Who needs ebikes

[Lectriceye]

I started riding bikes whenI was about 6 years old, that was 745 eears ago. I can't remember when I didn't have one or 2 bikes to ride. Over the years I became competitive in bike riding, for pleasure, to school, and later to work. As I aged and slowed down, the hills got steeper, the wind seemed to blow harder, and everything seemed like it was uphill so about the age of 80, my bikes started to gather dust from sitting in the garage. Fortuitously, I was visiting my my daughter and son-in-law on my 81st birthday, and they had just recently purchased 2 ebikes. After I poo pooed them about being lazy, I took a ride on one of their ebikes and by golly, I was sold, I purchased my own within a month; that was only last November.

It was only a few weeks later that I discovered there was a an ebike club in our small town, setup as a Facebook group, Florence ebike, and it had 95 members, now up to 150 and growing all the time. What I notice about this group is they are 95% older adults, retired and looking for outdoor activity for pleasure and health. I sense this is the case all over the country and clearly, this is no longer a hobby for a bunch of ebike nerds, it is a growning economic trend. I liken this to the PC business in the 90's, when I started building PC's as a hobby after retirement. All it took was easy access to the internet via dialup networking (if any of you younger people remember what that is), with 14.4 & 28.8 kb bandwidth to make the PC business really takeoff. Suddenly everybody in the world wanted to have a PC to send and receive emails and surf the web. I along with many others started building and selling PC's en-mass and hooking people up to the internet. At first there were many OEM's competing for a piece of the pie, and there were many different standards emergin,g causing a lot of conflicts. But now now, like the automobile inductry there are the Big 3: HP, IBM, and Dell.

So lets hear a shout out for the old people, the commuters and everyone else who want to ride an ebike, At some point there will be a consolodation of vendors, standard protocols and interfaces, all for the benefit of us the customers.

 

[99t4]

Happy to see you are re-experiencing the joys of bicycling!

 

[neptronix]

There's standardized stuff out there, it's just that most people aren't buying it and getting hooked into proprietary crap.

i'll keep buying easily interchangeable parts myself.

..same goes for computers, no soldered on RAM or CPUs for me, my dollar vote goes towards maintaining open standards and maintainability.

 

[Lectriceye]

There's standardized stuff out there, it's just that most people aren't buying it and getting hooked into proprietary crap.

i'll keep buying easily interchangeable parts myself.

..same goes for computers, no soldered on RAM or CPUs for me, my dollar vote goes towards maintaining open standards and maintainability.

I agree totally, as a 50 retired veteran of the computer business, I have seen it grow, consolodate and move more and more to standard interfaces, operating systems, and everything else. I am sure the non-conformists will soon find themselves on the outside looking in, wondering what happened to their customers.

 

[Chalo]

At some point there will be a consolodation of vendors, standard protocols and interfaces, all for the benefit of us the customers.

What a sweet idea. Maybe after we build the workers' paradise and cure all suffering.

 

[99zip99]

Wait wait wait are you trying to tell me black is negative and red is positive ?
First start with Europe my girlfriend's Alfa Romeo has a wire for the windows when it goes through the door it's spliced right at the door and guess what the Itlians in Italy use a different color wire after they started with one color for the power windows. Those sneaky Italians.
Are they doing the Chinese wiring system ?
That 85 spider stop me working on automobiles I lost my will Bosch motronics too much oil good enough to screw the pick up on the flywheel. You need a new computer I pulled out the pickup and wiped off the oil. Thanks oh sorry I heard the word computer.
That reminds me I got to go downstairs and work on some controllers see if I can make them work. Next.
The heart of an e-bike is the battery so make sure you get a good battery I love the Bluetooth BMS.
I can't find what a bike you and your family have purchased how about a link or some info please

Oh I can't help it 745 ears sounds like a pig farmer .
Haha sorry
It must be text to talk.

 

[LewTwo]

What a sweet idea. Maybe after we build the workers' paradise and cure all suffering.

... and cable TV installers will all properly bury their cables ... like that is going to happen.

There will always be people who are too cheap (or are in too big a hurry) to do things properly. Technology will continue to march on and along with new technology comes new ways to doing things that were formerly continued 'standard'. Remember that the standard bike in the 1950's had a curved frame, coaster brake and balloon tires. In the 1980's the standard bike had a double diamond steel frame, derailleur and caliper brakes of some sort ... well except for those 20 inch bikes with the Banana seats. Personally I still like caliper and coaster brakes. They are reliable, low maintenance and I have never seen a cable actuated brake system leak oily fluid on to the braking surfaces.

My point to this worthless rant is that different people have different tastes, use bikes differently and for different purposes. As long as that continues there be limits to what can/will be standardized.

P.S.
I was reading a 'technical' post from a certain bike shop on line last nigh. The author stated " .... all modern bikes use a 1-1/8 inch threadless steerer tube ...". Ahhhh, no they do not. Maybe all the mountain bikes that particular vendor sells all use that size and type steerer tube.

 

[crunchysteve]

Never a racer, always an explorer, came to cycles as transport in my early 20s because my Australian home state, Tasmania (little island off the SE corner) changed it's motorcycle laws so that I would have had to start learning from scratch rather than get my existing licence endorsed. So I bought a bicycle instead of a motorcycle. Best decision of my life. I have owned cars, but I hate driving. I'm a competent, sensible driver, but all that inappropriate level of technology to mostly move one person. That's my technical background, an engineer at heart, the simplest solution is best... mostly.

Fast forward 40 years, I'm still riding lower midrange bikes. I bike hack a lot because of that, it's all part of the fun. Hence, rather than buy a cheap ebike when my ticker popped, I bought a cheap kit for the bike I have loved for 8 years.

Nobody "needs" an ebike, but free expression rules and electrics provide equity of access to something that is a way of life as much as a mode of transport. The bicycle, the last great technological advance that the non-technical can understand. To an extent, even ebikes fit this.

 

[99zip99]

I have four Lyen controllers I have a programming cable with a button and I had Windows 7 supposedly I needed Windows 10 after 12 years I've just gotten Windows 10 now I got to get my IT guy to help and not make fun of the event. I'm a little scared of my laptop but the old 19 inch screen. Acer.
Plus I went through three power velocity controllers he's out by Sacramento never worked right he still has two 15 and 18 fit he said well you're not going to come up here and laughed.
Cyc sold me a kit with an ASI 855 Bluetooth controller and kept telling me how to do it the right way never worked finally they sold me their new X6 controller for $90 plus what I paid for the kit.
The local e-bike guy try to take in a sonders and he bought three controllers and he said he still couldn't hook him up he's a machinist and been running an e-bike shop for 15 years ? I don't know what that meant but I didn't want to get involved. Sometimes you just want to act dumb and get out of it. Oh like my iIT buddy.

 

[Lectriceye]

I have four Lyen controllers I have a programming cable with a button and I had Windows 7 supposedly I needed Windows 10 after 12 years I've just gotten Windows 10 now I got to get my IT guy to help and not make fun of the event. I'm a little scared of my laptop but the old 19 inch screen. Acer.
Plus I went through three power velocity controllers he's out by Sacramento never worked right he still has two 15 and 18 fit he said well you're not going to come up here and laughed.
Cyc sold me a kit with an ASI 855 Bluetooth controller and kept telling me how to do it the right way never worked finally they sold me their new X6 controller for $90 plus what I paid for the kit.
The local e-bike guy try to take in a sonders and he bought three controllers and he said he still couldn't hook him up he's a machinist and been running an e-bike shop for 15 years ? I don't know what that meant but I didn't want to get involved. Sometimes you just want to act dumb and get out of it. Oh like my iIT buddy.

That's my motto on computers, if someone asks you a question, just say I don't know, otherwise you get involved in a lot more than you want. lol

 

[rafalg]

and when it still doesnt work, now it's your fault or incompetence

 

[Lectriceye]

This is an attempt at reviving this thread. "Who Needs Ebikes". Perusing other websites and seeing a lot of trash talk from non-ebikers and a lot of stupid laws pertaining to ebikes, I have come to the conclusion that there is a conspiracy to constrain the sale of ebikes, thus choking the industry to death. Okay, maybe that's a little strong, but lets face it. I understand the need for speed limits in areas where speed and be a danger to others. One of the first three laws pertaining to the first automobiles in 1900 was a speed limit of 12 mph in town and 15 mph in rural areas. Nobody questioned the power of the motor, or the capability of the machine, it was and is the responsibility of the driver to control the speed of their vehicle where necessary, sort of like controlling the speed of their horse in town. And BTW, the first automobile manufacturer was a man named Winton, who was a bicycle manufacturer, circa 1900. Okay back to ebikes. first we have purely mechanical bikes that have been around for all of the 20th century, and nobody cares how fast they can go or who is riding them as long as they don't exceed the automobile speed limit. Manufacurers could do just about anything they wanted to make road bikes, gravel bikes, BTB,s or whatever. But, put an electric motor on it and suddenly we have a everywhere that limit the power, they type of assist (PAS or Throttle), and maximum speed, all unique to ebikes. To me this is insane governmental intrvention that loimits the industry. Really, where can you go and buy and legally ride an ebike that isn't class 1,2, or 3? And what's the difference between the three, not much, that can't be changes with a couple minor alterations in programming or configuration, which of ocurse would make them illegal.

So what we have now is a lot of manufacturer's competing in a very narrow spectrum of capability and a wide variety of prices, primarily differentiated by quality and reliabilty. For the most part these bikes seem to satify the majority of older nubies who get out out and ride around the block a couple times a week when the sun is shining, believing they are getting their exercise. But peole who wan more find themselves in a situation where they must build it themselves, like myself and probablythe majority of you. But having taken the initiative to modify our bikes to what we want we are now outside the law, regardless of how conciencious we are about obeying the speed limits, etc. I fortunately live in a rural area with a small police force who could probably care less and probably know less, as long as you are not committing any traffic violations. Heck we don't even need to stop at stop signs, we treat them as yield signs. I suppose if I were speeding through downtown at 35mph, a stupid Idea, I might be noticed, but otherwise no harm, no foul. I just hope our lawmakers wake up and cometo their senses sometime soon, and get rid of some of the dumb ebike rules that don't help anyone.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

I understand the need for speed limits in areas where speed and be a danger to others. One of the first three laws pertaining to the first automobiles in 1900 was a speed limit of 12 mph in town and 15 mph in rural areas. Nobody questioned the power of the motor, or the capability of the machine, it was and is the responsibility of the driver to control the speed of their vehicle where necessary, sort of like controlling the speed of their horse in town. And BTW, the first automobile manufacturer was a man named Winton, who was a bicycle manufacturer, circa 1900. Okay back to ebikes. first we have purely mechanical bikes that have been around for all of the 20th century, and nobody cares how fast they can go or who is riding them as long as they don't exceed the automobile speed limit. Manufacurers could do just about anything they wanted to make road bikes, gravel bikes, BTB,s or whatever. But, put an electric motor on it and suddenly we have a everywhere that limit the power, they type of assist (PAS or Throttle), and maximum speed, all unique to ebikes. To me this is insane governmental intrvention that loimits the industry.

In the Netherlands, they do dyno test ebikes and issue expensive fines if the bike goes over the power limit:

Dutch Police Testing E-Bikes for Power Output – Electric Bike Report

In the Netherlands, cycling is one of the most common forms of transportation used. As a result, cycling and cyclists are much more closely scrutinized than in many first-world countries. With so many people riding bike and e-bikes, the government recognized a need to outlaw talking on a cell...

electricbikereport.com

"The Dutch government has purchased 247 portable dynamometers that can be positioned in locations with high e-bike traffic and the police can stop riders and test their e-bike’s output. E-bikes that exceed that 250W nominal rating will earn their owners a ticket €290 ($312 USD)."

As described in the article this is because of the rise in deaths and injuries caused by the presence of ebikes.

P.S. I remember reading not so long ago people in NYC angry about the increase in death and injury (including those involving pedestrians hit by ebike riders) that came when ebikes were finally legalized. So the problem is not just in the Netherlands. It is happening in some areas here as well....but so far no dynos.

Side note: Apparently Spain does dyno testing as well even on scooters:

 

[Lectriceye]

That's very interesting, wonder what the injury rate is on conventional bikes. In the US the National Library of Medicine says there are 1.4 injuries on ebikes per 1000. Recent information (2021) NHTSA’s National Center for Statistics and Analysis defines pedalcyclists as bicyclists and other cyclists including riders of two-wheel, nonmotorized vehicles, tricycles, and unicycles powered solely by pedals. Throughout this document, “bicyclists” includes riders of these other types of cycles.says bicycle injuries averaged about 45,000 per year, with a slight decrease since then. Unfortunately there is no valid information on the number of users.

What this all means to me is that too much speed is dangerous on any moving mode of transportation or recreation, but running around using dynamo-meters isn't the solution, because power expressed as watts or torque doesn't translate directly to speed.

 

[Lectriceye]

In the Netherlands, they do dyno test ebikes and issue expensive fines if the bike goes over the power limit:

View attachment 361743

Dutch Police Testing E-Bikes for Power Output – Electric Bike Report

In the Netherlands, cycling is one of the most common forms of transportation used. As a result, cycling and cyclists are much more closely scrutinized than in many first-world countries. With so many people riding bike and e-bikes, the government recognized a need to outlaw talking on a cell...

electricbikereport.com

"The Dutch government has purchased 247 portable dynamometers that can be positioned in locations with high e-bike traffic and the police can stop riders and test their e-bike’s output. E-bikes that exceed that 250W nominal rating will earn their owners a ticket €290 ($312 USD)."

As described in the article this is because of the rise in deaths and injuries caused by the presence of ebikes.

P.S. I remember reading not so long ago people in NYC angry about the increase in death and injury (including those involving pedestrians hit by ebike riders) that came when ebikes were finally legalized. So the problem is not just in the Netherlands. It is happening in some areas here as well....but so far no dynos.

Side note: Apparently Spain does dyno testing as well even on scooters:

View attachment 361744

In the US police need to have probable cause or reasonable suspicion to stop you; which, as it applies to bikes, would probably mean you are over the speed limit. I could just see them pulling over a Ferrari on the freeway doing the speed limit and giving the driver a ticket because he had the capability to go much faster than the speed limit. yada yada yada

 

[offGridDownUnder]

E-bikes that exceed that 250W nominal rating will earn their owners a ticket €290 ($312 USD)

I'm curious about this (not disputing, curious).

My understanding is that the rating is not defined as "never exceeds 250W instantaneously" but rather something like "stops working if it exceeds 250W for a period of 5 minutes or more". The SX2 I had on my trike would pull 900W going up a very steep hill nearby, but would presumably go into thermal roll-back soon after (the hill is too short to find out).

Does anyone know what the definition in the Netherlands is?

NSW state here in Oz has changed it's laws to permit 500W motor limits.

 

[99zip99]

Those little punks are now getting there e-bikes taken to the police station. They ride right at you doing a wheelie on the bike path. If there are 13 or 14 years old they're riding double. But the person in the back feet hanging out on the side usually riding on the sidewalk and if they see the light green they jump off the sidewalk across and go to the other side without looking.
My buddy bought a surron the cop pulled them over and said you can't ride it on the street on the bike path you can go find some private property. San Juan Capistrano
Yeah one of the original California mission towns.

 

[99zip99]

I hate e-bikes. !
Trump's going to put a tariff on them.
First we can't get enough e-bikes now we have too many as people are giving away free bikes with dead batteries or problems.
Somebody had to write a book about the Eav & flow of e-bikes. Because when tariffs hit we're not going to be able to afford them.

 

[fill]

Are all 'legal' dutch ebike controllers limited to 6a peak output (250w / 42v = 5.9A)??

Seems like every bike sold in the eu would be liable for a fine in the Netherlands??

 

[offGridDownUnder]

Are all 'legal' dutch ebike controllers limited to 6a peak output (250w / 42v = 5.9A)??

Seems like every bike sold in the eu would be liable for a fine in the Netherlands??

Information I read suggests that it's a matter of not being able to continue working if more than 250W is consumed steadily. Something like "the motor will overheat after n minutes and melt or go into thermal rollback or burst into flames". I've read 5 minutes as the value of n so far.

But I don't have a definitive answer about this yet either, and I'm looking. One aspect is that in the jurisdictions that are actually testing with dynamos - are they testing in a way that meets the written law? Or are those tests themselves not correct?

It depends on what they are testing vs. what the actual written law says. This is a basis for challenging a supposed infraction, as well as a concern about wasting Police monies on a flawed testing regime, and most importantly to me - I want to know how to conform to the law so I don't have my bike seized.

I am most interested in Australia, as that is where I am, of course, but what other countries do will illuminate the situation too.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

I'm curious about this (not disputing, curious).

My understanding is that the rating is not defined as "never exceeds 250W instantaneously" but rather something like "stops working if it exceeds 250W for a period of 5 minutes or more". The SX2 I had on my trike would pull 900W going up a very steep hill nearby, but would presumably go into thermal roll-back soon after (the hill is too short to find out).

Does anyone know what the definition in the Netherlands is?

NSW state here in Oz has changed it's laws to permit 500W motor limits.

I've been under the impression that the limit of 250w is for continuous power.

 

[Lectriceye]

A lot of very interesting statistics on e-bike fatalities on this link: E-bike Fatalities.
It makes the point pretty clearly about the hazards of mixing e-bikes with traffic. I was surprised by how few deaths were related to children 14 and under.

 

[Lectriceye]

A lot of very interesting statistics on e-bike fatalities on this link: E-bike Fatalities.
It makes the point pretty clearly about the hazards of mixing e-bikes with traffic. I was surprised by how few deaths were related to children 14 and under.

It looks like you can be killed by a car just as easy with a 250 watt bike as anything else, duh.

 

[Az.]

"The Dutch government has purchased 247 portable dynamometers that can be positioned in locations with high e-bike traffic and the police can stop riders and test their e-bike’s output. E-bikes that exceed that 250W nominal rating will earn their owners a ticket €290 ($312 USD)."

Don't believe everything you read on internet. They can't be measuring power as there is no EU law restricting motor power. They can measure assisted speed limit though.

 

[Az.]

This is an attempt at reviving this thread. "Who Needs Ebikes". Perusing other websites and seeing a lot of trash talk from non-ebikers and a lot of stupid laws pertaining to ebikes, I have come to the conclusion that there is a conspiracy to constrain the sale of ebikes, thus choking the industry to death.

Laws? I wouldn't say that, but I totally agree there is a conspiracy to constrain sale of e-bikes and electric cars. Media just love to blow out of proportion risk of batteries fires. On another hand they ignore risks associated with petrol vehicles.
You didn't expect petrol lobby to just roll over and give up billions of profits without fight, did you?

I just hope our lawmakers wake up and cometo their senses sometime soon, and get rid of some of the dumb ebike rules that don't help anyone.

What specific rules you don't like?