Wife bike 2.0 ( Hiryuu Lady )

[neptronix]

New wife, new bike

Me and my lady temporarily live in an apartment in the nice part of a low income area.
There's no cameras near the dumpster and people like to dump all kinds of things.

The other day someone dropped off 10 bikes, everything looked like it'd been sitting in a field for a year. I picked the most expensive bike out of the lot.



This bike appears to be a late 2000's / early 2010's model from bikesdirect at the middle of the price range.

The bike cleaned up nice after a spraying in the shower.. rims are true, brakes in perfect tune, just surface rust on steel components that could use some replacing or rust removal & could use a new seat.

The wheelbase is 1 inch shorter than Mini Hiryuu and so with a 5'6" rider on this oversized frame, it should be very forgiving to steering error. The rider has less physical coordination than me, so this is beneficial for safety.

And luckily the seat post goes up just enough so that i can ride it and make sure any rough spots are ironed out.

Plan to use the same principles as mini and super hiryuu because they were so successful:

1. Weight is biased towards the front because that's where we have the best suspension
2. Handlebars significantly forward so rider is forced to lean a bit on where the best suspension is.
3. Goathead resistant oversized tire setup ( flatout + thick tire )
4. The bike should inherit my Suntour NCX so that the comfort is improved.
5. Bike should be able to do 25mph and have enough thermal headroom that we can climb 5% grade hills for a few miles.

Motor currently undecided, current candidates are Shengyi SX2, BikeOn kit, or lightest mid drive kit.

More later!

 

[99t4]

1. Weight is biased towards the front because that's where we have the best suspension
2. Handlebars significantly forward so rider is forced to lean a bit on where the best suspension is.

Something to watch out for here is not to put too much weight bias on a lower-spec suspension fork. Hitting the end of suspension travel can be a startling accident-inducing event.

In an effort to keep the happy wife happy you might want to adjust the rider position more towards the rider's most comfortable position preference, not forcing them to lean forward just to satisfy designers benchmarks. At least experiment around. Easily done with the adjustable stem.

 

[neptronix]

I agree, but the fork is medium to high stiff and it's just a springer. It would be extremely hard to bottom out.
The fork will be replaced with an air fork if she finds the bike enjoyable. But the matching color fork is nice for now.

The given seat position is intended for me so i can ride it as a pedalbike and beat the pedalbike problems out of it temporarily.

The correct seat position for her looks like this ( actually ~1 inch lower ):



So kind of a middle point between dutch bike and mountain bike

Wifebike 1.0 was a very upright dutch bike posture and i learned it was a mistake to combine a motor that could do 28mph with an upright position. Handling was sketch. Almost everyone was spooked by it and was never confident to hit the top speed. Most would stick below 20mph.

Nobody who got their hands on the early & fully tuned version of Super Hiryuu had trouble with the handling and they would always blast it at full speed.



I find that leaning forward a bit, when you have an upright position, improves the handling because you can leverage the front wheel better with your upper body.

I might actually lower the handlebars further in her ideal position and be sort of 66% mountainbike, 33% dutch cruiser. If that's comfortable, that's the sweet spot between confident handling and comfort we want to hit.

I like when the seat is raised to my height, it has sportbike positioning. I will enjoy testing it, even in acoustic bike mode

 

[E-HP]

I might actually lower the handlebars further in her ideal position and be sort of 66% mountainbike, 33% dutch cruiser. If that's comfortable, that's the sweet spot between confident handling and comfort we want to hit.

Handlebars are an individual preference thing. Height and distance/reach are important, but I find that sweep is way up there when it comes to comfort, especially for the wrists. It took a while for me to find the right bars, so I have 3 good bad bars in my parts box. Does she have a pedal bike that she likes riding? Funny that when I was doing a lot of mountain biking, my preference was a straight bars and leaning forward, and slightly narrow to get through trails with a lot of brush. Now I like a good amount of sweep, a little wider, and upright.

 

[neptronix]

Yeah, we'll have to find out what her preferences are because she hasn't been on a bike for a long while like most Utahns, lol.

That's why i think we should start at what i've found to be ideal for high speed purposes and adjust from there.
I do know that she has an unusually narrow gait and would probably feel good with one of my narrow ( 100-110mm ) BBs.

I've never thought about handlebar sweep, i tend to like a mountain bike-y or MX handlebar. Can you show me your most comfortable handlebar you use for high speed duty?

 

[E-HP]

Yeah, we'll have to find out what her preferences are because she hasn't been on a bike for a long while like most Utahns, lol.

That's why i think we should start at what i've found to be ideal for high speed purposes and adjust from there.
I do know that she has an unusually narrow gait and would probably feel good with one of my narrow ( 100-110mm ) BBs.

I've never thought about handlebar sweep, i tend to like a mountain bike-y or MX handlebar. Can you show me your most comfortable handlebar you use for high speed duty?

Well my normal riding isn't high speed, so the handlebars reflect that. This is where I ended up. I started out pretty flat with very little sweep, and added height and a little more sweep, which feels better when sitting upright. The problem was, my mind kept saying I liked straight bars, which I do when leaning forward, so I didn't go for a lot of sweep initially, hence the 3 bars.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B074YYNWDM/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I'd take her to a bike shop to "test bikes", but really for testing bars, lol.

 

[neptronix]

You talkin' about these badboys?



Funny how when you start thinking about a comfortable, good handling electric bike, it turns out that adapting ideas from the motorcycle work out so well.

 

[Chalo]

Zoom "Cruiser", Dimension "Urban Cruiser", and Sunlite "North Road" bars are all good options. None of them are cruiser bars in the American sense of that term. They're all roadster bars in the British sense of that term.

 

[neptronix]

What's your opinion on how the cornering/handling is with bars like that?

It's my understanding that wider is better so you can increase leverage of the upper body. That's why MTBs tend to have super wide bars.

This bike will see mostly street but some very mild offroading. I would like to to have a very confident feel.

 

[Chalo]

What's your opinion on how the cornering/handling is with bars like that?

It's my understanding that wider is better so you can increase leverage of the upper body. That's why MTBs tend to have super wide bars.

This bike will see mostly street but some very mild offroading. I would like to to have a very confident feel.

Well, that bar bend is proven in the very very long term, like before decent pavement was a thing. Huge 750-800mm wide MTB bars are an outlier and I expect will regress to the mean in due course. I remember a time when stock MTB handlebars were 585mm wide, and "serious" riders would lop an inch off each end.

There are two versions of the Zoom bar, 570mm and 595mm. They're the same except for how wide they're cut.

 

[E-HP]

Well, that bar bend is proven in the very very long term, like before decent pavement was a thing. Huge 750-800mm wide MTB bars are an outlier and I expect will regress to the mean in due course. I remember a time when stock MTB handlebars were 585mm wide, and "serious" riders would lop an inch off each end.

There are two versions of the Zoom bar, 570mm and 595mm. They're the same except for how wide they're cut.

Sometimes there are other factors that determine how wide or narrow you go. A lot of trails around here have gates to manage livestock, and a lot of multiuse trails have metal posts that to keep motor vehicles out, but are narrowly spaced. You sort of have to balance ideal for the rider vs. ideal for the ride.

 

[Gruesome]

Bikesdirect is still selling this bike (or one with the same name)!

If you are thinking about the BikeOn, ask Aram to check that the position of the mounting boss for the rear derailleur cable under the chain stay does not interfere with the motor torque bracket.

For bicycle ergonomics & proper adjustment I found this series of articles very informative. I just checked google translate, and it seems it does not muck them up too badly. This lady seems to know what she is talking about. I found the part about working angles, and in particular about the knee working angle and also about proper upper arm-to-spine angle and resulting shoulder/neck positioning eye opening.
bicycle ergonomics:
part I Grundlagen der Fahrradergonomie – Teil 1 | Fahrradzukunft 34
part II Grundlagen der Fahrradergonomie – Teil 2 | Fahrradzukunft 35
part III Grundlagen der Fahrradergonomie – Teil 3 | Fahrradzukunft 36

 

[neptronix]

595mm version of that handlebar sounds appealing as an ergonomics upgrade, i think that deserves to be on the parts list.

Bikesdirect is still selling this bike (or one with the same name)! If you are thinking about the BikeOn, ask Aram to check that the position of the mounting boss for the rear derailleur cable under the chain stay does not interfere with the motor torque bracket.

Wow they still have some!

For bicycle ergonomics I found this series of articles very informative. I just checked google translate, and it seems it does not muck them up too badly. This lady really seems to know what she is talking about.

Absolute gold, i will read this and apply it!

 

[eMark]

​

"The sitting position is optimized bit by bit: the back muscles are active, the shoulders fall forward in a relaxed manner, the back and neck line are improved and relaxed" (translated from article with German text).

Likely a Harley dude in a pickup (while passing me) yelled out - "raise up the handle bar" as if my adult etrike should resemble a customized Harley with high handle bar grips. This following photo "what may look kool" as in this photo of an adult etrike isn't my riding style ...

​

One reason may be an upright sitting position for back lumbar support when riding an adult etrike. The back support feels good pressing against my lower lumbar back. The ideal handle bar grip height for me is still with my arms at a downward incline (NOT level or upward) with the handle bar column as low as possible (NOT like in this photo). I actually bent the back seat support slightly forward to benefit from the lumbar back rest support.

 

[neptronix]

Some progress so far.. went to a taller, wide seat with a ton of gel and elastomers.
The bike is just barely tall enough for me to ride now as a result. That's good, i'd like to make sure it's well tuned in.

Replaced a number of rusty bits with used ones sitting in the parts pile. Tuned both derailleurs to perfection. New Chain. New kool stop brake pads.

The bike no longer carries the aura of neglect

I attempted to loosen up the front fork and rear seatpost, but they are still too hard. There's a decent amount of stiction also.
I would say the ride quality is ok at regular pedaling speeds but the bike would feel rickety at 20mph when motorized.



It could use my hand-me-down Suntour NCX seat post and an air fork up front.
And i just barely crossed 248lbs so i'm just under the weight limit for a Thudbuster LT, so it's time to order one!

Honestly, the bike is nice to ride as an acoustic; i got up to a nice speed just pedaling as well. I was tempted to go on a long ride, but the air is thick with smoke.

I'd like to implement some tricks from Mini Miryuu and use a smaller rear wheel ( 29" down to 27.5" ) so that we can get something like a 27.5" x 1.75" rear tire and run it at 20-25 PSI for additional comfort.

This will drop the rear end a hair, then we will use a 29 x 2.0 up front to raise the frontend.. and now we are more crank forward and have additional rake for better handling at the top speed of 25mph.

To accomplish this and retain the mechanical brakes ( safety above all here ), i plan to use this little device:



The bike is currently 35lbs, so added weight is a concern.

As for motors, a bikeOn kit is appealing as it's only 4lbs. But for another 3lbs against the weight budget, i can get a Shengyi SX2 for $700 less.



Using a 48v 14.5ah battery and a SX2, we would add 16lbs of weight.. making the bike around 51lbs. There's a few pounds to take off the bike itself.. which would easily be eaten up by the weight of the heavy tires i'm about to put on.

I dunno, Mini Hiryuu is something to the tune of 65-70lbs. 51lbs for this bike isn't too bad considering that we're comfymaxxing it.

 

[neptronix]

So I measured the lady.

She is almost the exact same proportions as me, i just have proportionally longer arms.
That means she doesn't need the huge reach i require.

per this thread, i bought a Motobecane 300HT and a Gravity Basecamp and decided to return the motobecane because it had 1inch shorter reach & i needed that inch!
BSOs: Bikesdirect Motobecane 300HT or Gravity Basecamp? Unboxed on pg. 2

..but the 300HT had much nicer components and wouldn't have needed so much junky ones swapped out!

I believe the Motobecane 300HTW @ 18 inches would be the largest bike we could put her on and still have space for *at least* a Suntour NCX when she is sitting on it. It looks like it will fit a large size shark pack in the frame with a lot less effort too.



Looks like the difference of a Shengyi in torque output in a 24" vs 27.5" is substantial. Enough to make the difference between this small motor overheating vs not.



I will check to see if these brake extenders can handle going from 26" to 24" on mini hiryuu and provide acceptable braking before making the bike choice. I want to not run regen on this bike so that we have plenty of thermal headroom as this motor will get beat on by our hilly terrain & occasional blasts of wind. I think we have an allright safety buffer here.

 

[E-HP]

So I measured the lady.

She is almost the exact same proportions as me, i just have proportionally longer arms.
That means she doesn't need the huge reach i require.

per this thread, i bought a Motobecane 300HT and a Gravity Basecamp and decided to return the motobecane because it had 1inch shorter reach & i needed that inch!
BSOs: Bikesdirect Motobecane 300HT or Gravity Basecamp? Unboxed on pg. 2

..but the 300HT had much nicer components and wouldn't have needed so much junky ones swapped out!

Wait. So the original dumpster find is out, and replaced with a new bike? There's some elements of these two statements that lead me to believe you may be approaching this wife build in the same manner I've been planning my wife build, so it works for me if she doesn't end up using it much.

" i just have proportionally longer arms.
That means she doesn't need the huge reach i require."

"decided to return the motobecane because it had 1inch shorter reach & i needed that inch!"

 

[neptronix]

Yeah, the original Motobecane HT300 was for me, but i liked the cheaper gravity basecamp ( despite it's crappier components ) for mini hiryuu because it had the biggest wheelbase i could get in that size, and still fit a suspension seatpost.

Going to the 26er HT300W does work better for ME; i get to reuse the squadron of 26"/24" tires i purchased for testing, finding a lightly used but nice quality air fork for a 26" shouldn't be hard, and virtually every part between our bikes is exchangeable, including motors.

You know what, i'm so hooked on running a smaller rear wheel on bikes now. That small rear drop makes it much easier to stay in the saddle at stops by using your leg as a kickstand. That and the extra torque.

 

[E-HP]

I won't be going back to 26" anytime soon. But I'm not ready to go to 20" yet. My current plan is to go with 20" for my wife's bike (with the ability to turn the power up if I end up riding it, lol).

 

[neptronix]

Try 22" it might just have enough height with a 2.5" tire that you don't run into pedals hitting the ground issues. You can get BMX tires in that size, as well as 18" light duty moped tires.

The only negative is that the tire's outer bulge runs right in line with vbrake posts on a bike at that size. You'll need to cut them off and use regen only for the rear, or disc, in order for it to work.

20" was an unhappy experience for me. I run 175mm cranks and had to go to 165mm, even with a big 16 x 2.75" motorcycle tire on the rim, and a tall fork.

 

[E-HP]

Try 22" it might just have enough height with a 2.5" tire that you don't run into pedals hitting the ground issues. You can get BMX tires in that size, as well as 18" light duty moped tires.

The only negative is that the tire's outer bulge runs right in line with vbrake posts on a bike at that size. You'll need to cut them off and use regen only for the rear, or disc, in order for it to work.

20" was an unhappy experience for me. I run 175mm cranks and had to go to 165mm, even with a big 16 x 2.75" motorcycle tire on the rim, and a tall fork.

Good to know, in case I want to go with 22" when I relace my current hub. My frame is pretty wide in both the seat stay and chain stay clearance.
For the wife, I'm still planning on starting with a 24" and putting on 20" wheels. I can go shorter on the cranks, since she's short and will have assist. In husband mode, I won't be pedaling much. Fast rear hub, running 60V, detuned via the CA for the wife preset, and unlimited for the husband preset.

 

[neptronix]

Been using the motobecane as a pedal bike lately for cardio gains. Here's me trying a 26" x 1.95" rear to try to increase the crank forwardness, which is lacking.. the center of my foot wants to contact the pedal despite having the seat super high.



With the 26" rear, i just barely get the front of my foot on the pedal enough to have a powerful stroke. But i'm hanging off the edge of the seat to get it, with the seat adjusted all the way back. An extra inch of suspension gain in the front wouldn't be enough to fix it.



What a bummer!

Looking at the Motobecane HT300, i'm noticing that it's cheaper alternative, the Gravity basecamp, has a much more normal angle from crank to the seat tube, whereas the motobecane 26" MTB also has a seat tube angle seemingly designed only for people with short feet.

Okay, i'm gonna sell the rehabbed bike for a tiny profit and it looks like we're building a smaller version of Mini Hiryuu!

 

[Chalo]

More moto-friendly geometry, would still have adequate BB height with 26" wheels, or 24" rear/27.5" front. 24" rear could buy you latitude to fit a suspension fork:

Save up to 60% off new Super Hybrid Comfort Fitness Bikes - Gravity X-Rod 7 | Save up to 60% off bikes

Commuter, Lifestyle, Flat Bar Hybrid and Road Bikes with V Brakes - The new Gravity X-Rod 7 is just the bike for the rider wanting the performance of an aluminum frame, coupled with the comfort of a CrMo fork dealing with a budget with powerful V Brakes

www.bikesdirect.com

Looks like maybe no disc tabs, so only e-brakes rear if messing with wheel sizes.

EDIT: I see you're looking at geared motors. So that fouls the rear wheel diameter swap. Still might be okay with original wheel diameter.

 

[99t4]

Looking at the Motobecane HT300, i'm noticing that it's cheaper alternative, the Gravity basecamp, has a much more normal angle from crank to the seat tube, whereas the motobecane 26" MTB also has a seat tube angle seemingly designed only for people with short feet.

Not so much designed for short feet, but seat tube angle is part of the larger combination of frame angles and dimensions to arrive at the desired handling/fit/wheelbase/style/etc. characteristics. This bike is clearly too small for you.
Chris Porter's GeoMetron G1 Editorial & Podcast Pitching Forward: The Impact of Steep Seat Tubes

Okay, i'm gonna sell the rehabbed bike for a tiny profit and it looks like we're building a smaller version of Mini Hiryuu!

Wasn't this bike supposed to be for your wife? It didn't work for her?

 

[neptronix]

Not so much designed for short feet, but seat tube angle is part of the larger combination of frame angles and dimensions to arrive at the desired handling/fit/wheelbase/style/etc. characteristics. This bike is clearly too small for you.
Chris Porter's GeoMetron G1 Editorial & Podcast Pitching Forward: The Impact of Steep Seat Tubes

Good article.
I have fit bikes smaller than this before and not had this problem with my mid-foot contacting the pedal like this.
This bike seems particularly steep. I need those pedals forward 1-2 inches after maximizing the adjustment of everything.
https://nsmb.com/articles/pitching-forward-impact-steep-seat-tubes/

Wasn't this bike supposed to be for your wife? It didn't work for her?

Yeah. It was.

Pros:
+ It was free
+ With some cleanup, it could be a nice bike.

Cons:
- Crank forwardness might still be too little for her. Our feet are almost the same length.
- I have a surplus of 24"/26" motor/acoustic wheels and tires i'd like to make use of.
- Battery mounting situation is suboptimal ( possible to overcome ).
- 27.5" is the smallest we can go in the rear; if we want to really optimize power to weight ratio, we'd use a 24" in the rear.
- My lady stated she likes mountain bikes better, and her favorite color is red.

Just not the right bike!