Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

UtahPete

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Where ?….When ?

“I'm certainly not going to convince you that what is actually happening in the world is actually happening.”…..

I see what is happening Jack, but I conclude differently to you
I cannot understand how anybody of average intelegence can not accept the published data that clearly shows how every country that has reduced fossil fuel generation and installed significant Wind and Solar, has resulted in both abnormal increases in power costs and reduced reliability of supply.
Further, the significance of high energy costs on the increasing costs of living….most all commodities…is obvious, concerning, and cannot be ignored.
What published data?
 

JackFlorey

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Nuclear power.
Nuclear power is great. But it is also, by far, the most expensive power we have, and it takes 20 years to build a new plant, from initial planning to first power output. So for the near term we are going to need something faster/cheaper. (We should also stop retiring old nuclear plants, which fortunately we are now realizing.)

And who knows? Maybe SMR's, PBMR's or MSR's will prove themselves and become cheaper and easier to install. Heck, maybe even the Gen IV reactors will come down in price. But all that takes research, time and money.
 

Hillhater

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Even if you're right (you're not), so what?
So what ?
..it verifies the fact that every state/ country that has added a significant % of Wind &solar to it utility supply, has seen a greater cost increase than those that still rely on Fossil thermal supply.
A fact that many here wish not to accept !
PS.. to help your perception of reality…
you should also check similar data for those other leading RE proponents, such as.. UK, Germany, Australia, Denmark, etc.
 

UtahPete

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So what ?
..it verifies the fact that every state/ country that has added a significant % of Wind &solar to it utility supply, has seen a greater cost increase than those that still rely on Fossil thermal supply.
A fact that many here wish not to accept !
PS.. to help your perception of reality…
you should also check similar data for those other leading RE proponents, such as.. UK, Germany, Australia, Denmark, etc.
It doesn't verify anything, except you choose your 'facts' to suit your preferred narrative.
 

UtahPete

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Nuclear power is great. But it is also, by far, the most expensive power we have, and it takes 20 years to build a new plant, from initial planning to first power output. So for the near term we are going to need something faster/cheaper. (We should also stop retiring old nuclear plants, which fortunately we are now realizing.)

And who knows? Maybe SMR's, PBMR's or MSR's will prove themselves and become cheaper and easier to install. Heck, maybe even the Gen IV reactors will come down in price. But all that takes research, time and money.
It's worked for the US Navy and Europe for over 50 years. When all costs are considered, nuclear is not the most expensive.
 

Hillhater

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I knew you would intentionally not get it. It's all good; renewables will happen without your support.
What i got Jack, was a bunch of personal comments from individuals trying to predict the future.!….
….as compared to a overwhelming reposit of factual data from 20+ years of operational Wind & Solar utility installations around the world.,
 

Hillhater

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When all costs are considered, nuclear is not the most expensive.
France, who have one of the highest % of Nuclear generation (78%) in their utility supply, also happen to have the lowest cost of power and the lowest CO2 emissions per MWh in the developed western Europe.👍
 
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Hillhater

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Palisades nuclear power plant lookin' to become the first recommissioned nuke in U.S. history​

…Construction of the 432-acre Palisades site began in 1967 and was completed THREE years later. !
 

JackFlorey

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It's worked for the US Navy and Europe for over 50 years.
Absolutely. When you have a blank check and/or 50 years, it's a great source of energy. If you are cost constrained and want power within a few years, not so much.
When all costs are considered, nuclear is not the most expensive.
The LCOE (levelized cost of energy) takes all costs into account - the cost of money to get the loan, the fuel cost, the operational costs etc. Here are some numbers from the latest Apr 2023 Lazard report: (these are the unsubsidized numbers in $ per megawatt-hour)


Community solar $49-185
Grid scale solar $24-96
Grid scale solar + storage $46-102

Onshore wind $24-75
Offshore wind $72-140

Gas CCS $39-101
Gas peaking $115-221

Coal $68-166

Nuclear $141-221
 

Hillhater

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The LCOE (levelized cost of energy) takes all costs into account
……which never seem able to explain why the real cost of electricity always increases as more Wind and Solar is introduced to the utility supply of every country/state that been forced to reduce its FFuel use. ?
 

nicobie

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France, has probably the highest % of Nuclear generation in its grid, and also magicly has one of the lowest retail electricity costs in Europe, and probably the western world.
It also has a very low CO2 /MWh figure .
That is just not true. In May this year France's cost was .220 euro kW/h. When I paid my bill yesterday my cost was $.14

Don't believe me, Google it. I will post my bill if you wish.
 

Hillhater

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That is just not true. In May this year France's cost was .220 euro kW/h. When I paid my bill yesterday my cost was $.14

Don't believe me, Google it. I will post my bill if you wish.
I believe you !
BUT…you should understand that individual examples are not representitive of your State Average cost, like that of France which you are comparing to.
so why dont you google the AVERAGE cost of electricity in California with its prized Solar and Wind generation supply…..and compare that to France !
 
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Hillhater

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you must have a different “google” to mine…or create your own results ?
The official government reference site..
Electric Power Monthly - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)
lists California average electricity cost at 31.22c/kWh…(june 23)
..up from 28.96 c/kWh.. (june 22)

..and “findenergy” site listed this as the 2021 costs…
California's Electricity Prices and Usage
Customers in California are faced with a higher residential electricity rate than many people in the United States, with an average state electric rate of 26.43 cents per kilowatt hour compared to the United States average price of 15.72 cents.

..And this site …
49A094BC-0210-4EC7-9176-198DE9CEF599.jpeg
 
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nicobie

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No HH It came straight from google. I can pick and choose my results just as well as you.

I can't believe I got sucked into this thread. I've been trying to avoid it for the last 7 years.

There is no way to convince HH of the error of his ways and I'm not going to succeed either. :mrgreen:

Carry on mate...
 

Hillhater

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No HH It came straight from google. .

There is no way to convince HH of the error of his ways and I'm not going to succeed either. :mrgreen:

Carry on mate...
Google is not a “source”,….its just a search tool which the user has to select the most reputable data source from.
So, do you even know what the source of the data you quoted was ?
I find it difficult to question the data from the US Energy Information Administration (EIA)….or the multitude of other sources which record similar costs.
I have plenty of “errors in my ways”,…but this data and the implications deduced from it , are not !
California has an average retail electricity cost almost double the national US average cost……and higher than France !
 
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UtahPete

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California has an average retail electricity cost almost double the national US average cost……and higher than France !
Enron didn't help any. Neither did sticking ratepayers with the bill for multibillion dollar settlements and fines for wildfires and pipeline explosions that only caused a few lawyers to become even more wealthy.
 
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JackFlorey

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There is no way to convince HH of the error of his ways and I'm not going to succeed either.
Nope. Fortunately no one needs to do that; the changeover to renewables is going to happen no matter what his political beliefs are.
 

Hillhater

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…….; the changeover to renewables is going to happen no matter what his political beliefs are.
What has “political beliefs” got to do with any of this ?
..but it is telling that YOU think there is a political angle !!
ALL politicians are Fwits on this situation. !
..and sure, the transition to renewables will continue whilst it is financially advantageous to the installers, but it will reach a point whereboth technical, operational and social problems limit its progress. ..( blackouts, demand management, unafordable power costs, etc)
Reality is a great leveler of any idealistic belief.
 
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Chalo

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JackFlorey

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What has “political beliefs” got to do with any of this ?
..but it is telling that YOU think there is a political angle !!
Your own words in this very thread:

Power supply, and electricity generation are totally entwined with Politics,
It is impossible to understand one without rubbing up against the other.
But the point was....Biden deliberately shut down one oil pipeline for popularity,...then within days cried “Foul” when another party shut down a similar oil pipeline. .


Perhaps avoid attacking people for what you yourself do? Your political agenda here has been clear from day one, and you embed it in many of your posts.

You can have any political agenda you want, of course. Maybe start another thread for that agenda.

and shure the transition to renewables will continue whilst it is financially advantageous to the installers, but it will reach a point whereboth technical, operational and social problems limit its progress.

I've heard that a dozen times since 2005. Has never come to pass. Just as "experts" in the 1970s said that civilization would collapse due to famines within ten years. Technology moves on.
 
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