??! Magnetic field on 18650 lithium-ion batteries improves them!?

[Logic11]

I was looking at MHD (Magneto HydroDynamic) drives, so it occurred to me to look at what effect a magnetic field had on batteries.
True as nuts; it improves them!

(Full Paper)

Study on the influence of magnetic field on the performance of lithium-ion batteries:​

"...The charge–discharge performance with imposing magnetic field is better than that without imposing magnetic field. The discharge capacity, charge capacity discharge energy and charge energy increase obviously, and they all increase with magnetic induction intensity...

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352484722003420

So basically + N; - S to improves them.
I have no practical idea how strong an X Tesla field is or how big and heavy a magnet/s is required to get a noticeable effect but doubt lugging a magnet and cell sandwich around is worth it?
Perhaps thin coin shaped magnets of the right diameter is a great way to stick all those button cells together in a series cylinder..?

This may help for charging and stationary batteries however?
Perhaps simply aligning your charging pack with the earths magnetic field will help a smidge? Cant hurt.

Or; align your bike's cells horizontally and only ever ride North. Don't come back!

 

[Diggs]

My induction heater (strong magnetic field) would fit an 18650 perfectly but I'm assuming that's not what they meant.... chuckles..

(It does make me want to do a field experiment though.)

 

[Logic11]

I took a closer look at this:

"...discharge capacity is found to be 2.46 Ah when the battery is not placed in the magnetic field...
When the magnetic induction intensity increases to 39.50 mT, the discharge capacity is 2.89 Ah, which increases by 17.48%..."

I assume mT is micro Tesla (1000 mT per T)
These 18mm diameter (same as 18650 batteries) are 234 mT!

18mm x 3mm 45/64in x 1/8in N52 Discs Rare Earth Neodymium Magnet 18x3mm

Pull Force: 10.71 LBDimensions: 18mm diameter x 3mm thickness, (0.709in x 0.118in) approx. 45/64in x 1/8inMaterial Features: Neodymium (chemical symbol Nd) is element 60 on the periodic table. It is a rare earth metal and forms one of the Lanthanides series. When added to Ir

jc-magnetics.com

Cell weight = 45g
Magnet (x2) weight =20.4g
So 45% weight increase for ???% capacity increase at 234mT?

So this is more interesting than I thought! How often is it easy to get a 17% improvement nowadays!?
They talk of an increase in both power and energy density.
It looks worthwhile for stationary charging and constant speed vehicles?
Maybe even during acceleration..?

 

[scianiac]

I also did some math when I saw this but I think you got some things wrong there, mT should be millitesla not micro that would be uT. And that is the field strength inside the whole cell, the magnet strength listed on magnets is the surface strength so once you put some either side of a cell the field is vastly weaker. Using some 3/4in by 1/16 in neo magnets from KJ magnetics I found one on either side of the cell would make an average field in the cell of 137uT and far weaker in the middle, so nowhere even near the strength used in the paper. That did not factor in how the construction of the battery would effect things but it may make it worse or better idk but probably enough to get where we need to be. So that seems to indicate the magnets would need to be quite large.

I considered maybe using lots of smaller magnets inbetween the cells but kinda hard to fight the inverse sqaure law.

 

[Logic11]

I also did some math when I saw this but I think you got some things wrong there, mT should be millitesla not micro that would be uT. And that is the field strength inside the whole cell, the magnet strength listed on magnets is the surface strength so once you put some either side of a cell the field is vastly weaker. Using some 3/4in by 1/16 in neo magnets from KJ magnetics I found one on either side of the cell would make an average field in the cell of 137uT and far weaker in the middle, so nowhere even near the strength used in the paper. That did not factor in how the construction of the battery would effect things but it may make it worse or better idk but probably enough to get where we need to be. So that seems to indicate the magnets would need to be quite large.

I considered maybe using lots of smaller magnets inbetween the cells but kinda hard to fight the inverse sqaure law.

Thx scianiac

Umm...
m is milli. 1000 milli T (mT) in 1 Tesla (in this case)
u is micro. 1 000 000 micro T (uT) in 1Tesla

Metric (SI) Prefixes

As of August 16, 2023 the physics.nist.gov historic SI Units site has permanently retired.

www.nist.gov

And 10 000 Gauss per Tesla
So 2340 Gauss per (linked) magnet = 0.234T = 234mT
My maths is correct as far as I can tell..?

I just had a look and the outer cylinder is A3 Steel.

What’s inside an 18650 cell? And why its important

There has been a boom in ebike builders making their own battery packs out of the popular 18650-format cells (18mm diameter, 65mm long), and I want to share what I’ve found out about the guts…

www.electricbike.com

No info on thickness or what A3 means.

But yes; the field will concentrate in it some and has to be taken into consideration.
Also the para? or dia? magnetic copper aluminum graphite 'jelly role'.
So ye; the maths would get pretty complicated and likely go well over my head.

I would say testing a cell with 2 off the shelf magnets to see if there was a measurable difference would be more productive.
Did you perhaps do any?

 

[scianiac]

Yes your math is correct, I just pointed out the units because later in the post I used the correct units and then my numbers would be confusing. The real issue is that magnets are rated as surface field strength so even a few mm away the strength has decreased greatly at the inverse square law. But yeah you can see why I stopped at a rough approximation and didn't try and estimate how the metal can, and cell internals would effect things.

I was actually thinking about doing a test, might do that if I have some time.

 

[belllfador]

In this case para and dia are not for consideration. Only the steel can will disturb a bit the magnetic field. Using FEA I manage to calculate what will be field density inside of the 18650 cell:


And if we put NdFe magnets D20 H10 mm:


Personally I don't believe in significant M field influence, but probably will use my 20x20 magnet in the next capacity check.

 

[belllfador]

Just to end the story - several tests show no significant difference with magnets. I play with two 20x20mm NdFe35 magnets, one 18650 energy cell and one 20700 power cell. The differences in capacity were in the range of the error and temperature influence +/- 2%

 

[Logic11]

Just to end the story - several tests show no significant difference with magnets. I play with two 20x20mm NdFe35 magnets, one 18650 energy cell and one 20700 power cell. The differences in capacity were in the range of the error and temperature influence +/- 2%

Thx belllfador.
If there's another forum where there's someone who will actually give ideas like this a try; I haven't found it.
Here's an example of what normally happens: BORPower additive? - Page 3 - Fuel Economy, Hypermiling, EcoModding News and Forum - EcoModder.com

 

[marvin78]

Interesting topic.

I am with the skeptics here, not claiming to have a phd in physics I can't even follow most of the paper linked.

Conservation of energy principle I do understand though, and this seems to break it. If a magnetic field enhances ability for electrons to flow between atoms, it makes this process more efficient it doesn't add free energy. Unless the process itself was flawed and not all the existing energy was utilized, and a higher efficiency allows higher levels of utilization.

Either way, there is no free energy. Feels like 'my battery pack has internal heating, which makes it operate at more efficient temperatures' but then forgetting that this heating element also takes power. Now the total efficiency increases, because the efficiency increases more then the heating element pulls out.

If this magnetic field thing is the same though, where does the energy come from I keep coming back to? It doesn't sound like you could use an electromagnet and run it from the primary source/battery to increase it's own efficiency past the additional load it would put on it, like they do with heating elements to increase efficiency ( and working temperature range ).

So you use rare earth elements like neodymium.. but then you have no control over field orientation and strength other then 'on' or 'off' ( by not placing it ). But that's ok, because you're not taking energy from the magnetic field, you're only allowing the magnetic field to allow better electron migration thus removing current process inefficiencies.

Seems the more I read, the more it's really legit and it does work in lab settings... al lab settings seem to use induced electromagnets ofc course, to give them that granular control over their experiments. So it does work, but it doesn't seem to scale down to rare earth elements, and if inducing the magnetic field using the battery itself was efficient enough where it wouldn't cost more power then it would generate we would have seen more of it by now.

So I guess this is a dead end research path?

 

[Logic11]

Interesting topic.

I am with the skeptics here, not claiming to have a phd in physics I can't even follow most of the paper linked.

Conservation of energy principle I do understand though, and this seems to break it. If a magnetic field enhances ability for electrons to flow between atoms, it makes this process more efficient it doesn't add free energy. Unless the process itself was flawed and not all the existing energy was utilized, and a higher efficiency allows higher levels of utilization.

Either way, there is no free energy. Feels like 'my battery pack has internal heating, which makes it operate at more efficient temperatures' but then forgetting that this heating element also takes power. Now the total efficiency increases, because the efficiency increases more then the heating element pulls out.

If this magnetic field thing is the same though, where does the energy come from I keep coming back to? It doesn't sound like you could use an electromagnet and run it from the primary source/battery to increase it's own efficiency past the additional load it would put on it, like they do with heating elements to increase efficiency ( and working temperature range ).

So you use rare earth elements like neodymium.. but then you have no control over field orientation and strength other then 'on' or 'off' ( by not placing it ). But that's ok, because you're not taking energy from the magnetic field, you're only allowing the magnetic field to allow better electron migration thus removing current process inefficiencies.

Seems the more I read, the more it's really legit and it does work in lab settings... al lab settings seem to use induced electromagnets ofc course, to give them that granular control over their experiments. So it does work, but it doesn't seem to scale down to rare earth elements, and if inducing the magnetic field using the battery itself was efficient enough where it wouldn't cost more power then it would generate we would have seen more of it by now.

So I guess this is a dead end research path?

I should finish reading before I start typing.
Yep; stop the ions from crashing into neutral molecules and their opposites and you have a hugely efficient battery, or Hydrogen electrolyser, or etc...

My initial reply:

If I were to... 'hazard a guess':​

You have ions moving in the electrolyte:​

+ ions from the + electrode, toward the - and - ions doing the opposite.​

If these + and - ions meet, (Likely, being attracted) they react.​

​

You don't want that: You want the ions to reach the oppositely charged electrode for the battery to work.​

It's all the high speed ( due to: repelled and attracted) ions crashing into other neutral molecules and their opposites that causes batteries to get hot/inefficiency.​

(It's the reason for the ever shrinking gap between electrodes)​

​

So the direction of moving ions can be changed by a magnetic field.​

If you can arrange the field so they crash into each other less and more make it to the electrodes you have a more efficient battery.​

If you can arrange the field so they never crash into each other and all arrive at the electrodes; you can retire on the fortune that comes with that​

IF the oil industry doesn't take you out! ​

​

No over-unity reqd.​

 

[belllfador]

There are other papers related to metal deposition using electrical current - electrolyse. In some of them effect of external magnetic field is investigated and the results are positive. Metal deposition has a smoother surface, efficienty is better. Processes in our batteries have some similarity, so there are logic chemical catalyst to be extenal magnetic field. Unfortunaly use of magnets during charge-discharge don't impact internal resistance or capasity in significant way. To me the paper that start our disscusion become highly questionable.

 

[Logic11]

There are other papers related to metal deposition using electrical current - electrolyse. In some of them effect of external magnetic field is investigated and the results are positive. Metal deposition has a smoother surface, efficienty is better. Processes in our batteries have some similarity, so there are logic chemical catalyst to be extenal magnetic field. Unfortunaly use of magnets during charge-discharge don't impact internal resistance or capasity in significant way. To me the paper that start our disscusion become highly questionable.

Interesting. I'll look that up when time allows.
Links perhaps?

 

[belllfador]

Interesting. I'll look that up when time allows.
Links perhaps?

Influence of constant magnetic field on electrodeposition of metals, alloys, conductive polymers, and organic reactions​

Influence of constant magnetic field on electrodeposition of metals, alloys, conductive polymers, and organic reactions - Journal of Solid State Electrochemistry

The paper presents and summarizes some research on constant magnetic field effects in chemistry. Metals and alloys electrodeposited under constant magnetic field have greater thickness and smoother surface with finest grains. Metallic materials deposited under the influence of uniform magnetic...

link.springer.com

 

[MxusMick]

Cool read, I have lots of big speaker magnets. I feel a placebo like relief the next morning after putting one under my back for a couple hours.

 

[Logic11]

Cool read, I have lots of big speaker magnets. I feel a placebo like relief the next morning after putting one under my back for a couple hours.

Well there's no doubt that magnetic fields have a great influence on certain chemical reactions so...

I used to be extremely active on Longecity.org so:
You might try making jelly (Gelatine, not vegetable halal crap) with Vitamin C in it.
NB: Vit C is the 'secret ingredient' your body needs to make Cartilage from Gelatin.
This is what collagen supplements do to your knee cartilage

And try time it for this HGH effect as well:
Reach your growth hormone peak two hours after eating gelatine pudding
ie: You naturally have a HGH spike 2 hours into sleep IIRC and after exercise...

Nothing to lose... Works for my Mom's arthritis.

(Look up joins and collagen in categories on that site for other stuff if you like)

 

[Stealth_Chopper]

Yes Marvin there is a dearth of Physics knowledge demonstrated here most especially Electrical as displayed by the bouncing ions and dancing electron story and simplistic '3 Laws of Nature' told to junior high kids.

Gauss' Law and the Flux Field application to charging on a cell level may provide some benefit.

 

[Logic11]

Yes Marvin there is a dearth of Physics knowledge demonstrated here most especially Electrical as displayed by the bouncing ions and dancing electron story and simplistic '3 Laws of Nature' told to junior high kids.

Gauss' Law and the Flux Field application to charging on a cell level may provide some benefit.

Ah..!
NB the heading that starts and ends with: "??! ...!?["
I'm here to learn and all ears, so please do correct me.

Perhaps try your hand at a simple (like me) but more correct explanation of the movement of ions in a battery and why that movement isn't 100% efficient.

While you're at it, my 'little parables'
here
here
here
here
here
and especially here
could all do with some input and correction by your august mind and great depth of knowledge in all matters pertaining to physics and so on.

When you're done there; your insights into why we age and how to slow, stop and in some cases even reverse the process would be much appreciated.