longer length of unsupported axle compared to the other QS hub motors which are AFAIK all single speed freewheel)?

Surely QS must have known about it since the idea of this 7 speed feewheel motor didn't come along till some point in 2016:

QSMOTOR,0.5-12kW Electric Hub Motor & Mid Drive Motor Manufacture China

as Vito I do not answer. Send a Message by ali. have if I receive answer.

endless-sphere.com

Perhaps the issue isn't so much the axle flexing or bending but other issues such as side cover design, manufacturing defects and/or heat build-up causing cracks in the aluminum side cover -->#1 found cracks in rear hub motor side cover, #2 found cracks in rear hub motor side cover

P.S. Some threads involving DD motors where the side cover has broken:

Cracked side casing on Crystalyte 408motor - Strange Failure (The two people who reported side cover failures in this thread with Crystalyte 4xx motors said they rode in the smallest cog-- > Cracked side casing on Crystalyte 408motor - Strange Failure . However, the general consensus of the thread is that these two instances in Crystalyte 4xx motors were caused by poor manufacturing and poor quality control)

Hub motor face plate cracking (Amberwolf mentions the issue with riding in the small gear which I linked earlier in this thread -->Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor . However, two forum members mention this should not be a constant problem or a constant issue and the OP should switch to another brand of hub motor.)

Help, I think I destroyed my hub motor :( Is it salvagable? - Electricbike.com Ebike Forum (This one broke during disassembly, but the moderator does mention the following "strong pedaling on the smaller gears with those motors will eventually break the cover which has happened to me enough times that I just don't bother with these freewheel motors anymore. There's no outer bearing to support the extreme forces exerted on the smaller cogs.")

Motor cover split around freewheel while pedaling. (This one involved a cover that failed within weeks.)

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

According to ebikes.ca steel threads replacing aluminum threads is the fix for this problem of DD side covers breaking on the Crystalyte (see 4th link in previous post) 4xx DD hubmotors:

Warren's 350 MAC mid-drive (finally) recumbent

As I understand it, once it is moving the correct direction, a sensorless controller can sync from the motor's back-emf. Edit: removed landmine. ES remains independent!

endless-sphere.com

The aluminum side covers of the Crystalyte hub motors aren't engineered by NASA. Sometimes there are voids or weak spots in the castings and sometimes this can have consequences. We have seen a few instances where riders have managed to shear off the threaded shoulder that the freewheel screws onto. This usually happens when they are standing pedalling in the easiest gear, putting a maximum amount of torque on the freewheel. Because the threaded portion has a sharp inner corner rather than a proper fillet, it experiences a high stress concentration and is prone to fatigue here as a result. The 500 series rear motors use steel threads and we've never seen one of those fail.

On the Nine Continent DD hubmotors this is reported to be less of a problem but back in 2010 Nine Continent also decided to replace aluminum threaded portion with steel threaded portion:

Nine Continent Disk Motors

So we received samples of the new front and rear motors from Nine Continent that have an integrated 44mm ISO standard disk bolt pattern just over a week ago. Most of the mechanical details check out pretty good, and it means there is a viable alternative to Crystalyte for direct drive hubs that...

endless-sphere.com

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

I contacted leaf bike and they did tell me the 135mm 7 speed freewheel 1500w hub does in fact have steel threads on the side cover rather than aluminum threads.

 

[The Toecutter]

In over 20,000 miles of use, mostly at speeds of 30 mph or more, my Leafbike 1500W 4T cassette in a 26" wheel never developed any cracks in the casing. This includes 150W+ pedaling effort in the 6th or 7th gear 99% of the time(and on steep inclines, upwards of 700W pedaling for brief periods) and riding on roads laden with potholes often more than 5" deep.

This is a stoutly-built motor.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

QS also has a 135 mm 1500W motor, but there isn't much information. I find interesting that the phase wires are wider - 6 mm².

I PMed the SiAECOSYS/QSMOTOR rep ( QSMOTOR ) on this forum and they told me that this hub motor also has steel threads for the freewheel.

 

[Bullfrog]

I think I'll purchase the cassette version with 14mm on both sides, despite the short axle. I am still in touch with Peter from Leaf's service email. He mentioned that if I really want, they can try to purchase a custom-made axle for me from their axle supplier, but it will be expensive and time-consuming. It's a little bit funny, but he is know recommending that I search for another motor supplier with a longer shaft. I think he really has had enough of me.

Are there really some alternatives to Leaf? I found that QS also has a 135 mm 1500W motor, but there isn't much information. I find interesting that the phase wires are wider - 6 mm².

I am really curious about the Crystalyte H55 series of motors. Supposedly they are 135mm between drop outs and have a 55mm wide stator. Stealth electric bikes uses the H55 in some of the bikes they currently produce.

One will probably be the next motor I buy .

 

[vladrov]

Peter from Leaf support is frustrated with me and doesn't want to sell me the motor.

Because always have some personers ask too much technical information. Then provide it to other motor suppliers. At last,buy motors from other suppliers.

I am searching for alternatives. I'm awaiting responses from QS Motor, Crystalyte, Heinzmann, and others to see if they have anything similar to the Leaf 1500W. One of the biggest problems is that most manufacturers only offer freewheel versions. (Yes, I’m still a stubborn fan of the freehub).

I'm also considering the Grin All-Axle motor. The problem is that it's expensive and also smaller, less powerful, and not as efficient due to its size.

 

[vladrov]

Leaf has offered me a 12.1 kV motor, which doesn't correspond with the reports in the thread and has raised doubts for me. This is why our communication got messed up.

In the thread, it was mentioned that the 4T motor is 13.16 kV. Leaf told me that the difference between hand-wound and machine-wound 4T motors is around 70 rpm at 60V. The 13.16 kV was measured by Neptronix 9 years ago when they were only hand-winding the motors. A 70 rpm decrease would mean around 12 kV, which matches the motor they offered me.

Based on this, it seems that the machine-wound motor is significantly less powerful and efficient due to the machine winding and the reduced amount of copper that can be fitted into the motor. This aligns with the photos comparing the two methods. This is really bad news. Of course, the lower kV could be due to something else, and I would be happy if someone could prove me wrong.

 

[neptronix]

Peter wouldn't have so many questions if all his listings consistently contained accurate and relevant information.
On the other hand, the shopping experience is still a lot better than your typical chinese-owned company.

New motors may actually be more powerful because it has less end turn losses sapping power on every rotation. Possibly there is the same or very close to the same effective amount of copper. I would imagine they're a tad lighter, too.

Too bad they don't have an updated dyno sheet. By moving to super flat windings with much less end turn losses, i would bet they are more efficient.

I have an all axle and it's a fraction of the motor ( power wise ) compared to the leafbike 1.5kw. So nice to just have a quick release lever and not have to mess with torque arms, and love the weight, but don't expect it to provide thrilling amounts of power like a bigger motor would.

Power wise, the 30mm leaf 1kW and 9C RH212 are good middle grounds between a 27mm and 35mm motor. Which one is ideal for your situation depends on wheel size ( leaf is better in wheels 26" or under, RH212 has extra poles and diameter, so it would be ideal for 26" and above )

For efficiency purposes, the leaf 30mm should be the most efficient irregardless of wheel size. Typically the more square shaped the stator, the higher the efficiency is because end turn losses get minimized as a function of the stator's shape.

You may actually see higher efficiency from the RH212 while climbing hills if you have a 29" wheel due to it's additional poles and diameter.

 

[Bullfrog]

Peter wouldn't have so many questions if all his listings consistently contained accurate and relevant information.
On the other hand, the shopping experience is still a lot better than your typical chinese-owned company.

New motors may actually be more powerful because it has less end turn losses sapping power on every rotation. Possibly there is the same or very close to the same effective amount of copper. I would imagine they're a tad lighter, too.

Too bad they don't have an updated dyno sheet. By moving to super flat windings with much less end turn losses, i would bet they are more efficient.

I have an all axle and it's a fraction of the motor ( power wise ) compared to the leafbike 1.5kw. So nice to just have a quick release lever and not have to mess with torque arms, and love the weight, but don't expect it to provide thrilling amounts of power like a bigger motor would.

Power wise, the 30mm leaf 1kW and 9C RH212 are good middle grounds between a 27mm and 35mm motor. Which one is ideal for your situation depends on wheel size ( leaf is better in wheels 26" or under, RH212 has extra poles and diameter, so it would be ideal for 26" and above )

For efficiency purposes, the leaf 30mm should be the most efficient irregardless of wheel size. Typically the more square shaped the stator, the higher the efficiency is because end turn losses get minimized as a function of the stator's shape.

You may actually see higher efficiency from the RH212 while climbing hills if you have a 29" wheel due to it's additional poles and diameter.

I agree the RH212 with the extra pole should produce more torque but it is virtually cancelled out by the narrow stator that is 27mm wide.

I think the Leaf is better for everything than any other motor that has a narrower stator and it will compete well with any motor that has a 35mm stator. Plus you can push very high power levels for a short period of time but that is also true for almost any motor...just don't do it too long or you'll find the weak link in the chain and something will start melting.

The Crystalyte H55100 motor sure has captured my interest...55mm stator, .35mm/300 Grade laminations, 135mm OLD (width between drop outs), and 10 Kg. My leaf motor weighs a little over 16 lbs and 10 Kg=22 lbs. so not a lot heavier and much lighter than the QS205/Cromotor which are the other common motors with 50mm stators. I will admit the QS205 is a well built motor and capable of more power for longer periods of time but it is about 1.5 times the weight of the H55100. Heavy motors are great for higher power but they can negatively affect the way a bike handles by putting too much weight towards the rear which in turn can make the front wheel push/under steer...I can deal with the rear wheel slipping but if my front wheel slips, it causes a serious "Pucker" .

If I ever buy another motor, it will be the H55100 but I need to finish playing with my Leaf 1500w motor first and that might take a little while...I tried it on 52v/40A and it worked good but now I am hooking up an 18 FET Infineon clone controller, 72v battery capable of 80A continuous and 100A burst (BMS limited), and my Leaf motor is in a 24" SE Bikes J32S rim with a Schwalbe 24x2.6" Pick Up tire.

 

[neptronix]

If you've only put 40A into the Leafbike 1500w 4T, you're only a third of the way into the power it can produce..

RH212 is a nice contender for when you need ~75% of the power of the leaf.

 

[vladrov]

I came across the QS212 motor today. How does it compare with the Leaf? I found little information in the forum besides that thread. It is 1.6 kg heavier and doesn’t have temp sensor, but also has an M16 axle, is 212 mm with 26 poles and also very cheap.

In this Leaf thread, the 9C 212 is often used in the Grin Simulator to predict the thermal behavior of the Leaf because the Leaf doesn’t provide thermal results. However, the Crystalyte H3540 is available in the simulator, which has been thermally tested, even with Statorade. Isn’t this motor practically the same as the Leaf? The graphs are identical, right?

Also, in the simulator, the 9C HR212 appears more efficient and powerful. It runs a little hotter compared to the H3540 (assuming it is almost identical to the Leaf), but not by much. I thought the Leaf would perform better. Is there a catch?

 

[neptronix]

I've never heard of that motor either.

It's a boat anchor compared to the leaf 1.5kw and RH212:



Efficiency seems unreal, is QS really honest about their efficiency?



But they also say this in the listing, which is very similar to the RH212:


I dunno man, i couldn't live with that weight! The leaf is plenty heavy already :O

 

[Chalo]

I came across the QS212 motor today. How does it compare with the Leaf?

I like mine. Yes it's heavy. So is my battery, my bike, and myself. Not a deal breaker for me. The 135mm rear version really only has accommodations for a single speed freewheel. I bought a 3 speed freewheel for mine because the seller said it was compatible, but I can only use the outer two sprockets because the biggest one runs too close to the side cover.

16mm axle is super nice to have, but works better with a horizontal dropout slot which is rare anymore. I think the axle nuts are 24mm, so pocket sized wrenches are few.

 

[Bullfrog]

The QS212 is lighter than the Leaf 1500w motor so I am not sure why you guys are saying it is heavy????

vladrov...I use the Crystalyte 35xx series of motors to estimate my Leaf temperature. It is the closest motor in the drop down menu to the Leaf. The RH212 is pretty close but there is enough difference in the design that it could be off more than the Crystalyte 35xx series.

 

[neptronix]

QS212 1200W stated weight on webpage: 9 kg or 19.8 lbs
Leafbike 1500w stated weight on webpage: 7.35 kg or 16.2 lbs
RH212 1200W stated weight on webpage: 6.5 kg or 14.3 lbs

 

[Cowardlyduck]

And with a bit of FF and temp monitoring they are all really 3000W+ motors all day long.

Cheers

 

[gromike]

I don't know why you guys even bother. Here's a full suspension production ebike for under $2000, WIRED Freedom , that peaks at 3200w, 1500w continuous. It comes with a total of 35ah in (2) 60v batteries.
A guy who bought one said on EBR that it can do 40 mph, him thinking more or less continuously.
What could possibly be wrong with this deal of an ebike?

 

[neptronix]

Umm, i think they cut some corners to get that battery capacity; that's about my cost for a DIY build at retail with quality components.

You're not getting quality components at this retail cost and you also don't have regen. Huge negatives.
You can also only buy it in one size, 18.3", and the frame honestly looks questionable. The rider positioning is bad for fast speed, not suitable for something that can go that fast.

I wouldn't buy it, i'd rather build & know i can get replacement parts down the line / don't have vendor lockout crap even if the price between building and buying is 1:1.

 

[Chalo]

Umm, i think they cut some corners to get that battery capacity; that's about my cost for a DIY build at retail with quality components.

You're not getting quality components at this retail cost and you also don't have regen. Huge negatives.
You can also only buy it in one size, 18.3", and the frame honestly looks questionable. The rider positioning is bad for fast speed, not suitable for something that can go that fast.

I wouldn't buy it, i'd rather build & know i can get replacement parts down the line / don't have vendor lockout crap even if the price between building and buying is 1:1.

Yeah, it looks like department store/mail order quality with a few fancier but still not-reputable checklist items thrown in. I strongly doubt it would have the typical anti-servicing features of a major brand e-bike, but all the same I think it would be easy to do better for equal or less outlay if you know what you're doing. And then you could have a bike that actually fits you and your personal preferences, rather than letting some hustler take a guess at what the average size, average knowledge sucker wants.

 

[Cowardlyduck]

I don't know why you guys even bother. Here's a full suspension production ebike for under $2000, WIRED Freedom , that peaks at 3200w, 1500w continuous. It comes with a total of 35ah in (2) 60v batteries.
A guy who bought one said on EBR that it can do 40 mph, him thinking more or less continuously.
What could possibly be wrong with this deal of an ebike?

There are 2 main reasons...

For the last 10-15 years many of us have been in this ebike game, nothing like that has existed....till recently. In that time many of us have built up a ton of knowledge, experience and know how on how to do this ourselves to get exactly what we want. Many of us (including me) enjoy building something ourselves to be exactly what we want....why would we just throw all that away to get something massively compromised and off-the-shelf?

2nd reason is that you get what you pay for, and a good chunk of what you're paying for in a bike like that is profit for the company. Meaning they've cut corners where-ever possible. Build it yourself and you can choose where to cut corners, knowing what could fail as a result. The commercial options like above are getting better all the time, and I am genuinely tempted, but at the same time....for the same money, I could build something way nicer and know what is likely to fail and why if I've chosen cheaper parts anywhere.

Cheers