Pikes Peak Race--Entering?

Josh,

I love the idea. And I think bikes like yours should be road legal. But to be road legal, at this point, they need to be electronically limited to 20 mph, like the old Stokemonkey. That doesn't make them as appealing to me. Hell, my 350 continuous, 500 watt peak, mid-drive bike is not legal. On my hilly terrain, it means I would need a bigger motor, and controller to maintain my current average speed. I would be running all but the very steepest uphill grades at 20 mph, and have no assist on even slight downhill grades. It would be very interesting to know if my average Wh/mile would be different.

Warren
 
neptronix said:
Arlo1 said:
EVERYTHING is you have to PAY pay pay pay PAY. I want Fun for free. Thats what ebikes are FUN FOR FREE! If they are 15000-30000 watts like mine are now or faster with more weight then I want at 85lbs with hub motors and ~70lbs with RC. Then its fun. I keep to my self but If I have a car trying stuppid shit I have the power to leave them behind.

FUN FOR FREE!
Click to expand...

Yeah, that's what i like best about electric bicycles as well. They are the free-est thing, ever. I want to hang out in the legally murky territory as long as possible. Everyone wants to make rules, add taxes, tell you what you can and cannot do, regardless of whether you are hurting anyone or not. No principles to it, they just like it that way because they're on a power trip.

Why does this community need a goal? we are not an organization / legal entity. There are not teams. Stop thinking in absolutes. This is about having fun on two wheels. Build what you like and run it. Don't go around making rules so that everyone has to do what you do. That's just lame.
Click to expand...


Doing things for fun is great. But its not much of a competition if someone with a motorcycle chassis and a 50kw drivetrain shows up. But I guess that's the only way to really do it if you don't want restrictions. Race anything electric? Or maybe you have what it takes to take on gas street bikes...
 
Warren,

Well, the E bikes for the general masses, like hub motor equipment, should be legally restricted to 20 miles an hour.

But, that is on Motor alone, and here is the opportunity. The law states that the E bike may only go up to 20 miles an hour on Motor alone.

It doesn't say anything about being pedaled up over 20 mph. So, In my book, if you have a system that can push a rider that is 200 lbs, 20 mph,
along the flats, that's legal. And if you have the rider pedal it up, they can ride above 20 mph, with strong rider input, up to about 27mph.
This is a gray area, but we want to stay under 30 for sure, because that is where we cross over and into the moped law area, which is 1.5 hp,
and 30 miles an hour.
So, we run a 750 watt motor, through the gears, and use assist up and into the 25 mph area, with pedal power included. This is where the
industry has some opportunity to develop more and more efficient machines, and encourage riders to be stronger, to go faster.

It's the through the gears developments that are going to take this technology forward fast. Look at the Boche drive with Cannonade, Sram is
jumping into the game, and many new pedal pullers, bottom bracket drives, Mid drives and more. It's a big deal.

I envision teams of riders, on through the gears bikes that are going to change to game. We need some regulations to allow the sport to bloom.

Peace, Josh K.

Josh,

I love the idea. And I think bikes like yours should be road legal. But to be road legal, at this point, they need to be electronically limited to 20 mph, like the old Stokemonkey. That doesn't make them as appealing to me. Hell, my 350 continuous, 500 watt peak, mid-drive bike is not legal. On my hilly terrain, it means I would need a bigger motor, and controller to maintain my current average speed. I would be running all but the very steepest uphill grades at 20 mph, and have no assist on even slight downhill grades. It would be very interesting to know if my average Wh/mile would be different.

Warren
 
This is slightly related. Saw this thread again and reminded me of some videos i saw recently. Being a big BMW fan (namely pre-2001 models), I got a kick out of this converted m3 that went up pikes peak. Omg I want this car so bad.. Too bad it's $200k. You can sometimes see the magnetic field of the main power wires in action...

[youtube]trgB4NgODe8[/youtube]

I like the street run better:

[youtube]tvnCgW5tSsc[/youtube]
 
"So, In my book, if you have a system that can push a rider that is 200 lbs, 20 mph,
along the flats, that's legal. And if you have the rider pedal it up, they can ride above 20 mph, with strong rider input, up to about 27mph."

You might get a judge to buy your interpretation of the law, but I don't believe that was the intent. Otherwise big manufacturers wouldn't have their assist cutting out at 20 mph.

"So, we run a 750 watt motor, through the gears, and use assist up and into the 25 mph area, with pedal power included."

Even on a MTB with off road tires, your 200 pound rider should be able to hit 20 mph on level ground, no wind, without pedaling, on 500 watts. With a nearly unnoticeable 2% down grade, and a 5 mph tailwind, he'll be at 30 mph. Try to explain these subtleties to a cop. And on a road bike or performance recumbent, with a 160 pound rider, 350 watts will do the same.

I believe the European bikes coming out, in the new speed pedelec class, cut out motor assist at 45 kph, which coincides nicely with your 27 mph limit. This eliminates the variables of grade, wind, rider weight, etc. I think this would make lawmakers more comfortable with this type of bike.

"We need some regulations to allow the sport to bloom."

I agree. If legal e-bikes are ever to appeal to fit riders, they need to assist well past 20 mph.
 
We need some regulations to allow the sport to bloom.
Click to expand...

Regulations always help things bloom! :lol:
 
Warren said:
Here in the US, we can pretty much get away under the radar as a small group of widely dispersed individuals. But regulations do exist for the big bike manufacturers, that most people depend upon.
Click to expand...

Hm, we do have some bicycle safety regulations here, but does that help the bicycle industry bloom? last time i checked, only a few percent of Americans commute to work. The rest of the bicycle industry caters to recreation only.
 
The Department Of Transportation, classified the E bike, as a bicycle, with light electric assist.

This is the opportunity. It was not made illegal. It was not shoved under the rug. It was classified, and that give us some perimeters
to work within. It allows Companies, and individuals to invest in something to create value for the community. And racing, gives
the public the opportunity to see, compare, and decide which system is right for them. The Rules, to stick to, for designers, engineers,
Marketeers, and E bike company employees, are to keep it aligned with the DOT Regulations, to keep it safe.

Otherwise, it will cross over into the higher powered classifications, like Moped, Low power scooter, and Motorcycle.
My understanding is that Mopeds are 1.5 hp, and 30 mph. Low power scooters are up to 5,000 watts, and 45 mph.
Motorcycles are off and into over 100 hp, and have no real restrictions for actual speed capability, other than the Road speed limits.

So, people need to understand the groups, the scales, of the vehicles, and decide what they would like to work with. Anybody can
slap some high end equipment together and go fast. But it takes a team of engineers to develop advanced light weight E bikes
to scale mountains, and to not over heat, melt down, thermal run away, or worse.

The opportunity, in my mind, is to capitalize on all these thousands of hours of development, thousands and thousands of dollars of
investment, and years of study, to be able to show the world, that these companies have amazing products, ready to ride. I see it
as an opportunity to show the world what we can do, to encourage the use of these E bikes, in everyday use. Look at the Action
coming from the Euro show. Wow, Lot's of great product. Now, for the X games of E bikes.

Peace, Josh K.
 
Pikes Peak is about the racing of machines, AND talented men. To enter the DOT requirement into the rules would make it a race of athletes on bicycles with electric assist, and the bike manufacturer with the budget to hire the strongest rider wins.
Imagine Indy being restricted to DOT only cars. It would be a parade. I wouldn't care to see Pikes Peak become an ebike parade, nor the best athlete wins.
Pikes Peak is still pretty much a "race what ya brung" and to to not lose a place, a minimum of rules and classes would be be the order of the day. Otherwise, you may squeeze yourselves out. Your rules have to accept cheating. It is too much work, and too hard to find the people to police it. When winning means money, you can't keep away the cheaters. Hand wound motors, hidden batteries, hacked controllers will happen. The manufacturers can still advertise they were the fastest production bikes, with all the spin their copy writers can create.
The regulations you desire would mean the three that finished ahead of you wouldn't be allowed to run?
 
neptronix said:
Sounds like they made up their mind. Doesn't surprise me, they were never interested in including us or working with us.

ATTENTION: THIS YEAR'S EVENT WILL BE FOR BICYCLES ONLY!
NO ELECTRIC ASSIST VEHICLES!!!!
Click to expand...

https://www.usacycling.org/register/2013-1395
Click to expand...

USA Cycling can kiss my lycra. Last year, 38 MILLION ebikes sold in China. They are missing out on the revolution.
Pike's Peak is a giant vitamin shot for ebike innovation. We MUST keep riding Pike's!
Why not run with http://www.levassociation.com/ or http://www.electricauto.org/ ?
 
I drove my SUV twice up the Pikes Peak last month. Both times I was limited to around 12000 feet. Too much snow and wind.
But it's one nice ride and I want to bring my ebike next year summer to ride it up.
 
My understanding is that, Bikes are allowed to ride pikes peak, at anytime now. Open to bikes...

So, someone could create an E bike event...

Ideas?

Josh K.

Don"t ask me, or make me do it, cause It will be 750 limit If I do...
 
Josh K. said:
My understanding is that, Bikes are allowed to ride pikes peak, at anytime now. Open to bikes...

So, someone could create an E bike event...

Ideas?

Josh K.

Don"t ask me, or make me do it, cause It will be 750 limit If I do...
Click to expand...

So, wait: can we all agree that to be inclusive, a Pike's event would need to accept entrants in classes, to provide everyone the most sporting opportunity? And any class where you've got only one participant would be a race against the clock? I'm trying to take just a teeny, tiny baby step here and see if we all agree on the need for classification of machines/riders. I'm not ready to define the classes just yet (although I have an idea).
 
How about just simple voltage limits.

Class One: 0-48V
Class Two: 48-72V
Class Three: 72-100V
Class Four: 100+V

Or just a simple Direct drive and a Chain/belt Drive class.
 
The only classes that work are watt limits. You can run huge amps on a low voltage setup.

I think it's just too early to try making separate classes. It's informal anyway.

Maybe a weight limit for the ebike?
 
Why not just give everyone a trophy, so no one is a loser and everyone's a winner? I thought that was pretty much how the US has gone anyway. :lol:
 
John in CR said:
Why not just give everyone a trophy, so no one is a loser and everyone's a winner? I thought that was pretty much how the US has gone anyway. :lol:
Click to expand...

ding ding ding, you are a winner! Pun intended :mrgreen:
 
You can't have an ebike competition if you can't define what an ebike is. I should have stated that first.
 
I think the only time they give trophies to everyone is for pageants and peewee soccer.

I just thought of something kind of funny. You guys should try to find a hill/route similar to Pike's Peak and start your own e-bike competition. The entry fee could be a good serviceable e-bike part and the winner gets the box of spare parts.
 
How about Rogers Peak at Inyo, CA ? 20 miles, 8.1% average gradient, 10% max. Elevation 8,670 ft. Rated most difficult climb in continental US.

http://www.climbbybike.com/climb.asp?col=Wildrose-Rogers-Peak&qryMountainID=13272
 
How about dragons tail in the smokey mnts , then some east coast guy's could get in on the fun.
 
e-biker said:
How about dragons tail in the smokey mnts , then some east coast guy's could get in on the fun.
Click to expand...

remf and e-biker, I like where you are going with this. Pike's is beautiful, but it's not the only mountain out there. Maybe the most important thing is to pick a mountain - somewhere, anywhere, and climb it with an ebike.

I like dragon's tail - the motorcyclists are already in on that secret.
I can reach that spot. I could get me a piece of that sweet hillclimb pie. Maybe we set up our own hillclimb and "run whatcha brung"!!!
Mt. Mitchell is always a good possibility too. FFR Trikes does all their testing and proof-of-concept work up on Mitchell.
I'd like to do that just to put the bike (and motor mods) to the test. No stopwatch, let's just get to the top first.
 
My vote would be for either
1) a nice long section of uphill tarmac that is already closed off to cars and easy pickins for crazed e-bikers
2) a smooth dirt road up the side of a mountain where it is minimally invasive to close off the road for a while: like this section of track in Jerome Az where the Rally racers race up the side of mingus mountain. Only maybe more hairpin turns.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qs33QNuBJDo#t=2m




Also weight classes are the only way to classify these things properly and can be done easily with simple bathroom scales.
 
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