Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

[amberwolf]

What are the riding conditions it gets hot under? (terrain, slope, speed, wind, weight, sustained and peak power levels, etc)

If it is getting extremely hot without extreme conditions, you probably have a false positive phase/hall combo, and should look into the autotune / self-learn features of your controller, etc.

 

[yantra yatra]

Riding stop start on small hills at first, and pushing about 3-4k up a big very steep hill. Will check the auto tune function out. But I think it’s just pushing it under conditions that are trying. Sounds like hubsinks won’t add much cooling beyond the statorade already inside.

Is it pretty much essential to use rim tape or a rim liner? The rim has big holes above the spoke ends, and the tube stretches into them and popped. Not sure if rim tape will be strong enough or need a liner.

Thinking to put a Schwalbe Pick Up (cargo tyre with very high durability/puncture protection) on rear with super moto x on front, 2.35”

 

[phobos]

I always use some kind of rim tape, if you're running a tube electrical tape should be enough.You should consider running tubeless, it's easier to repair in the field without removing the wheel compared to replacing a tube.

 

[E-HP]

Yea I added the statorade, still got extremely hot so will have to be careful. And get a temp sensor working some time

If it’s hot on the outside, it’s cooking on the inside. I was doing some voltage sag testing and wasn't paying attention to my temps and noticed my power decreasing suddenly after a steep section. My high temp rollback kicked in without me knowing it, and when I looked, I was at 108C. Case was just warm outside, not hot. A minute more and I’d be pushing it home. I’ve seen my temp rise 10C within a few seconds hitting the throttle in a slow switchback, so it can rise quickly in certain situations. It’s still a 1500W motor.
Luckily my CA rolled power back to under 2k and the temp started dropping immediately.

 

[The Toecutter]

About 2 years ago, I've had to do internal phase wire repair of my 4T Leafbike motor in a 26" wheel after running 10kW peaks for too long in my tadpole trike. I had a hubsink and ferrofluid, but the temp sensing wasn't working. After taking the motor apart and repairing the wiring, it's now serving a second life in the mountainbike at 1500W peak minus the hubsink.

The trike now has a 3T running 10kW peak in a smaller 20" equivalent wheel. No problems yet, although that is going to soon be swapped out for a differential, two new rear wheels, and a Cyclone mid drive with Grin all-Axle 3T front hub motors, converting it into a quad with AWD and 20+ kW peak. I'm going to have to find another use for this 3T Leafbike motor.

 

[hillslayer@]

About 2 years ago, I've had to do internal phase wire repair of my 4T Leafbike motor in a 26" wheel after running 10kW peaks for too long in my tadpole trike. I had a hubsink and ferrofluid, but the temp sensing wasn't working. After taking the motor apart and repairing the wiring, it's now serving a second life in the mountainbike at 1500W peak minus the hubsink.

ttThe trike now has a 3T running 10kW peak in a smaller 20" equivalent wheel. No problems yet, although that is going to soon be swapped out for a differential, two new rear wheels, and a Cyclone mid drive with Grin all-Axle 3T front hub motors, converting it into a quad with AWD and 20+ kW peak. I'm going to have to find another use for this 3T Leafbike motor.

How do you keep it on the road? Are you cruising at 70 mph.

 

[The Toecutter]

How do you keep it on the road? Are you cruising at 70 mph.

I typically cruise around 30 mph using under 1 kW plus pedaling. I only do stupid things when no one is looking. I have gone 70 mph a few times using the 3T motor without the body shell on the trike running a 20S6P pack of Molicel P42A, and it needed all 10 kW to cruise and only for about 2 miles at a time. With a body on it, I suspect its top speed increase will be significant and it might see its power requirements drop to 1/3 at speed. With field weakening, 100+ mph may even be possible with a single motor with an aerodynamic shell on it. Acceleration is faster than most cars.

That said, it is currently not on the road as I have it taken apart for upgrades. I'm waiting on more parts to arrive because the 4th gen KMX spindles in my possession do not fit the 2nd gen and 3rd gen frames I have, so I'm having a piece of the front suspension that was made to fit my front hub motors and 4th gen spindle instead made to fit my 3rd gen spindles that do fit. I will have to take the suspension apart and install the new piece.

The 2nd KMX frame I might use to build another tadpole to make use of this 3T motor, while I convert my current one into a quad. I will eventually have a body shell on both vehicles, plus the Milan running a 2kW 26" Grin All-Axle setup(I still have to widen the rear wheel well of that one due to a rubbing issue). I think I'll set the tadpole trike up like an open-wheel open-cockpit race car for summer riding with the design tailored to allowing me lots of airflow, the quad will be an enclosed streamliner with a digital HUD projecting speed on the windscreen for riding in rain and inclement weather and will be my comfy "GT car", and I might build one more e-bike maybe a delta trike or another quad to use as a low-speed "pickup truck". The Milan is eventually going to be my ultimate "long-range" build due to its efficiency, once we have 7AH 21770 cells available to make a pack out of and will also have the least storage space of my vehicles other than the mountainbike(which I can wear a backpack while riding) and this Milan may be able to be set up for 400+ miles range @ 30 mph.

As for the mountainbike, I might eventually swap it out for a new steel frame with a longer wheelbase, more room for batteries, also full suspension, DOT brakes/rims/tires, and make it into a 50+ mph 72V stealth build that looks like a "normal" bicycle as much as possible within the context of these upgrades, that also runs 10kW peak. Should I do this, the mountainbike will remain something very basic maybe even downgraded to 750W while the new stealth build bike fills the role of "motorcycle".

With a fleet of these things, I can assure I always have transportation when one or two of them are down for repairs or upgrades.

 

[yantra yatra]

I feel like a lightweight mid-drive combo (photon Gen 2) with a DD or a geared hub like the new Bafang 5kw peak may be good options to reduce the overheating on hills climbs.

It also occurred to me that if there were really good heat transfer to the spokes from the motor case and they were made from material that was quite heat conductive this could’ve a good way of dissipating some heat, though I guess hubsinks would do the same but better.

Will def get a temp sensor

 

[neptronix]

Smaller wheels would help a lot, even improve efficiency on the flats.
Not sure what wheel size you got.

I had holes drilled in the sides of my motor to handle hills. it worked.. but it's a little desperate. Try hubsinks first.

 

[hillslayer@]

I feel like a lightweight mid-drive combo (photon Gen 2) with a DD or a geared hub like the new Bafang 5kw peak may be good options to reduce the overheating on hills climbs.

It also occurred to me that if there were really good heat transfer to the spokes from the motor case and they were made from material that was quite heat conductive this hcould’ve a good way of dissipating some heat, though I guess hubsinks would do the same but better.

Will def get a temp sensor

Mid -drive hub combo is the way if you live in the hills. Have thousands of miles on mine and see no reason to use high amps or voltage, neither motor ever gets really hot.

 

[E-HP]

I feel like a lightweight mid-drive combo (photon Gen 2) with a DD or a geared hub like the new Bafang 5kw peak may be good options to reduce the overheating on hills climbs.

It also occurred to me that if there were really good heat transfer to the spokes from the motor case and they were made from material that was quite heat conductive this could’ve a good way of dissipating some heat, though I guess hubsinks would do the same but better.

Will def get a temp sensor

If you got the 4T, then it might be the wrong winding if you’re climbing hills a lot, especially with 26” wheels. The 5T and 24” wheels performs great on hills and still does over 50mph with 20S on flat ground, with field weakening.
This is my testing route for temp testing. 800ft climb, 10%-17% then 20% for the last half. I hit 90C by the top if I’m smooth on the throttle and hold 20mph. With a temp monitor, you’ll see that smooth throttle is key, since gunning it will dump a lot of heat into the motor. If I climb closer to 30mph, I need to stop 2/3 of the way up to let it cool down.

 

[neptronix]

Nah, winding changes won't help you on this motor. Unless your battery can't supply sufficient amps and you're losing efficiency to that. Then going

This type of motor design is most efficient in a 20" or 22" wheel. The closer you are to that, the better it will be at climbing

 

[neptronix]

For example, here's an all axle in a 20" wheel climbing a 10% grade no problem, it'll do it all day.







Now put it in a 29" wheel and it's a totally different story.. just takes a 6.1% difference in efficiency to cook it in 21 minutes



But you have 10mm less stator than this so you need small wheel a bit more..

 

[E-HP]

Nah, winding changes won't help you on this motor. Unless your battery can't supply sufficient amps and you're losing efficiency to that. Then going

This type of motor design is most efficient in a 20" or 22" wheel. The closer you are to that, the better it will be at climbing

Enlightening. Made me go play with a bunch of different motors in the simulator with different windings, comparing at the same speeds. I see the biggest difference seems to be the phase amps, which go way up with the faster wind motor. Otherwise, everything else is similar with only small differences in efficiency.

 

[amberwolf]

Riding stop start on small hills at first, and pushing about 3-4k up a big very steep hill. Will check the auto tune function out. But I think it’s just pushing it under conditions that are trying.

Best thing you can do is to ensure you are riding it up that hill at a speed that is efficient for that motor in your wheelsize, current, and voltage. If you ride it slow enough then it's less efficient, and heats up more from that wasted energy, along with the existing load-used power.

In most cases keeping the motor spinning faster for a given power output from it will create less waste heat and waste less of your battery capacity as that heat. This usually means a smaller wheel size for a hubmotor, or a lower gear on a middrive.

Sounds like hubsinks won’t add much cooling beyond the statorade already inside.

Hubsinks work with the statorade to get the heat off the rotor so that the heat you push from the stator into the rotor magnets doesn't build up and damage the magnets.

Hubsinks *without* statorade don't do much to cool the heat-generating portion of the motor (stator), they just keep the magnets and shell a bit cooler.

Is it pretty much essential to use rim tape or a rim liner? The rim has big holes above the spoke ends, and the tube stretches into them and popped. Not sure if rim tape will be strong enough or need a liner.

I use gorilla tape in place of rim tape. The rim liners that are plastic strips that come on cheap wheels work too, but some of them have sharp edges or pointy bits at the overlap seam, defeating the purpose of preventing tube problems.

 

[amberwolf]

I feel like a lightweight mid-drive combo (photon Gen 2) with a DD or a geared hub like the new Bafang 5kw peak may be good options to reduce the overheating on hills climbs.

The geared hub would be worse, because it has more layers for the heat to go thru to escape.

But a properly-selected gear ratio set from middrive to wheel can certainly increase motor efficiency.

If you have not done so, I HIGHLY recommend playing with the ebikes.ca motor and trip simulators until you are comfortable with them and understand what they are showing you, and then use them to find out how different systems will perform under your actual conditions (which you will have to gather specific accurate data on for this to work).

It also occurred to me that if there were really good heat transfer to the spokes from the motor case and they were made from material that was quite heat conductive this could’ve a good way of dissipating some heat

There is insuffiicnet surface area betweenspokes and rotor to do any significant heat transter.

If you had a "mag wheel" where the spokes are just a few large solid pieces of the rotor itself that then continue out to be solid pieces of the rim, then that might help, if the whole wheel and bike is designed in a way to force sufficient airflow over all of this to be effective.

But a mag wheel removes the things that actual spoked wheels can do for you, and makes the wheel much heavier (and unrepairable in the event of a rim problem).

 

[hillslayer@]

If you're doing some terrain that requires slow speeds I always turn my 3 speed switch to the lowest setting. There is no reason to dump a high amp load if it's just going to turn into heat. On my 50 amp controller that low setting is 1000 watts or less.

 

[yantra yatra]

Heaps of great practical information in this thread for using this motor. I have a temp sensor from the factory installed, white wire in the 6 pin plug - does anyone know if I can use this wire to another temp monitor display? As the controller doesn’t have a corresponding wire or function to use it

 

[ZeroEm]

Enlightening. Made me go play with a bunch of different motors in the simulator with different windings, comparing at the same speeds. I see the biggest difference seems to be the phase amps, which go way up with the faster wind motor. Otherwise, everything else is similar with only small differences in efficiency.

The combos are crazy, tried to replace amps with Volts. Did not want to go to bigger wiring and high amps. Ordered a 7T leafmotor and run on 72V. 35A. 35A is all my battery will do with out hurting it. My next battery will do more. Don't need more.

 

[neptronix]

Enlightening. Made me go play with a bunch of different motors in the simulator with different windings, comparing at the same speeds. I see the biggest difference seems to be the phase amps, which go way up with the faster wind motor. Otherwise, everything else is similar with only small differences in efficiency.

Yes, basically there is a +/-3% difference between windings and it has to do with primarily with the copper fill per diameter of wire they use.

Once you account for making sure wiring and traces on the controller are thick enough, corrected for the amps you put in, what battery you chose, etc etc, the max difference is 3%

I did 45mph on this with a 12S lipo, huge controller, enormous wires, and beefed up traces on the controller.
I also had low friction tires on top, both at 60psi, letting the suspension do the job of countering that.

The amount of voltage drop was comically low even on those 5 year old 20C lipos and my biggest problem was keeping the front wheel on the road.

Low turn count can be very efficient if done right, but it is harder to do right.

 

[hillslayer@]

For example, here's an all axle in a 20" wheel climbing a 10% grade no problem, it'll do it all day.





View attachment 381575

Now put it in a 29" wheel and it's a totally different story.. just takes a 6.1% difference in efficiency to cook it in 21 minutes

View attachment 381577

But you have 10mm less stator than this so you need small wheel a bit more..

Battery voltage and controller's are different not apples to apples.

 

[neptronix]

Battery voltage and controller's are different not apples to apples.

It's very important to equalize the speed when comparing two motors with different size wheels that require either a different winding, or different combination of volts/amps to hit the same speed. In this case, a fast winding doesn't exist.

It would be a less useful comparison if i didn't make that adjustment.

 

[hillslayer@]

I was just wondering why the difference thanks for explaining.

 

[n00b]

Riding stop start on small hills at first, and pushing about 3-4k up a big very steep hill. Will check the auto tune function out. But I think it’s just pushing it under conditions that are trying. Sounds like hubsinks won’t add much cooling beyond the statorade already inside.

Is it pretty much essential to use rim tape or a rim liner? The rim has big holes above the spoke ends, and the tube stretches into them and popped. Not sure if rim tape will be strong enough or need a liner.

Thinking to put a Schwalbe Pick Up (cargo tyre with very high durability/puncture protection) on rear with super moto x on front, 2.35”

It's called a rim band. Good wheel makers will have one on them already.
Somehow I just had to put 2 on recently, though.
And I had them. Snapped rim bands have aggravated me more than 1 time in my life.,

 

[n00b]

I feel like a lightweight mid-drive combo (photon Gen 2) with a DD or a geared hub like the new Bafang 5kw peak may be good options to reduce the overheating on hills climbs.

It also occurred to me that if there were really good heat transfer to the spokes from the motor case and they were made from material that was quite heat conductive this could’ve a good way of dissipating some heat, though I guess hubsinks would do the same but better.

Will def get a temp sensor

Bah, I've had a temp sensor for years.
The bag for it contains the controller for my latest e-bike build.
It's a "Fluke".