speedmd
10 MW
Munro posted a new vid showing the rear Lucid motor assm.. Center diff, stacked halbach arrays, and continuous wave windings! Worth a look.
Lucid teardown
- Thread starter speedmd
- Start date
Thanks for posting this, it's really interesting to see inside. It's clear they have some talented engineers.
I'm not sure if this is the same one,
electrek.co
I'm not sure if this is the same one,
Lucid unveils an EV racing motor but – spoiler alert! – it's already driving Formula E's Gen3 cars
Lucid Group has shared an interestingly timed press release late this evening/early this morning, depending on where you live. The...
electrek.co
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speedmd
10 MW
Not sure what the changes are on the formula E platform powerplant. They were restricted battery pack wise on the race platform and that could explain the lower claimed power numbers compared to the newer road version. Nice to see a bit of throwing everything at the wall approach leading to some excellent performance levels for those that can afford it. Many of the little tweaks can over time be incorporated into other features or parts and cost reductions should follow at the same performance levels.
I think they're using the front axle / motor in Formula E for regen only.
I hope their packaging and build efficiencies will end up in other products or at least push others to improve. Or maybe they will sell their motors to others. I haven't been able to find any info on being able to buy them.
I wonder if McLaren squeezed Lucid out of Formula E..until they needed a front axle powerful enough to recoup what would have been otherwise all wasted through friction brakes.
speedmd
10 MW
Don't follow the rules much on the Fomula E these days. The last change I was aware of was the switch to a dual power train setup and a good bump from 250KW to 600KW max power. Still a bit under the road car's output. No secrete that there is pressure on the sports players to keep them a bit slower than the gassers. Wont work forever!
speedmd
10 MW
Munro does a nice summary of the drive units, and comparing the complete package performance to the Model S Plaid. 900V in the lucid vs 350V listed for the Plaid.
It was great to see the two powertrains side by side. But it would have been more apples to apples to see the plaid vs the sapphire on the table.
It's strange that they list similar efficiencies in their chart. 3.96 miles per kWh for the plaid and 3.99 for the lucid.
But the plaid gets 98 eMPG and the lucid gets a 140 eMPG rating.
4.16 miles per kWh for the lucid.
2.94 miles per kWh for the plaid.
That's a huge difference / error someone made.
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speedmd
10 MW
3.96 plaid vs 3.99 for the lucid miles/ KWh going by results. Forget the OEM claims IMO. Hoping to find some dyno runs for the lucid to see how that also compares to claims. Looks like potentially a great crate motor for a older sports car. Super light.
Interesting comparing the dual rear motor tesla setup vs the single motor lucid. The sapphire would eliminate the smaller center diff on the rear. It would keep the dual reduction gear box setup as on the Plaid rear, however they are much more compact. Given the issues on early tesla reduction gearboxes, the smaller lucid units may not hold up as long. The front end of the tesla could certainly benefit from a lighter center diff if it shows to be able to holdup as well. It should also benefit from the hair pin or continuous wound stator. Would potentially take even more mass out of the front end of the plaid and improve other performance characteristics. The higher system voltage is a interesting compare. Time will tell how these 900v systems age but certainly could entertain further potential weight reductions.
Interesting comparing the dual rear motor tesla setup vs the single motor lucid. The sapphire would eliminate the smaller center diff on the rear. It would keep the dual reduction gear box setup as on the Plaid rear, however they are much more compact. Given the issues on early tesla reduction gearboxes, the smaller lucid units may not hold up as long. The front end of the tesla could certainly benefit from a lighter center diff if it shows to be able to holdup as well. It should also benefit from the hair pin or continuous wound stator. Would potentially take even more mass out of the front end of the plaid and improve other performance characteristics. The higher system voltage is a interesting compare. Time will tell how these 900v systems age but certainly could entertain further potential weight reductions.
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The Lucid efficiency numbers are a bit better than other manufacturers. It's an extra 25% range vs the Tesla setup if true is why I mentioned it.
The sapphire rear motors are compact but pretty wide even for a large car,
I'm curious to see if they were able to tuck in the gear reduction into the rotor of the sapphire rear motors or if it's just outside.
I wonder what that will look like in a small / fun car. Seems like it would be wider than a typical subframe. I couldn't find dimensions for the lucid dual motor.
Do you mean the early 2 speed Tesla gearboxes?
I'm surprised others aren't using planetary reductions in ev designs, seems like it's the best option to me. It's a well proven method and very compact. Formula E is giving the single motor with diff quite the stress test but only in regen currently.
The higher voltage means a lot less current for the same power levels. Less heat, less copper, less weight but more insulation and potential danger. The high system voltage could likely be a significant do it yourself challenge for swaps.
Luke was right about the Lucid batteries not being potted.
The mica series dividers they mention are interesting, seems they also used the mica in the hummer ev battery. Makes sense for electrical isolation but I wonder what they would do if anything to prevent a pack fire from spreading.
Munro didn't get into the battery casing material (plastic) having fillers in it or not. Fillers in the plastic have the potential to help extinguish a pack fire. Seems this could be a way around potting for pack safety, leaving them to be rebuilt or recycled much easier. That's the way I'd try to go anyways.
speedmd
10 MW
I recall earlier mod S with gearboxes developing noise and many being replaced. Not sure what the issue was. May have been some bad material, design, or build quality, but they took care of all of the problem units to my knowledge. They were the standard dual reduction stepped spur gear setup much as they look now but not built as robust. I believe they upped the bearings.
Planetary can certainly be very compact as is also the smaller center diff stuffed into the hollow rotor core and by handling motor torque vs ratio reduction multiplied torque. Totally trick! Munro did not share the costing details, but certain he sold a few report copies to other OEM's. With much fewer of these high end lucid setups on the road, it will take much longer for these aging issues to show and possibly easier to keep things out of public view on the repair front. From a shock load standpoint, the light weight race car most likely will have lower peak forces on the drive line than a heavy road car when the tires hook up. Very compact and impressive single motor setup. If costs are not out of line and they hold up as well, I could see many others copying the concepts.
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speedmd
10 MW
Peter does a good show of the motor details in this vid. Still looking for some good dyno data. Hard to confidently accept the numbers without some real world data. Still, very tricked out setup in terms of power density. Published numbers are not at all reliable IMO.
speedmd
10 MW
Looks like they got a lifeline from Aston Martin for power units fortunately. Brian (my tesla weekend) had a bad news vid yesterday on youtube (below) with some insider info that spells doom long term for lucid. I have found him a very reliable privateer so far. Munro shared their concerns also on areas of the build that are somewhat overpacked and could be difficult to make or rework. Found it Interesting that the lack of safeties in the case of one of the power units failing could cause a daisey chain of destruction to the BMS and battery. Some 70K to replace. Would think a simple fuse could prevent this. They have some big backers, so I think they will be around for a bit.
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I had a really hard time listening to that video. Lots of words but nothing shared as proof or even a reference to back any of it up along with a lot of clickbait.
The Aston Martin info is interesting. I'm selfishly hoping lucid sells motors, inverters, chargers, batteries, etc. but I'm not sure if it will weaken the brand.
I found a different view of the sapphire motor. Gear reductions are outside the motors.
speedmd
10 MW
Agree, but after seeing his reporting come true time and time again, it is worth at least a listen IMO if your interested or invested. They have inventory of finished cars at the moment so we can confirm that. Confidential insiders sharing large number of order cancelations is the main take away from it for me. The service issues also have been reported by more than a few owners. Brian and Herbert did a point by point yesterday with much more detail, but still leaves you wondering a bit.
Power unit looks great. Looks expensive also. Hard to see them getting to volume - cost effective production without some larger players adapting them and forcing some cost improvements and serviceability to the designs. Long term battery durability also a concern. All much to rich for my blood but great to see it develop.
