new eZip motor

[Sunder]

36V * 5A = 180W

NO way a 750W battery can charge in 10 minutes with only a 180W charger. The charger is only 5 amps. Should be at least 10 amp and thought you could charge these faster than could discharge ?

Going to work every day was never a problem for me. It was the disrespect i had to endure daily for 10 years as a dishwasher and working all those minimum wage labor jobs. I am the type of person who would or could have prospered if I had my own business. I like thinking for myself and employers frown on that. If I could get freelance work or build something I could sell on e bay it would be awesome even if it were to only generate a profit of a few hundred a week or even a month to supplement my current income. Any ideas ?????????

Yes, you are right. In order to charge in 10 minutes, you need a 6C capable charger (60 minutes /10 minutes = 6x Capacity of battery) at 15Ah, you need a 6 x 15A, or 90A charger - A second hand telco power supply will provide that, but only at 48v, and you will need a special plug if not a whole circuit to provide that much power (household plugs generally can't supply that much. In Australia, standard powerpoints can give 2400w (240v @ 10A), extended power points can do 3600w. and although it's legal to get bigger supplies installed directly to car chargers and air conditioners, any removeable device needing more than that needs to be on 3 phase.

I have a meeting in 10, so this next bit will be very quick. Apologies if it offends as I will walk a pretty fine line. Basically, in minimum wage jobs, you're paid to NOT think. Flip burgers, sweep streets, wash dishes. Jobs where you can just follow instructions. In higher paid jobs, you are paid because you have proven you can think well. An engineer must solve problems - but they can't afford to "trial and error" things. You can't see if a $100M bridge is going to withstand the weight of a truck or windforce, and say you prefer to do it that way. You must be able to think creatively, but apply methodically using discipline.

Likewise, if you decided to make all "home made" chain drive bikes, because the tried and true hub or mid-drive systems weren't to your liking, nobody would hire you. The impact on return rates, warranty and customer satisfaction would send your boss broke. If you were to sell them yourself, you could only target a very niche market, and would still have the same issues.

If you were ever going to break into making and selling eBike parts, now would be the time. In both America and Australia, bike shops are run off their feet with 2week to 2 month wait times. Why? Nobody is willing to get on public transport, and driving a car in many city centres is very expensive, so everyone wants to ride. Either an eBike or a push bike.

Unfortunately, you need a fair bit of capital, and if you are making anything new, then you need a fair bit of capital to prototype and test as well. Sorry, gotta run, will chat later if you're seriously looking at this.

 

[latecurtis]

Yes, you are right. In order to charge in 10 minutes, you need a 6C capable charger (60 minutes /10 minutes = 6x Capacity of battery) at 15Ah, you need a 6 x 15A, or 90A charger

Well I see a compromise somewhere there. Even though LTO batteries are almost indestructible they are rated at 3 amps nominal and 10 amps maximum.

I guess I could live with 10 amps but would prefer 20 to 30. If I am out there traveling any long distance I will want to take a break now and then anyway however a two hour break would be too much and a 10 minute break maybe not enough so looking between 1/2 hour to 1 hour to travel say 20 miles @ 10 to 20 mph.

750W = 20 mph so if I could charge at 1,000W it should take about 45 minutes to go 20 miles at about 18 mph right ?

Likewise, if you decided to make all "home made" chain drive bikes, because the tried and true hub or mid-drive systems weren't to your liking, nobody would hire you.

Well I am not sure if I agree that chain drive e bikes are unreliable. The original Currie which was my first bike was chain driven and ran it for years without any major issues. I admit that most of my chain drive builds had plenty of room for improvement but that was my goal to perfect a perfect chain drive e bike and I am sure that with time I will come up with something that will be as reliable as any hub motor.

All gas powered motorcycles are chain drive and some of them go over 200 mph. The fact is Liveforphysics deathbike uses an FX motor which is NOT chain drive or a hub motor. It is belt driven like the one he sent me. Belt drive is better than chain or hub.

I look forwards to building all three Hub , chain and belt for the FX 75-5 motor. The only type of motor I may never try is friction drive but I have seen some good ones with the small and powerful RC motors early on on this post so I wont completely rule it out but is the most un likely e bike project for me any time soon. Also I did not completely give up on a push trailer. What makes that special is the motor need not be geared for the bike wheel but a small trailer wheel making the high rpm efficient electric motors a good option as need not buy a 100+ tooth sprocket to run it. Thanks.

LC. out.

 

[john61ct]

EV owners are 99.999% only going to buy OEM replacement packs.

I think the trend will increasingly be scrap the car when the battery wears out.

Tesla Supplier CATL Boasts New Battery Can Power Cars for 1.24 Million Miles

https://www.caixinglobal.com/2020-06-10/tesla-supplier-catl-boasts-new-battery-can-power-cars-for-124-million-miles-101565528.html

 

[latecurtis]

As the Hub Motor Turns and the LiPo Fire Burns.

think the trend will increasingly be scrap the car when the battery wears out.

WOW :

A new Telsa goes for about 50.000 right. I cant imagine scrapping it because the battery is dead.


Anyway back to those LTOs


https://www.ebay.com/itm/500W-Boost-board-power-supply-voltage-regulator-circuit-module-DC-12v-to-24v-48V/272409544479?hash=item3f6cdfc71f:g:m7QAAOSwYIxX~QFr



https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000222091642.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.300d74e8WKtpmQ&algo_pvid=eedf5085-585d-41fb-a5fa-2f9e0c06adb8&algo_expid=eedf5085-585d-41fb-a5fa-2f9e0c06adb8-11&btsid=0ab6f81615919243265897048e16ac&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_

 

[john61ct]

> 750W = 20 mph

Again, Watts just do not work that way, that "equation " literally conveys no meaning, other than that you still have not figured out how these units work,

unless I am completely misunderstanding your thought process?

Watts and Amps are **instantaneous** power and current as in "how much is flowing at this instant."

Wh, and even better **Ah** once you state a voltage, are your "static measures" of energy, including usage over time and battery capacity.

> so if I could charge at 1,000W it should take about 45 minutes to go 20 miles at about 18 mph right ?

Sorry, I have no idea what you mean here. 1000W charging for 45min? at what voltage?

So **maybe** you are trying to say, "750Wh will get my bike 20 miles at 18mph"? Have I got that right?

Are you asking us to verify your bike's energy consumption?

Best to state your nominal voltage once, the use amps and Ah for consistency, both charging and discharging, capacities, SoC, usage per mile or per unit of time, etc

Well I see a compromise somewhere there. Even though LTO batteries are almost indestructible they are rated at 3 amps nominal and 10 amps maximum.

There are dozens of different LTO battery type and sizes, each with their own different ratings.

If you are going to try to generalize, use C-rate not amps, give a link to the cells you are referring to, or at least their size in Ah or mAh.

And also missing there, is do you mean charging rate, or discharge, peak or constant?

> I guess I could live with 10 amps but would prefer 20 to 30

You can get whatever you want in Amps, simply by using a higher capacity bank.

> If I am out there traveling any long distance I will want to take a break now and then anyway however a two hour break would be too much and a 10 minute break maybe not enough so looking between 1/2 hour to 1 hour to travel say 20 miles @ 10 to 20 mph

You are assuming people will let you plug into their power outlets? And that you can pull megawatts from them without blowing fuses?

That is a much more critical issue than how long a break is most convenient for you.

 

[john61ct]

A new Telsa goes for about 50.000 right. I cant imagine scrapping it because the battery is dead

At over a million miles, with a worn out battery, I bet the vehicle will be worth very little.

Especially since they will also be increasing their measures for ensuring that only authorized shops can work on them.

Leasing is how most will use them, or paying by the mile, or short-term rental via "sharing economy".

And not the owner driving either. . .

 

[john61ct]

Anyway back to those LTOs
https://www.ebay.com/itm/500W-Boost-board-power-supply-voltage-regulator-circuit-module-DC-12v-to-24v-48V/272409544479

That is not a charger, you still need a PSU / rectifier to get from shore power to DC to feed it.

And nothing to do with LTO specifically works just as well/badly for any chemistry.

That cheap-Chinese class of electronics will also not perform according to the advertised specs, or at least not for long without a bunch of DIY modding.

Do not expect your charging system to cost a small fraction of what a decent pack will

especially if you want go be able to refill it in less than an hour.

Of course if you find the deal of a lifetime on a good battery pack, maybe you get lucky on the AC power source.

The Mean Well HLG I mentioned earlier are still in the cheap Chinese domain, but at least are **proven** by many members here, to be much better, as in robust, less likely to fail, safer and they do perform (at least pretty close) to their published specs.

And you can safely put a bunch in parallel to get up to actually putting out 1000W if that is your target.

Still not a charger though, with both DC-DC converters and power supplies,

you need to find a way to ensure it stops outputting, well before the pack gets overcharged.

 

[latecurtis]

Yes that makes sense. I was thinking about current time. 50,000 miles.

Was not thinking about a million miles or more for the new models coming out.

Anyway I can live with 500W as a limit for running LTOs. It will get me around 20 mph and can use 6 cylindrical LTO 40 Ah cells.

It will be under 300 bucks. However will need a 12V BMS and charger capable of at least 50 amps. 80 would be ideal as 1,000/12 = 83.3

That way I could ride/discharge for one hour @ 20mph and recharge for 30 minutes and go another 20 miles.

Probably unlikely I could get a 12V 80 amp charger cheap unless it was a car charger. Would a 12V car charger even work for LTO ???

I will look at 12V BMS. It would be the same as a 12V LIFEPO4 BMS ? It would need to be 40A right ? 500/12 = 41.6 amps. 50 amp then ?

Please let me know. Thanks.

LC. out.

https://www.ebay.com/i/264757285625?chn=ps&var=564581858011&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&itemid=564581858011_264757285625&targetid=883584567266&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9015543&campaignid=6469750552&mkgroupid=92738162767&rlsatarget=pla-883584567266&abcId=1141176&merchantid=114157019&gclid=Cj0KCQjwrIf3BRD1ARIsAMuugNvcsODIe37r894o4PQLKzPHaJdwTw4jbJYATZgAj1uhq7NdG2bIrxkaApOTEALw_wcB



If I could get 8 LTO cells I could build two packs 4S each.

40 / 3 = 13.3 Ah each. 40Ah @ 12V / 3 = 13.3 Ah @ 36V.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000052004983.html


Is LIFEPO4 the same as LTO ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

I know that with that booster I could run any 12V battery auto or motorcycle if I wanted to. weight would be the only limitation.

Please let me know.

LC. out,

 

[latecurtis]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1500W-30A-DC-DC-Boost-Converter-10-60V-to-12-90V-Step-Up-Power-Supply-Module/222176450625?_trkparms=aid%3D888008%26algo%3DDISC.CARDS%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D225074%26meid%3D4e8e8dcbf2244ccdb1259447358cdf59%26pid%3D100009%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D2%26mehot%3Dpp%26sd%3D272409544479%26itm%3D222176450625%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2047675%26algv%3DDiscV1%26brand%3DUnbranded&_trksid=p2047675.c100009.m1982




There seems to be a ton of boosters out there dirt cheap. I don't need a fire though while going 20 mph.
I will need quality. Not sure which way to go with this/ :lol:




https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/GTK-6S-14-4v-40Ah-Lithium_62413819267.html?spm=a2700.details.maylikeexp.3.37763f79IOb5y1



https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/LTO-66160-2-4v-40Ah-Lithium_62099496251.html?spm=a2700.details.deiletai6.8.5df03c7ftNNqoq


The cylindrical that are threaded for nuts look the best. to start 4 of those with a 4S BMS and a 4S charger with at least 50 amps and a quality DC booster to go from 12 to 36 volts should do the trick but that 12V LTO has built in BMS and may be able to use a car charger ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????/// {lease let me know.


Thanks.

LC. out.

 

[john61ct]

6 cells of LTO, from above, means what voltages - nominal, lowest and charging termination point?

You need a 6S BMS designed for LTO specifically, or a fully adjustable one that includes those setpoints within its range.

Nothing to do with 12V, why are you talking about 12V?

And no, LFP is completely different chemistry, has its own voltages, 3.2, 2.8-3.0 and 3.45-3.60 respectively.

And you keep posting cheap-Chinese DC-DC converters, what do you think you are going to use those for?

During charging bad enough, but I hope you're not seriously thinking of putting them into your drivetrain?

Really, you are just all over the place, have no idea where your thinking is going here.

Step one, choose your frame, motor and controller.

Step two, choose your battery chemistry and voltage to suit step one, no DC conversion in the mix.

Then step three shop for your cells and BMS, or a built pack, and finally a charger.

Stop making "cheap price" your top priority, or you will just be throwing money away on crap that will not work, or at least not for long.

You might need to spend more than you want to up front, delay / earn / save, then be spending less per year on your overall transportation costs.

Snag bargains that come up **that fit your plan**, do not plan based on random cheap stuff you come across

 

[latecurtis]

All me e bikes which I have 6 in total (five in NY) and one here I run like weekly need batteries. All the batteries I own are old. I have one new 4P - 36V lithium ion on the way.

And you keep posting cheap-Chinese DC-DC converters, what do you think you are going to use those for?

During charging bad enough, but I hope you're not seriously thinking of putting them into your drivetrain?

Yep. Exactly what I was thinking.

Yes I want to convert from 12 volts to 36 volts. All my bikes will run 36 volts however I might want to have the option of running 48 volts is I wanted to and maybe even 60 volts or 72 volts.

It would be great if I could simply dial in the voltage that I want. I know that in the past there was a guy on this post that used a step up voltage converter.





No it was probably not a cheap one. I posted those just to see if they would work. I will be very disappointed if I can not run one. I would settle for 12V to 36V DC. The other voltages are not that important but 36V from 12V is a must.

The reason is not just the cost of ordering enough LTOs to get 36V vs 12V. It is also the fact that I love to build all kinds of e bikes and look forwards to someday building a push trailer. It is a cargo trailer with a motor and small wheel that can push the bike forwards. It would be ideal to run cheap SLAs or even a car battery for that set up. It would not be used for high speed or long distance e biking.

But yes the main reason is I can buy four - 40 Ah LTOs and use a converter for 36 volts. I can charge 4S and run at 36 volts. That is exactly what I want so the question is what is the best choice for the money for a DC booster to do the trick ?

https://www.ebay.com/i/202769566557?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&itemid=202769566557&targetid=884131384999&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9015543&poi=&campaignid=9421872431&mkgroupid=95112701945&rlsatarget=pla-884131384999&abcId=1140476&merchantid=108723228&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIrPPinrj96QIVi-DICh01twxAEAQYAiABEgJksfD_BwE





I have no problem using two separate controllers but could probably just as easily unhook the booster from the controller when using any of my 36 volt Lithium ion packs so could use the booster exclusively with the LTOs.

Thanks.

LC out.

 

[john61ct]

There are many many reasons why a DC-DC converter should not be added to your drive train.

Wasting a lot of your battery pack power is the main one, especially buck converting (down).

Vastly decreasing reliability is another.

Have you ever heard of any well-respected member here doing that?

Plenty more reasons but I'm tired.

Walk before you run.

Get the voltage pack you need for a particular bike / motor / controller. If you want to repurpose for other bikes, standardize them on one voltage that works in common.

For charging, maybe, mains power is cheap, if you get cheap-Chinese, keep to **well** under the rating, watch your temps and buy plenty of spares.

 

[latecurtis]

Have you ever heard of any well-respected member here doing that?

12 - LTO cells would set me back 600 bucks to get 36V making LTO not possible for me.

4 - LTO cells will be 200 bucks.

I posted the member. Wturber and he is well respected.

However he only went from 48 to 54V and 1,000 watts.

I am looking to go from 12V - 45 amps to 36V and 540 watts.

Four cylindrical 40 Ah cells. a 4S - BMS and a 50 - 80 amp charger + a booster for about 350 bucks is what I am looking at.

As far as charging I have two LiPo chargers in storage. A 200 watt Skycharger and a 400 watt Megacharger. There are many different settings and can charge LIFEPO4 so could they charge LTOs ?

For temporary is there a single cell charger I could use or a parallel charger so could charge at home separate or in parallel and run in series as if only running 4S with a booster it would be easy to take apart to charge and only 4 cells to hook up in series.

Basically am looking at least expensive way to run LTOs for 36 volts.

Thanks.

LC. out.

 

[john61ct]

Those particular LTO, not LTO in general.

I stand by my previous statements.

As far as charging I have two LiPo chargers in storage. A 200 watt Skycharger and a 400 watt Megacharger. There are many different settings and can charge LIFEPO4 so could they charge LTOs ?

As stated you have been given all the per-cell voltage info for LTO already above.

I just asked you to figure it out as a learning exercise, you need to be able to do this stuff!

And not 4S, that is useless, do it for a 36V pack, the only place for the DC boost converter is (maybe) in charging.

There are places to cheap out, but not on your pack

you just need to delay / earn / save,

a decent pack no matter what chemistry is going to most likely cost at least that much

if you can't afford it, walk hitch or take the bus in the meantime; meantime look for bargains, you just may get lucky!

 

[latecurtis]

john61ct . I get what you are saying that you don't recommend it and that's cool but I know a member on here that did. If it worked for him than why not me.

I just need to know which one he had and , or which ones are better than others.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1xildSl4Hk

LTO batteries are defiantly not small.

5 of them for 12 volts will take a lot of room to mount or put in a basket. There is absolutely no way possible for me to mount 15 of those for 36 volts according to that video.

If it is impossible for me to use a voltage booster than I can forget about lithium Titanite.

If it worked for Wturber than why not me ?
Sunder are you there ??????

DA ?

Dan ?

Wturber ?

If he were here I would ask him what make and model he got.

Please let me know about a voltage booster when you read this. Also about LTO cell mounting / carrying options.

Thanks.

LC. out.

 

[DAND214]

LC, if it was that easy, most would be doing it to get above the 48v.
A booster from 36 to 48 might be easier that trying to triple the voltage. Yes I did see the post on it and see his posts a lot but don't want another thing to blow up on me. Stay with the regular 36v system and live with it. The amount of AMPS you appear to use is excessive and more than a booster can handle. At least in a reasonable price.

If you can't get more than 1m/ah at less than 20mph, either you are over geared, lot of drag on the bike or using way too low of AH per pack. I can get 2.5m/ah and the bike is almost 90lb and 175 for me. If I run just the 16ah pack than the other it gets less m/ah. Using each pack and changing to nest pack is a waste of battery. Oh I do pedal some, like all the time but never over power the motor with my weak legs.

Dan

 

[john61ct]

I get what you are saying that you don't recommend it and that's cool but I know a member on here that did. If it worked for him than why not me.

You likely are not so clear on what the "it" was that he did. In any case just because it **can** be done, does not mean **you** should do it.

I mean if you had lots of money to throw around on science experiments to prove for yourself all the things that don't work

rather than seeking advice from the forum

just deciding random stuff **you think** is the way to go will waste a lot of time and use up your money

which you keep saying you can't afford.

Unlike a wealthy person, you need to try to get it right the first time

but your excessive Dunning — Kruger character / personality flaw leads you to wrong paths, and you just won't listen.


> LTO batteries are defiantly not small.

> 5 of them for 12 volts will take a lot of room to mount or put in a basket. There is absolutely no way possible for me to mount 15 of those for 36 volts according to that video.

Yes, of **those** cells. Using **fewer** cells is not a solution to that problem.

You need the **voltage pack** that you need. You need **smaller** cells, not a lower voltage pack.

This is a perfect example of your thick headed Dunning — Kruger stubbornness. Dozens of people have told you, it is usually stupid to consider using LTO for exactly that reason

the energy density is too low!

> If it is impossible for me to use a voltage booster than I can forget about lithium Titanite.

Yes I think that would be wise.

 

[john61ct]

Using each pack and changing to next pack is a waste of battery.

Yes this is another key point OP you are just refusing to listen about,

do **not** do this, very inefficient, throwing away precious energy.

You can have multiple same-voltage packs for flexibility, build up the Ah capacity for longer trips if needed

but design them to be sub-packs in parallel, made up of matching cells, ideally all new, or at least the same wear level to start with

and start the trip out **with all of them connected** together.

> using way too low of AH per pack

And another! How many times have you been told this?

Most are just shrugging and giving up on you, TBH dunno why I'm trying myself to still help you, it is exhausting!


If you "can't afford" the right pack(s) yet,

it means you just **can't afford** a good working ebike **yet**

wait.

save.

earn.

keep shopping for maybe a great deal, but only **on the right gear**

the answer is **not** to choose something else, or try some whacky workaround throwing money away

 

[john61ct]

If you actually read the @Wturber post you screenshot

He makes it clear he is not recommending his DC boost technique for others.

He is not striving to get good energy efficiency.

He knows he is doing something most knowledgeable people would not bother with.

He is not living hand to mouth trying to get practical daily transportation from minimum investment.

As a science experiment, maybe it was successful **for him** in his situation - which was well over two years ago.

My perception is, that you do not have that luxury to experiment, be "unconventional", you need to stick to a normal proven mainstream solution.

 

[latecurtis]

My perception is, that you do not have that luxury to experiment, be "unconventional", you need to stick to a normal proven mainstream solution.

just the opposite.

First of all this is a very large post and started it a long time ago.

Aug 06 2014 6:47pm

going on 6 years now and basically about every page consists of some type of experiment or another.

I have a 10 by 10 storage with about 6 e bike experiments. I built a front wheel chain drive e bike as well as a dual chain drive both wheels chain driven. I have mounted a chain drive motor to front and back wheels with wood and even a 2 by 4.

It is the main purpose in my life to experiment. I live for it. I do own three hub motors and prefer a hub motor for the front and chain drive for the rear which most of my e bikes will get as have four chain drive motors in storage and one I took off a bike. I have 3 hub motors in storage. A 1,000 watt direct drive - 26" and a 500 watt e bikeling motor on the front of a 700c Giant cypress hybrid. and a 20' 800 watt hub motor. The 700c works perfect but the other two need the rim straightened by a professional. I have about 15 bike frames including a Haro V3 and Giant roam and dimond backs vintage and a few years old.

I had LiPos Dan sent that are on their way out . Two LiPo chargers I mentioned and stoped using SLAs a long time ago but may in a special case use them again on a push trailer I have always wanted to build. I may even use an old car battery just for the hell of it. Like a used one 15 or 20 bucks.

I live to experiment and build stuff. I still want to install a motor on a shopping cart. lol. So please humor me. My question is not SHOULD I use a booster , It is WILL a booster work and with any controller or special controller / controllers.


Thanks.

LC. out.

 

[john61ct]

Well sure if you do not need practical results, feel free to do your science experiments, measure everything accurately and report back here!

Those cheap Chinese boost converters will go maybe 5-10A without active ventilation and big heat sinks. Even then might not last more than a couple trips if the road is not perfectly smooth.

From 12V up to 36V will waste at least a third of your stored energy, maybe half or more.

More robust and efficient boost converters will cost hundreds of dollars, and be pretty large and heavy

unless you know exactly what to look for and wait, maybe they come up used on eBay.

Buck converting, going from high to low is much more efficient.

 

[latecurtis]

Those cheap Chinese boost converters will go maybe 5-10A without active ventilation and big heat sinks. Even then might not last more than a couple trips if the road is not perfectly smooth.

Ok now that makes sense. Even though I do like experimenting I do not like throwing money away. I do hit a lot of bumps in the road and if it breaks I would be stranded out there. Another deal breaker.

The big deal breaker with LTOs is not just the cost but also the cell size or energy density. They are too big for a conventional e bike.

I would however be interested in ordering LTO in the future for my 1,000W unite motor in storage not currently hooked to an e bike. possibly the 1,000W hub motor also with a 500 watt brushless controller. If a 750 or 800W brushless 24V controller were possible it would also work for an 1,800W or 3,000W brushless motor.

For example if I were to run a 1,000W - 3,000 rpm Unite motor at 48V I would be needing a 70 tooth sprocket to get decent gearing up a hill. With 24V and 500W a 35 to 40 tooth sprocket would do the trick. It would not go fast but would be geared properly and take hills with less strain on motor , controller and batteries.

A 3,000W brushless motor would only be limited by the wattage of a 24V controller. Note that I on several occasions hooked up more than one controller to an e bike And used different packs. At 3,000 rpm and 1,000W I went 29 mph with a 60 tooth wheel sprocket and 11 tooth motor sprocket with LiPo batteries. Now imagine a 10 or 20 mile road trip with mostly flat road and a decent 48V Lithium ion pack and traveling about 26 to 28 mph and I run into a big steep hill and start slowing down. I notice the motor straining. What to do now.

I could stop the bike. Hit the kill switch and unhook the 48V pack and hook up 24V of LTOs and what would my gearing be ?



Now obviously 24V of LTOs would take up 50% less space than 36V of LTOs is quick to charge so would also be ideal in any town or city where 15 mph top speed would be safer than 28 mph also. Basically I could run LTOs exclusively in town and up hills and save my 36V or 48V Lithium ion packs for highway cruising where it is flat or down hills and hills NOT very steep and switch over for the big hills.

I just happen to have a 60 tooth spoke sprocket in storage and a 800W 36V brush motor as well as the 1,000 48V motor. I have run the 800W motor at 24V and 533W with a 56 tooth wheel sprocket. gearing was.



21 mph is about right for 533W on the flat but maybe not up a steep hill but if you also add a 800W 20" hub motor on the front hooked to a 36V lithium ion pack then we got an awesome hill climber.

That bike however has a 500W 24V unite motor on the back with a 80 tooth wheel and 11 tooth motor sprocket. It is an experiment in my storage in NY.

However about a month or less before I moved here I hooked up dual 36V controllers to it and had a friend take it for a ride. He said it was keeping up with cars and was scary. :lol: I could easily hook both 24V controllers to 24V of LTO and 20 mph gearing for around town and has a large cargo basket on the back. I hauled a 50 pound box of meat about a mile and a half home on one of my videos. It maintains 18 to 20 mph on flat and don't slow down much at all on most small hills. It climbed one of the steepest hills in Schenectady on a video with a speedo many pages ago on this post.

Most of my e bikes in the future will be getting two motors and controllers. I plan on three actually. The bike with the 800W motor on the front and 500 watt motor on the back was built with left over parts years ago. I ran it at 24V with LiPo packs Dan sent before trying 36V. I went up a very steep hill and shot a video of it.



Now if I were to use LTOs I would have a much more stable , rugged battery chemistry which is great for high discharge. Perfect for climbing hills exclusively.

Thanks. for posting.

LC. out.

 

[Sunder]

It is the main purpose in my life to experiment. I live for it. I live to experiment and build stuff. I still want to install a motor on a shopping cart. lol. So please humor me. My question is not SHOULD I use a booster , It is WILL a booster work and with any controller or special controller / controllers.

Well the blunt answer to that, of course, is yes, it will. Whether it get you the results you want is another matter entirely of course. If you wanted to go cruise on a flat about 25mph, you would need 1000w, depending of course on your seated position, Any paniers and bags, efficiency of your chain drive, tyres, etc.

Now those "1500W" converters are actually not only optimistically rated, they are rated assuming your input voltage is the same as the output voltage, at the highest it can handle. If you read the fine print - which you often don't get until you get the manual that comes with them, that usually means 30A on the input side, with a 50v caps. So you can't get 1500W out of them. You can only put 1500W into them. To do that, Put 50V, 30A in, get 50v, ~ 25A out, and it lasts a little under 10 minutes.

Ask me how I know - It's almost like I've killed a few of those, and the only thing worth saving is the heatsink under them... This look familiar?



So, let's redo the maths. At 12v 30A in, you will have 360W in. At an optimistic 85% efficiency (That's actually unrealistically optimistic) you'll get 306W out to your controller. So you'd need about 4 of those to get you to your 1000W target. Unfortunately, those don't stack. They struggle to regulate current when there's two or more of them in parallel, and one of them burns out within a few seconds. Again... Let me show you my stack of worthless heat sinks.

On the other hand they aren't a total waste. I have one left standing. It makes a fantastic USB to eBike battery step up transformer. This one charges my eBike in 4 hours from any USB-PD (USB Power Delivery) enabled charger, or 8 hours from a USB QC3.0 (USB Quick Charge) enabled charger. Great for my commute to work, as my laptop also charges from USB-PD, so I can carry one charger for both:


You like to experiment? Great... This is one I've always wanted to try, but never had the guts. Hobby Rockets:

Strap a bunch of those at the back of a bike, and ignite them on a long straight stretch and see how fast it takes you. It's basically the bike version of the car with JATO rocket:

You up? I'll pay for the rockets and do the maths.

 

[Sunder]

The big deal breaker with LTOs is not just the cost but also the cell size or energy density. They are too big for a conventional e bike.

Autowhattie?

This baby gets me 18km at >40km/h with only minimal pedaling:



That's a 48v, 4Ah pack. That ruler is in cm, not inches. If you don't have a comparable ruler to get a feel for that, it sits in the palm of my hand, without the edges going over my wrist or fingertips.

And that's on n a hybrid, not a track bike or velomobile.

Before I put on the aero wheels.

And I'm no Lance Armstrong (except that I dope with electrons, not drugs).

You know why? Because I pick the right parts for the job. I'm driving it using the right sized geared hub motor, driven using a field oriented controller. That's efficiency for you.

Now obviously 24V of LTOs would take up 50% less space than 36V of LTOs is quick to charge so would also be ideal in any town or city where 15 mph top speed would be safer than 28 mph also. Basically I could run LTOs exclusively in town and up hills and save my 36V or 48V Lithium ion packs for highway cruising where it is flat or down hills and hills NOT very steep and switch over for the big hills.

You might want to do the maths on that one again... 50% of 36v = ... 24v? Or 18v?

A 36v battery is 50% bigger than a 24v battery, but a 24v battery is 33% smaller than a 36v battery. Maths!

 

[latecurtis]

As the hub motor turns and the LiPo Fire Burns.


I wont be wasting my money on voltage boosters.

I will be looking at building a 24V - LTO pack for a 500W daily commuter.

It wont work for my current e bike though as the e bikeling 500W motor would be worthless if I cut the voltage down to 24 from 36 and doubt it would even turn on.

Therefore I will probably wait on the LTOs until I get my storage. The one 20" dual motor cargo bike will get the two 24V controllers back and can hook to 24V of LTO.

The other 20" cargo bike has a 800W 36V hub motor on the front and needs the rim straightened. The 48V unite motor which is 1,000W@48V and 3,000 rpm will go on the back with a 24V controller and hook to the LTOs also.

And last but not least is the Currie ezip trailz. It is in storage and has a 750W geared chain drive motor. motor speed is 480 rpm at 750W and 36V. I have two or three of those variable speed controllers which will run anything from 24V to 48V. It has a pot. built in and a knob on the front for speed control. That would work very well with 24v of LTO also.

Basically around town like Wall-Mart trips or grocery store is ideal as access to outside outlets anywhere and if this virus shit ever goes away inside restaurants. As long as the LTOs could fit in a back pack I should have no issues charging at McDonald's or Wendy's or a library. Obviously the LTOs need to be out of site so homeland security or the bomb squad don't show up as 9,999 out of 10,000 people would have absolutely no idea what the hell they are.

Anyway I will need to wait on the LTOs until I have bikes that can run them. For now I will be ordering mote lithium ion packs.
I do look forwards though to having 20,000 or more charging cycles for around town and short trips. It will be fun hooking up a BMS and will need a fast 24V LTO charger. I hope I can get one for less than 100 bucks that can at least charge at 1,000W or close to it. 24V * 40 amps = 960W. Run = 500W and charge = 960W. I bet a 24V - 40 amp charger is easier to find then a 12V - 80 amp charger. If you know of any please send me a link. Thanks.

LC. out.