BATTERY or WELDING MACHINE?

LOWRACER

100 W
Joined
Mar 20, 2010
Messages
193
Location
Luxembourg
My new LiPO battery is ready now!
It has got enormous amounts of energy reserves :twisted:
Finally there's a strange testing method......

[youtube]Zl9ACAbocZ0[/youtube]
 
Nice!

I've heard of 4x4 guys doing that with car batteries before, but that's the first time I've ever seen someone do it with Lithium. :) Nice!
 
Very nice looking pack ...I have just one question...what happens when one of those cells shits itself, it would be impossible to pull the pack apart to replace it if that's Sikaflex (or similar) that you have used to stick them all together...can you easily just 'by pass' the cell group the dread cell is in?

KiM
 
This guy attempts more than I would even think of trying.

Are those all controllers in there on top of the battery? Or BMS?

What the heck is all that stuff?

Katou
 
The little boards put on the 3 cell sets are paralleling boards, similar to the stuff Cell-man's thread about A123 pouch cells show for hooking those up. Later he's got thick bars to series those sets, I think.

The little electronics boards that were moisture-sensitive are BMS boards, LVC and presumably HVC with balancing controls.

THe gold aluminum-encased bars are almost certainly the balancing shunting resistors.

The caps I'm not sure of the purpose of (since normally those would only go on the controller end, as they shouldn't be needed on the battery end of things).
 
katou said:
This guy attempts more than I would even think of trying.

Are those all controllers in there on top of the battery? Or BMS?

What the heck is all that stuff?

Katou


I have got 20 LiPO packs(1pack=3cells) and 20 balancers mounted on a heatsink with thermal compound.
The balancers are in a compact SMD layout with power stage FET and 25Watt / 4.7Ohm resistor.
It needed an air circulation and must be cooled! In case of a high recouperation current it will be very hot!!!
So the balancer section has got a space from 1cm to LiPO-cells, there's no thermal connection to the LiPO cells.
To check the temperature of the cell I have a thermo on the left side.
 
AussieJester said:
Very nice looking pack ...I have just one question...what happens when one of those cells shits itself, it would be impossible to pull the pack apart to replace it if that's Sikaflex (or similar) that you have used to stick them all together...can you easily just 'by pass' the cell group the dread cell is in?

KiM


Yes, I know what you mean.....
But in my vehicle there are vibrations & shocks. To avoid short circuits, the "Sikaflex" is the 100% solution for ever.
Only one short circuit into the battery everything burn down in seconds, 1st the batt, 2nd the bike and 3rd me too!
 
I didn't know battery building could be so gangstar! :twisted:

That's quite the pack you have built, any way of showing what it will be going in? Only 36 volts, or will it have a sister to go 72 volt?
 
liveforphysics said:
Nice!

I've heard of 4x4 guys doing that with car batteries before, but that's the first time I've ever seen someone do it with Lithium. :) Nice!


Yes, I know that... But only with (PB) Lead-Acid-Batteries.
It's for a "wake up" with high Amps to crack the sulfation!
 
etard said:
I didn't know battery building could be so gangstar! :twisted:

That's quite the pack you have built, any way of showing what it will be going in? Only 36 volts, or will it have a sister to go 72 volt?


Standing in the vid...
LIPO 37V/27Ah/66C/1000Wh
 
freeking awesome! your my new battery hero :twisted: .
sorry- you know who you guys are :lol: .
 
Where did you get the electronics? BMS, parallel boards etc.

And perhaps more importantly, how did you figure out how to make this? Your result seems very, very professional. Almost like you build electric cars for a living. Hmmm??

Awesome work, totally raises the bar on massive, ultra-compact energy.

Way to go,

Katou
 
katou said:
Where did you get the electronics? BMS, parallel boards etc.

And perhaps more importantly, how did you figure out how to make this? Your result seems very, very professional. Almost like you build electric cars for a living. Hmmm??

Awesome work, totally raises the bar on massive, ultra-compact energy.

Way to go,

Katou

:roll:

Here you'll find the balancer electronics:
http://www.elv.de/output/controller.aspx?cid=74&detail=10&detail2=13693&flv=1&bereich=&marke=
Here you'll find the resistors:
http://www.pollin.de/shop/t/MjU4OTA5OTk-/Bauelemente/Passiv/Widerstaende/Hochlast_Widerstaende_DALE.html

The BMS are the Balancers into the battery, it protects every cell against overvoltage!
The undervoltage protection is programmed in the controller, it's exact 31.5Volts!
If the controller run on that voltage, it cut off the motor and show you a "fault".

If needed, I can plug in a charger, but normally the bike is self-sustaining.
The source are a pedal-alternator(3A), a solar roof(0.5A) and the recouperation(up to 15A).
The charger ist without electronic! It's nothing else than a 30V toroidal transformer, a bridge rectifier and a cap.
You can rectifier 30V AC/50Hz into 43V DC: Calculate 30Vx1.42=42.6V that's ideal for 10 cells serial!!
The advantage, at first it has got high AMPs, if the voltage slowly ascending to the maximum it has only a few AMPs, so the LiPO cells are not run hot and have a longer live.
A fast charging I cannot recommend, it's possible with 54AMPs in about 30minutes, but then you need a 2500W charger and in nearly all cases the house gets dark.....


How to make it, that's my own idea. No, it's not for an electric car, it's for my little bike:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3SAFnheRJo
 
amberwolf said:
The little boards put on the 3 cell sets are paralleling boards, similar to the stuff Cell-man's thread about A123 pouch cells show for hooking those up. Later he's got thick bars to series those sets, I think.

The little electronics boards that were moisture-sensitive are BMS boards, LVC and presumably HVC with balancing controls.

THe gold aluminum-encased bars are almost certainly the balancing shunting resistors.

The caps I'm not sure of the purpose of (since normally those would only go on the controller end, as they shouldn't be needed on the battery end of things).


YES MASTER, you are right!!!

The caps are inside the battery, because I have the place there and I hasn't got the place into
my compact extern charger. So the charger has got only a toroidal transformer and a bridge rectifier. Another thing, If I made the caps into the charger, there are always different voltages from the battery and the charger. Everytime I plug it in, PooooFFFF, that kills every connector!
 
Hillhater said:
:shock: ..now, that is a SERIOUS soldering iron ! :eek:
..fueled by oxy-propane ??


YES MASTER! YOU ARE SERIOUS RIGHT!

BUT NOT SOLDERING IRON.....

WELDING IRON WITH AN 4mm WELDING-ELECTRODE, POWERED BY LITHIUM POLYMER BATTS!
 
Low racer,

The air spray is a nice idea to remove lead!!.. Normally we use vaccum.. and you use pressure.. I love that :wink:

The way i used before to remove lead is to suddenly hit the desk edge with the cell to make the liquid lead to drop... i know air pressure is better.

I love the big blinding flash in the welding part fo the video.. !.. I see multi kW blast!!

The balancer are simple and i never saw them on the internet... we usually use the Tppacks bms here for all the job.

btw.. The LVC might be the weak part of your desing since it dont monitor individual cells voltage and just monitor the pack voltage.

I think your charger desing is very simple and basic.... but tit is not CC-CV and might prolong the charging time. I mean a less powerfull charger WITH CC-CV should decrease the charging time. A simple toroidal with rectifier will charge but since it is not regulated the current will decrease as the pack voltage increase and charging time will increase too.

Why do you build a so nice and powerfull pack and just charge it with a too basic charger desing? to me it's a big risk to damage the pack. I already thought about that with toroidal too and it was discussed alot on E-S and it finally ended by explaining why it can be risky: the AC is a very unstable source.. the most stable parameter is frequency( depending on teh country you are...) and teh voltage can vary up to 8-10%.. and a lipo pack can not endure that. Also the measured RMS AC voltage is not constant because it might also have some HF spike or parasitic that your multimeter will not see but that might boost a bit the output voltage for few volts with few mA current so it could overvolt the pack... its, not a 100% fact but i already saw it happening

I think your capacitors are not necessary since it's just for charging.. so it's like charging with pulsated DC to 120Hz.. and should be ok without caps.

You work with EV parts like no one do and it's what make it impressive.

Your video are awsome and you do great work.. thanks for sharing!

Doc
 
LOWRACER said:
Hillhater said:
:shock: ..now, that is a SERIOUS soldering iron ! :eek:
..fueled by oxy-propane ??


YES MASTER! YOU ARE SERIOUS RIGHT!

BUT NOT SOLDERING IRON.....

WELDING IRON WITH AN 4mm WELDING-ELECTRODE, POWERED BY LITHIUM POLYMER BATTS!


No, I meant the tool you were using at 2:20 in that video.... HOT !
solderingtool.jpg
 
LOWRACER, i been meaning to ask since not only is the work brilliant but also your video editing, would you mind sharing what video editing software your using ?

Keep up the great work buddy very impressive stuff!

KiM
 
Hillhater said:
LOWRACER said:
Hillhater said:
:shock: ..now, that is a SERIOUS soldering iron ! :eek:
..fueled by oxy-propane ??


YES MASTER! YOU ARE SERIOUS RIGHT!

BUT NOT SOLDERING IRON.....

WELDING IRON WITH AN 4mm WELDING-ELECTRODE, POWERED BY LITHIUM POLYMER BATTS!


No, I meant the tool you were using at 2:20 in that video.... HOT !
solderingtool.jpg

:lol: :lol: :lol:
AHHH.... I'm soldering 8mm(diameter) brass sticks to the battery connector!
That doesn't work with a 20W soldering bolt, here you need a little bit more power.
This butane-propane powered soldering bolt has got 2500W and you can find it in the roofer's equipment!

Of course a hot thing... :twisted:
 
Im writing between your lines....
Doctorbass wrote:

The air spray is a nice idea to remove lead!!.. Normally we use vaccum.. and you use pressure.. I love that :wink:
But at first I clean the brass bolts(8mm) with the angle grinder, at 2nd I used "WD40"-spray and then I can remove the remains of soldering with compressed air!
The way i used before to remove lead is to suddenly hit the desk edge with the cell to make the liquid lead to drop... i know air pressure is better.
It's more to get the dissolved soldering remains away.

I love the big blinding flash in the welding part fo the video.. !.. I see multi kW blast!!
At first I'd tested the battery with 3 serial H4 auto-bulbs, so I can calculate exact the power and of course the time.
I'd connected it to high beam, here we have 60W on the H4. That makes 3x60W=180W. The batt has got 1000Wh, so it takes normally 5.5hours to take the batteries power. But there's still 34Volts...
:?:
Recharging, then I tested it with more H4 bulbs..... there's really no load!!! Then I decided to take the welding electrode.... POOOFFF!!!

The balancer are simple and i never saw them on the internet... we usually use the Tppacks bms here for all the job.
It's from a german electronic store: http://www.elv.de/output/controller.aspx?cid=74&detail=10&detail2=13693&flv=1&bereich=&marke=

btw.. The LVC might be the weak part of your desing since it dont monitor individual cells voltage and just monitor the pack voltage. I want to see the voltage of every cell at first, but I don't need it really. My decision, it's only a bicycle and not a F-16 jet fighter, I only need the overview!!! So I can see only the pack voltage in the cockpit.

I think your charger desing is very simple and basic.... but tit is not CC-CV and might prolong the charging time. I mean a less powerfull charger WITH CC-CV should decrease the charging time. A simple toroidal with rectifier will charge but since it is not regulated the current will decrease as the pack voltage increase and charging time will increase too.
I'd tested so much electronic chargers and 2 chargers are burned down. I must build on my charger all time! I decided to created my own charger, without electronics... processors... microcontrollers... Only a 230V plug and a 43V plug, ready!!

Why do you build a so nice and powerfull pack and just charge it with a too basic charger desing? to me it's a big risk to damage the pack. I already thought about that with toroidal too and it was discussed alot on E-S and it finally ended by explaining why it can be risky: the AC is a very unstable source.. the most stable parameter is frequency( depending on teh country you are...) and teh voltage can vary up to 8-10%.. and a lipo pack can not endure that. Also the measured RMS AC voltage is not constant because it might also have some HF spike or parasitic that your multimeter will not see but that might boost a bit the output voltage for few volts with few mA current so it could overvolt the pack... its, not a 100% fact but i already saw it happening
The AC is really exact here! I cannot overvolt the pack, because every balancer can handle about 25Watt and there are 20pieces. So in every recouperation brake I get in a short time high AMPs into the pack, that's a higher critical factor. "NORMALLY" I don't need a charger, it's only for an emergency situation!!!

I think your capacitors are not necessary since it's just for charging.. so it's like charging with pulsated DC to 120Hz.. and should be ok without caps.
Every charger has got into the ending a cap to smooth the residual ripple.

You work with EV parts like no one do and it's what make it impressive.
I'm working out a new system..... :lol: :lol: :lol:

Your video are awsome and you do great work.. thanks for sharing!
Thank you and of course thanks to endless-sphere (Homepage,servers etc...)

Doc
Lowracer
 
AussieJester said:
LOWRACER, i been meaning to ask since not only is the work brilliant but also your video editing, would you mind sharing what video editing software your using ?

Keep up the great work buddy very impressive stuff!

KiM



I'm using a simple and great program: MAGIX "Movies on CD&DVD 6"

And of course every music has got a copyright, so there are 1000s of video in YouTube without a sound,
here the music program to create your own music:
MAGIX "MusicMaker 2008 ProducerEdition"
 
Thanks for the link to the German website, lowracer.

There seems to be plenty to look at here: http://www.elv.de/Ladeger%C3%A4te/x.aspx/cid_74/detail_1/detail2_58 regarding battery management.

Jeremy
 
I still want to know, how did you learn all this stuff?

I'm not an idiot, and I'm still working on my first ebike and homebuilt battery.

You have built:

- a trike
- a LEANING trike
- which is electric
- you have done forced cooling on the hub motor
- built your own battery, including breaking down manufactured packs
- incorporated BMS into the pack
- integrated pedaling-recharge of battery
- enclosed your trike completely

Where did you learn to do all this stuff?

If you say that you're all self taught, I'm going to have to break something.

Katou
 
Jeremy Harris said:
Thanks for the link to the German website, lowracer.

There seems to be plenty to look at here: http://www.elv.de/Ladeger%C3%A4te/x.aspx/cid_74/detail_1/detail2_58 regarding battery management.

Jeremy


:lol: :lol: COOL STUFF! 8) 8) 8)
I've seen all you videos on YouTube, EXCELLENT! Great ideas and funky stuff!

Well, here in Luxembourg we have much choose with electronic shops in the neighborhood, germany&france are the frontrunners,
belgium&netherlands are magnificent only for recumbents&velomobiles.....

Before some years I'd taken the "ELV battery charger Center ALC 5000 Mobile", a complete kit including PC software.

http://www.elv.de/ELV-Akku-Lade-Center-ALC-5000-Mobile,-Komplettbausatz-inkl-PC-Software-Charge-Professional/x.aspx/cid_74/detail_10/detail2_14228/flv_/bereich_/marke_
A great device with nearly all functions. I need it to refresh LA-Batteries and to check out the capacity.
But it works only up to 30Volts, so for my 37V LiPO-Batt it's useless now..... :cry:
 
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