“White” Hydrogen ?

Hillhater said:
Show me some of that evidence of a wind/solar supplied grid that maintains full 24/7-365 demand without FFuel support ?
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...Now you're just making yourself look stupid. We're still in the first decade or so of serious effort to convert a mostly fossil fueled grid to non fossil energy sources. It took over a century to get to the setup we have now, and fossil shills like you have consistently, deliberately, slowed the process of moving off fossil fuels for electricity generation. You nitwits have been doing that for decades.

The clear and obvious advantages of PV over FF is no longer something you can lie about and get taken seriously. Get the frack out of the way and let us make the shift ASAP, and maybe our grandkids wont curse us for being blind, stuborn, idiots.
 
stancecoke said:
?! Where do you read that?
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here…
Minister Reiche said that one major goal is to “better align” renewable energy buildout and electricity grid expansion. In her view, renewables development has proceeded in a way that neglected cost-efficiency. For example, as crucial new power transmission lines are taking too long to build, electricity from wind turbines in Germany’s north is sometimes curtailed because it cannot be transmitted to where it is needed in southern states. At the same time, fossil fuel plants in the south are fired up at high cost to balance the grid.

“We must eliminate network bottlenecks before new capacity is added,” the minister said. She also argued that the high grid fees consumers pay to expand and maintain electricity networks are due to a “completely unrealistic, completely exaggerated renewable energy target.” The previous government in 2022 decided to align renewables expansion with the Paris Agreement goal of limiting global warming to 1.5°C. It reformed the Renewable Energy Act(EEG) and introduced the target of covering 80 percent of electricity consumption from renewables by 2030, setting ambitious capacity targets for wind and solar power by 2030 and 2040. If Germany were to use less electricity by 2030 than initially projected, renewables expansion could be slower than planned as well, and still allow the country to reach the 80-percent share.

Reiche also said that new small-scale solar PV installations no longer require state support, adding that electricity system costs must be “lowered significantly,” and that her government would focus on supply security. The minister wants to incentivise the construction of 20 gigawatts (GW) of new gas power plants as backup for intermittent renewables as the country phases coal out, and later introduce a capacity market for a wider range of backup plants.
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stancecoke said:
It is right, that it is discussed to stop the subsidies for solar power and concentrate on enhancing the grid. There is not one single word, that coal, gas or nuclear would be cheaper.
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History doesnt lie,..
Electricity prices in Germany have more than doubled since 2000 ,..the period when most renewables have replaced the previously coal and Nuclear based grid.
 
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classicalgas said:
...We're still in the first decade or so of serious effort to convert a mostly fossil fueled grid to non fossil energy sources. It took over a century to get to the setup we have now,
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Western countries, (Europe, UK, USA, Australia , etc) started the change to renewables in the early ‘90s…30+ years ago !
Maybe the delays in renewable adoption is because not everybody is as convinced as you would like to believe, that it is the right thing to do ?

classicalgas said:
The clear and obvious advantages of PV over FF is no longer something you can lie about and get taken seriously.
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What exact “clear and obvious advantage” do you see for PV over FF ?
classicalgas said:
let us make the shift ASAP, and maybe our grandkids wont curse us for being blind, stuborn, idiots.
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They are already cursing us for making energy so expensive that they cannot afford the life style our generation led them to expect.
 
Real reason we haven't developed alternative energy in the states..

Local oil-ocracy has so much money that they managed to bribe both parties in the USA into getting nearly anything they want..
Including tons of tariffs on anything that could displace oil usage over the last 4 administrations..
And some modifications to CAFE standards that encourage increased oil usage in the form of looking the other way, emissions and economy wise, on SUVs.

In the USA you can basically bet on "political donations" determining how things are regulated, subsidized, taxed, discouraged, or encouraged, etc.

Funny that someone would put the blame on hillhater when he's just a resident contrarian on a forum of 77k people.. not an oil company executive or congressman.. sheesh..
 
Hillhater said:
here…


History doesnt lie,..
Electricity prices in Germany have more than doubled since 2000 ,..the period when most renewables have replaced the previously coal and Nuclear based grid.
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There was also a pandemic, and a war with Russia. So blaming those price increases on reducing coal use is ridiculous (like so many of your statements )
 
Hillhater said:
Western countries, (Europe, UK, USA, Australia , etc) started the change to renewables in the early ‘90s…30+ years ago !
Maybe the delays in renewable adoption is because not everybody is as convinced as you would like to believe, that it is the right thing to do ?
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If you look at the graphs of construction of renewable energy power (other than hydro), and the increase in PV efficiency, the curves are still nearly flat until about 2000. Even thirty years is a short time to rebuild a 125 year old grid, (especially with nitwits getting paid to slow the process down, and presidents frocking things up out of personal spite)
 
Hillhater said:
They are already cursing us for making energy so expensive that they cannot afford the life style our generation led them to expect.
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No,they are cursing us for not getting started on the shift away from FF decades ago, and cursing all you semi professional obstructionists for slowing down a obviously needed fix.
 
Hillhater said:
And all this objection and negativity when i was only suggesting that the may be another , renewable, zero carbon fuel option available inthefuture ?
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No, you were using a "someday, maybe" hydrogen source as a springboard for your usual pro nuke, pro fossil bloviation.
 
classicalgas said:
No,they are cursing us for not getting started on the shift away from FF decades ago, and cursing all you semi professional obstructionists for slowing down a obviously needed fix.
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Exactly what “needed fix” would that be ?
We had a perfectly functional , reliable, low cost, electricity grid , until some con artist (M Mann etc) fooled some gullible power mongers at the UN , with a fake graph.
 
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neptronix said:
Funny that someone would put the blame on hillhater
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I don't know, why I am contributing to this discussion again and again, as I know, @Hillhater just ignores any objective figures. He is right, that renewables can't deliver the full amount of the electricity demand the whole year. But his suggested alternatives are unpayable also. Batteries will not be able to cover two weeks of "Dunkelflaute". Keeping fossile plants, that are capable of the whole demand as backup for for running only two weeks a year sounds not senseful also.
Storing the surplus of renewables from the summer for the demand in the winter is the issue, we have to solve. But I don't know how. You will get the Nobel price for the right idea, that's sure ;)
 
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stancecoke said:
, @Hillhater just ignores any objective figures.
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?? Which specific figures are you suggesting i ignor ?
stancecoke said:
He is right, that renewables can't deliver the full amount of the electricity demand the whole year. But his suggested alternatives are unpayable also. Batteries will not be able to cover two weeks of "Dunkelflaute". Keeping fossile plants, that are capable of the whole demand as backup for for running only two weeks a year sounds not senseful also.
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I did not suggest batteries could cover those periods,..infact the exact opposie !
…i pointed out how impractical and financially ludicrous that idea would be.
..as is the concept of keeping a full fleet of fossil plants for backup. ….But that is exactly what Germany currently does. !
 
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Hillhater said:
?? Which specific figures are you suggesting i ignor ?
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You are ignoring or even denying, that renewables are the cheapest way to produce electricity. If you regard the whole system costs in long term. Without any subsidies. If the cost optimum in a mix of various sources is at 60%, 80% or 95% renewables? I don't know. It will differ from country to country, depending on the local wind and sun conditions.
 
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Hillhater said:
Those were all in the last 5-6 years, …..what about the previous 30 yrs ?
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Renewables were barely a thing thirty years ago(other than hydro, and most of those affecting US power prices were built over fifty years ago) So how would renewables affect power price jumps thirty years ago?
 
Hillhater said:
Exactly what “needed fix” would that be ?
We had a perfectly functional , reliable, low cost, electricity grid , until some con artist (M Mann etc) fooled some gullible power mongers at the UN , with a fake graph.
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There you go again,. implying that AGW isn't a serious issue.
 
Hillhater said:
Nice dodge …. How about you repeat a few,..just to remind me incase i missed them !🤔
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Don't be a lazy twit, there are several (detailed descriptions of how PV plus batteries are superior to anything else, in several ways ) on the previous page.

You dodge points that prove you wrong, constantly, so maybe you don't want to go there.
 
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classicalgas said:
Don't be a lazy shit, there are several (detailed descriptions of how PV plus batteries are superior to anything else, in several ways ) on the previous page.

You dodge points that prove you wrong, constantly, so maybe you don't want to go there.
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@Hillhater can be stubborn and frustrating, but you don't have to respond if you're feeling like your points aren't being responded to. Please don't resort to inappropriate language.
 
It'd be even better if both of you could let the point go, neither of you is getting anywhere with the other, and we're way off the original topic of hydrogen.

I'll post @neptronix 's usual reference for when threads get out of hand, as this one has

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stancecoke said:
You are ignoring or even denying, that renewables are the cheapest way to produce electricity. If you regard the whole system costs in long term. Without any subsidies. If the cost optimum in a mix of various sources is at 60%, 80% or 95% renewables? I don't know. It will differ from country to country, depending on the local wind and sun conditions.
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You may believe that, but as i keep reminding you, every country that has introduced Wind ans Solar has experienced increases in the cost of electricity to consumers, mostly due to all the additional costs necessary to make them effective, backup /storage, network integration and transmission, FCAS services, limited lifetime, etc.
If the objective is to attain “Net Zero” CO2, the only mix that is acceptable must be 100% ?
I am only aware of 2 regeons that have achieved that level with Wind&solar,..
…Spain this year when then immediatelly suffered a total system blackout due to FCAS failure.
…and South Australia where again a total Blackout was the result of the Wind generators shut down in high winds, and Fossil fueled backup supply was not available.
Why should we use expensive and difficult to handle hydrogen, if we can bridge times with little sun and wind by simple natural gas plants?! No one will care about the CO2 pollution of this few hours per year.
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Just to get back to the original subject, …this is not just about electricity generation, but all the other uses tha H2 is both currently used for industrially and potentially in the future.
Any current H2 uses (Amonia/fertiliser production , steel production, food processing, etc) , rely on either Fossil fuel sources for manufacture, or expensive and limited Green sources (Solar +Electrolysers).
A renewable , natural , source of White Hydrogen, would be an invaluable alternative for those uses if net zero is the requirement
 
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