What is 2022's best controller?

[mrcashback]

Im a good 10yrs into a build, thats mainly the result of me giving up every couple years thinking "ill see if i can get that controller working this time. So, now i want to ditch it and get something that actually wont give me any grief.

Must haves:
5000w Minimum capacity current motor is 5kw, but that could change in future
90A minimum, so i can run current motor at redline at 56v if i wanted to.
Voltage range 56-92v (wider range would be even better) current battery is 46v, but i would like to increase that

Features:
Bluetooth or wifi control on phone
Ability to have at least 2x preprogrammed settings that can be switched wirelessly between roadlegal and offroad, and optional input for key
Regen breaking

Would be nice: but not essential
5v/9v/12v outputs for usb/phone charging or other devices
Realtime phone monitoring of stats, speed,watts,volts,amps
Built in BMS and ballancer
Ability to recharge from other various DC sources of varied voltage
As compact as possible footprint to fit inside frame (if i can)
Water resistance


What options exist that others are happily using? Ive bought a number of aliexpress BMS's and ballancers for domestic battery usage and solar, and one of them failed and blew up a $30,000 battery pack letting it overcharge, the and the others all have various quirks that make them useful but anoying, like one drops bluetooth control when the pack is out of range so theres no easy way to easily turn it back on and reprogramm it when its in that state. Some dont have wiring guages heavy enough to support the amperages they claim etc etc, so, if you have one thats great "but" has quirks, please note the quirks!

Thanks so much!

 

[tomjasz]

eBikes.ca

 

[Enkidu]

eBikes.ca

https://ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bicycle-parts/controllers.html

 

[thundercamel]

I've never seen a controller combined with a BMS. I will say I only use smart BMS's to be able to monitor the cell group voltages myself.

 

[E-HP]

I've never seen a controller combined with a BMS. I will say I only use smart BMS's to be able to monitor the cell group voltages myself.

I think the Nucular controllers are the only ones I've seen where the controller appears manage the battery pack charging and balancing.
For the OP, it may have been better to just get feedback on the first two criteria, ignoring the rest, just so see what the overall population is. I don't think there are many choices. The Nucular 12F seems to meet most of the other requirements.

"Bluetooth or wifi control on phone
Ability to have at least 2x preprogrammed settings that can be switched wirelessly between roadlegal and offroad, and optional"

 

[calab]

Best is a generalized term and is meaningless without specifics of your goals, like Price, Noise=Waveform, Controller Physical Size, Amps range, Volts range, Programmable or not, do you want a screen, do you want pas, other features like 3spd or cruise control.

The Nucular can be put on the list to check out.

XiChang controller with the Infineon chip inside are a good starter, but if you wanted more power then Lyen beefed them up for sale, but are trap not sine, are programmable.

Have you checked out the diy controller where you need the power module, I was ambitious and bought the pcb. Lots of threads posted on that.

There is the Power Velocity controllers, Kelly, Sabvoton, BAC, then the PSW for low power Sine/FOC



I remember the inductor coil transformer and the server charger that they were selling way back when, which I think was the EMC 400
http://adaptto.com/Products/
http://adaptto.com/Products/BMS/

I've never seen a controller combined with a BMS. I will say I only use smart BMS's to be able to monitor the cell group voltages myself.

I have also read of people who had problems with BAC's, like the Sabvoton with its programming of settings, if a person aint into it and knows a bit, it can be a long struggle to get it working, or even matching to the motor you want but most importantly getting all the programmable inputs correct for correct motor operation. Have one number out of sync and its paper weight, unless you clue in. Easy for some who maybe dabbled a bit, but for the rest of us common folk can be a bit hard to get motivated when your expensive part aint functioning. Question is, how much time can you give to solve it when you can get the Phaserunner based BAC, and rock instantly out of the gate with world class customer service and warranty. That would be the best for me because of its size, its best for me because of its power rating. It maybe best for you for the customization like adding extra cooling capacity. One day I will get a Phaserunner, one day.

Silly, go to YouTube and see for yourself why person after person rave about ASI BAC8000.

Nucular 24f is next in line.

Its like asking, what makes a Rolls Royce a great car

 

[lqbweb]

I am surprised nobody mentioned VESC, now that they have native support for Pas, for me it is the way to go. Check Flipsky 75100

 

[larsb]

THERE IS NOTHING THAT CAN COMPARE TO ASI BAC8000 OR BAC4000...

GO TO YOUTUBE AND SEE FOR YOURSELF

WHAT ARE YOUR CREDENTIALS? WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOUR KEYBOARD?

:lol: this made my day

youtube is not exactly a credible source of information and i’ve seen a number of people here that have had BAC8000 issues. Could still be a good controller.

I normally commute on ebikes all year so i’ve done about 10.000-15.000km/year ebiking for some years, hence i’ve seen controllers come and go.

Let’s tick the list:
-Adapttos aren’t around anymore
-Sabvotons get both happy (it works and didn’t explode) and unhappy users (it exploded)
Lyen and powervelocity controllers are just modded chinese controllers, better mosfets. Not waterpoof, cheap harness and connectors. Not worth the prices in my opinion.
- I’ve had one Lyen, it had throttle modulation issues (on/off behaviour). It was scary with a powerful motor due to the uncontrollable onset. Other controllers were equally powerful but had better power regulation.
- I’ve had one powervelocity that blew up under low load and i was reimbursed due to other quality issues. I would not buy from them again even though i got the money back.
-I’ve had five kelly KLS72300 that broke during low load. Yup, five. Why did i continue to buy them..
They also don’t have field weakening so for these reasons they’re off my possible recommended controller lists
-I’ve had two Votol EM150 eventually breaking under low load but these were ridden way outside of rated settings at other times. If the program wasn’t so screwed up i might recommend one.
-I’ve had two mid adapttos, they broke and weren’t powerful when they worked. Not impressed with their customer service and honesty and in the end the company went bust.
-I’ve had two KT controllers, both died from water ingress but lived for a really long time at low power (max 1-1.5kW)
-I’ve had one APT96600, still works and could be a good controller but some of the program functions are blocked and it’s therefore not recommended. Too bad since the full function could be great by the looks of it. It fits on a motorbike, not on an ebike.
-VESCs have been breaking left and right for users on the efoil forum i also hang out in and propeller drive is easier on controllers than traction drive. Therefore i am hesitant if they are suited for ebikes, at least at power levels above 2kW or so. Even trampa VESC 75300 (which is quite expensive) seems to break easily.

Today i would buy a fardriver controller or an ASI bac just because i haven’t tried one yet. Nucular if they would be available sometime this decade.

 

[lqbweb]

I think, the chances a controller breaks are high, this is why I hesitate to buy a really expensive one like ASI or Phaserunner or something like that...
I had plenty KT controllers, they are fine, but they have no FOC, and only up to 13S. Also the 6 fets one is only good to 1000w or something. These I like because they are really cheap, if they break, just have another one hanging around and connect it. For me none has yet break. I fried many but it was while experimenting with them hahaha.

My short experience with VESC... They are awesome, they are at a different level. I am experimenting with them on a Mac 8T, and it is so far great. It can drive it decently even sensorless. It autodetect phases, halls, and everything. Until now they were expensive, but now you can have also cheap VESC 4.2 that are ok for low power or from Flipsky the 75100 with alu case, got a very nice specs for just 130 bucks. Only problem with Vesc is the PAS implementation is relatively new, and in my experience it is running mostly fine, just sometimes it won't stop till you move slightly the pedal for it to send a new pulse. But this should be fine with the next Vesc 6.0 firmware.
Also I like that VESC runs fine without display, it is simple setup... nothing that can break... I just need to find the way to change between power profiles with a couple of buttons.

The only other controller that I would consider is Nucular... I am on the waiting list.. But that is already pushing the limits of what I consider "cheap"...

 

[larsb]

Agreed. ASI is known for their unhelpful business setup, probably because it’s a lot of hassle to work with end users as a lot of them don’t know enough to hookup the controller without breaking it. I wouldn’t want to run a controller business towards consumers.

 

[larsb]

No caps, please! Only people with small brains write like they are screaming all the time

To make any controller wirelessly road legal isn’t so hard, a hall or reed switch in your handlebars connected to the three speed switch line and a magnet in your glove. Would work with most controllers, nearly all have three speed function or sport mode activation with a button that could be used like this. Or get an rfid relay to do the same thing.

 

[DogDipstick]

I have been recommended Far Driver, too, recently. From a few sources, friends. Seems to be the latest greatest thing. From people who have run it all, and have run brush less bikes for the last ten years or more. Far more experienced than me.

I have a pile of older design controllers of a few makes. A collection. More than I could use. It is nice to have someone as experienced as Larsb. I am kinda on the same page when it comes to his experienced recommendations. I also have friends who recommend the BAC units but they are not tuners... and I am.. and i dont want to go through the finicky part of paying for someone else's " tune"... I need to have full diagnostic capability of anything i run for I am my own mechanic and I rely on a good understanding of the system.

As for now I invest my time in older designs that have worked out all the glitches and kinks years ago, and are cheap.

Friend of mine has two Nukes on pre-order.. and I know of a private sale of a ND961800 if you are interested. Asking price is 800$.

If a VESC was cheaper in the price ranges I like, ( high current hardware) I would be trying that.

Reliability is a primary concern of mine.

 

[tomjasz]

[So this criteria from the OP got lost among all of the bravado; no viable candidates so far:

"Ability to have at least 2x preprogrammed settings that can be switched wirelessly between roadlegal and offroad, and optional"
Maybe he should have written it in all CAPS ?

Can’t that be done with a CA3.1 and Grins Phaserunner or Baserunner. I bought a couple switches but havent gotten to it yet.

Wired of course but still pretty convenient. Old guy here relishing riding without wireless devices and smartphones.

 

[E-HP]

[So this criteria from the OP got lost among all of the bravado; no viable candidates so far:

"Ability to have at least 2x preprogrammed settings that can be switched wirelessly between roadlegal and offroad, and optional"
Maybe he should have written it in all CAPS ?

Can’t that be done with a CA3.1 and Grins Phaserunner or Baserunner. I bought a couple switches but havent gotten to it yet.

Wired of course but still pretty convenient. Old guy here relishing riding without wireless devices and smartphones.

I think the OP was implying control by phone. But the CA user presets would work great. I'm sure once a cop sees the one called "Legal", he doesn't have to waste any time looking further. Pass!

 

[LewTwo]

Old guy here relishing riding without wireless devices and smartphones.

DITTO :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

If I have to have a smart-ass phone to use my ebike then I will looking for a different bike.

 

[jskounakis]

What about Mobipus controllers? Has anyone tried those?

https://ballaratebikes.com/products/72v-89-9v-600a-mobipus-72600-foc-sine-wave-controller-plus-wifi-dongle-and-water-cooling

Also VESC upgrades, like https://3shulmotors.com/

What a headache, I'm also trying to find a suitable controller and I'm lost. Fardriver gets advertised a lot, but China stuff scares me.

 

[calab]

The "Best" controller is the controller you made yourself, a Lebowski derivative diy cont.

 

[amberwolf]

What about Mobipus controllers? Has anyone tried those?

A few threads about them:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/search.php?keywords=Mobipus&terms=all&author=&sc=1&sf=titleonly&sr=topics&sk=t&sd=d&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search
including at least one discussing the problems with programming them / setting up for your specific system (required to be able to use it). The list is a lot of information / reading, but it should answer many questions you might have about them.

Also VESC upgrades, like https://3shulmotors.com/

Some lists of threads about various versions, including several designed by ES members:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/search.php?keywords=VESC&terms=all&author=&sc=1&sf=titleonly&sr=topics&sk=t&sd=d&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/search.php?keywords=VESC&terms=all&author=&sc=1&sf=firstpost&sr=topics&sk=t&sd=d&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search
These lists are too much information / reading to actually go thru all of it, but if you pick a few threads by titles that match your interests, they may answer many questions you might have about them. VESC is open-source, so there are many variations of it, from versions intended to run tiny RC cars and such to versions intended for large-EV racing and aircraft purposes.

but China stuff scares me.

Virtually every controller you might want is made in China, including everything so far discussed in this thread, AFAIK, excepting possibly the Nucular (which might still be made there for the company that sells them, at least as modules they then assemble; don't know; it's common enough). . Even ASI, except for small amounts of stuff made at their place in Canada, is made in China, etc. Don't know about Adaptto, but AFAICT they're not around anymore/available anyway, and I suspect like most they get their stuff made in China, possibly assembled into final items by the main company.

 

[LewTwo]

..... , but China stuff scares me.

Maybe has someone has an accurate number but I will hazard a guess that 90% of the ebike stuff is manufactured in China. A slightly lower number for all bicycle stuff.

 

[gobi]

What about Mobipus controllers? Has anyone tried those?

A few threads about them:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/search.php?keywords=Mobipus&terms=all&author=&sc=1&sf=titleonly&sr=topics&sk=t&sd=d&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search
including at least one discussing the problems with programming them / setting up for your specific system (required to be able to use it). The list is a lot of information / reading, but it should answer many questions you might have about them.

Also VESC upgrades, like https://3shulmotors.com/

Amber,
What are the key features to look for in a well designed controller above 100amps?

I goog'd to see the internals of a far driver controller but I could not find any.

 

[larsb]

I've tried to get a mobipus on two occasions and the mobipus agent disappeared in the middle of the purchase both times. I don't think they care about end users enough to be trusted with your cash. Then i'd also avoid it due to the setup issues like Amber mentioned. Passwords needed to get into completely normal settings? No thanks.

 

[amberwolf]

Amber,
What are the key features to look for in a well designed controller above 100amps?

That depends on exactly what you need your system to do for you, and in what way, and what kinds of customizability you require, if any.

You'd need to create for yourself as complete a list of required features and functions as you can imagine. If there are features that are not required but are desirable, make them a separate sublist.

Then look at controllers that have all the required features, and make a list of those. If any of them also have desirable features, then those would go to the top of the list.

Then you can look around for people with problems with any of these controllers, and how they were resolved by the manufacturers, assuming there was any support available, and any attempts were made and described. You can also directly communicate with those manufacturers you are considering, to see how well they do in this--if they don't perform acceptably, take them off your list.

After that, then you can sort the list by whatever other criteria you prefer, such as cost, size, time for availability and/or shipping, etc.

It's very possible that you won't find a controller that meets all your criteria, and if that's the case you'd need to decide what you can compromise on. If there are no requirements you can give up or alter, you'd be at the point of picking a controller platform you have the ability to modify to meet them, and go with whatever is available in those that meets all your other requirements, etc.


My personal opinion is that there are NO controllers out there with sufficient user-friendliness for a basic DIYer that are also sufficiently customizable, that also have sufficient support.

The closest I have found (based mostly on member threads here) is the Phaserunner series because Grin Tech created their own setup software for it, and they are often (but apparently not always) available to help with issues setting one up when the automated routines and info in the manuals don't complete the job. But it's a relatively low-power controller, probably not suitable for your usage given the 100A requirement you have, not knowing any of your other requirements.

After that, it gets beyond basic DIYer and into advanced stuff requiring either altering software or hardware or both to customize sufficiently for some purposes. Easiest to do this with are open-source efforts like the many VESC projects, or the Lebowski brain (for which you must provide a powerstage, but which means you can make it as powerful as you want).

 

[gobi]

Amber,
What are the key features to look for in a well designed controller above 100amps?

That depends on exactly what you need your system to do for you, and in what way, and what kinds of customizability you require, if any.

You'd need to create for yourself as complete a list of required features and functions as you can imagine. If there are features that are not required but are desirable, make them a separate sublist.

After that, then you can sort the list by whatever other criteria you prefer, such as cost, size, time for availability and/or shipping, etc.



After that, it gets beyond basic DIYer and into advanced stuff requiring either altering software or hardware or both to customize sufficiently for some purposes. Easiest to do this with are open-source efforts like the many VESC projects, or the Lebowski brain (for which you must provide a powerstage, but which means you can make it as powerful as you want).

I pared my needs down to 2 must have features:
1. Bluetooth connectivity
2. Regen braking (variable would be crème Brulee)

factored with reasonable costs and adequate heat dissipation, I am cool any brand that is reasonable in $$$$.

Amps is just a monkey see monkey do thing I guess, I do not have access to ride my bike any there faster than 20 to 25 mph.

I am going to do a VESC build next (post coming soon), and I am in the process of picking up some Panasonic FM capacitors from Mauser.
Unfortunately, life right now does not allow for time to fab my own controller, but configuration manipulation in software, yes, I can do that.

I have a far driver controller that I want to use to bench test my controls and regen, made a little table top hub mount to test it.

Being best but being unobtainum does not work for me.

Yes, I have been following quite a few threads on controllers and advanced discussions, most of the stuff on those threads are bit above my pay scale and I have to read it a few times to digest it.

Ah phaserunner, they have a new one frakenrunner or something, blown away by the size compared to my fardriver!