New Clean Propane Powered Scooter and Fun Kart

http://www.goped.com/go-gram.html

Hopefully buyers will be refilling cans.. I wouldn't mind one of those karts, looks like fun! How much?

Another chainsaw vehicle,...edit: propane MUCH better than gasoline in this application, read on.

Chainsaw vehicle eh? Tough crowd.

My chainsaw is electric btw..

spinningmagnets said:

Another chainsaw vehicle,

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I suppose aside from the bennifits of exersize in choosing an e-assisted bike, we are all here, at least in part, to show some concern for the enviornment

Yes....the ProPed is yet another internal combustion engine powered ride on thingy. But, IMO it is a huge step in the right direction as far as a power source for alternate transportation, and most asuradly not just "another chainsaw vehicle".

I apologise for sounding so dismissive. After some thought, I recall these tiny vehicles are gaining in popularity in places that have very expensive car parking to encourage bus/subway usage (Manhattan, Tokyo, Munich, London, etc). The 2-wheel fold-up GoPed might not be electric, but it can be carried on a bus, and the propane would smell better and leak less than a drippy gasoline model.

Propane is a kick-ass fuel.

120octane. Perfect atomization. Super clean, no scent (unless it has odor added).

It loves boost, and it loves very high compression ratios as well, which help it to make good power from small engines. I setup my racecar in college to be dual-fueled to run both propane and gasoline. Farm grade propane was $0.99 a gal

refilled propane does cost like 20$/ 20lbs according to another thread in another forum..; the carcynogenes and other mayor pollutants are reduced by more than 95% when using propane 4 stroke motors compared to gasoline 2 strokers; these is also a significant reduction in noise, not to mention there is no smell of gasoline in the trunk or office cupboard if you store the pro-ped in there.

a mayor downside ( which can be improved by using oil of a higher sae than 10w30 as suggested) is the oil change interval of 25 miles ( :keke: ) and the dispensable cans, most peeps will just buy them for 5 dollars a pice and throw away the old ones - except for campers and other people that allready have bigger tanks to refill out of.

one thing i´d like to know about propane, in case someone makes it to damage such a home-refilled can or the gas hose close the hot motor or when standing over a thrown-away cigarette on a stop sign - can/ will it blow up ?
I may be schizophrene about it and both my current and new (fromon november, yay spain) appartment are heated by natural gas so it should be safe but still there is a fear about gas i am not completely aware of since not fully in know about the "real" risks.

I think the major service items are:

change the 1.7 oz of oil every 25 hours,
check/clean air filter every 10 hours ( I would buy a spare filter for ease of service)
check spark plug every 25 hours,
Lube chain before every ride. Are you sure? maybe once a week.
but, checking rocker arm clearance every 25 hours, hmmm

so with a 30 minute ride to work, 30 minutes home, and having a 20lb to 1 pound propane recharge setup,
The daily routine would be about the same as an electric for charging-- swap tanks, check brakes, check oil;
weekly--check/swap air filter -lube chain;
and 30 minutes once a month to change oil, spark plug and check rocker arm but that means new rocker cover gasket.

Service manual:
http://www.goped.com/Products/proped/Proped_manual_09_v1.pdf

I have talked to people who have used propane, and the spark plugs stay very clean for a very long time, also the oil stays cleaner for longer. If you do remove the plug on occasion to check for carbon build-up or tip-erosion, be sure to put a tiny smear of anti-seize on the threads before reinstalling.

Add 50% more displacement to have the same power as gasoline. I haven't read about boosting with propane, sounds fun. Range is less than gasoline, but if you only need short range, propane has a lot going for it...

thakns for clarifying deardancer3,
i seemingly misplaced hours with miles when reading over it.

according to the experience propane-users made related with the oil staying usable for longer than on gasoline motors and the possibility to use better oil than sae 10w-30 as specified it may be even lesser.

if someone refills his cartridges on himself the "fuel" price can be roundabout 1 dollar per 100 miles, pretty good and competitive with light electrics.

i´d love to see municipla gardening services using these for transport of their staff, a airtire version with trailer, would that work out ( torque-wise) ?

Considering this new info i can´t wait to see a video or have someone posting a review.

Propane has minimal maintenance needs. Maybe 1/3rd the service interval of the same engine fueled on gasoline.

Manufactures list maintenance specs in hopes that the customer will do about 1/10th of what they recomend.

For example, my GSX-R 1000 says to "throughly inspect frame and forks for cracks, check tire pressure, brake pad and brake rotor thickness, coolant level, oil level, and to oil the chain before EVERY ride". Lol. In reality, I never oil a chain (i think its a bad thing to do on a proper sealed X ring chain), I check oil when I fuel up, and check other things maybe every 5,000 miles when I change oil.

My KTM actually instructs the user to service or replace the air filter every 10hours, along with the plug... You can rest assured that filter never got looked at until about 3 years of owning it when I ended up submerging the bike in a mud pit. (Bike turned out fine).

Gotta look at it this way. Any trip a person makes on that scooter is going to be about 100times better for the world than taking a car. Its not electric, but its still a darn good thing if it means less SUV's lugging people around.


I think its badass. I also think they could easily make as much or more power as the gas version if they built the engine around taking advantage of propanes great abilities. Even if its just a direct gas engine fit with propane, its only going to be down a max of 14% power over the gas version due to VE% drop from the fuel taking a larger volume, and displacing available air that would have filled the cylinder in the propanes place. Definately well worth it IMO.

And I found farm (non-road taxed) propane locally here for $1.80 a gal, which is about 6lbs if I remember right. I don't wana take the time to work the numbers, but it make be cheaper than the electricity to charge a battery pack. Here is something you guys might not know that shocked me when I first started running propane. Propane cost for your BBQ is about 50% road tax...

I like the scooter but with my experience with the bus and taking my electric scooter aboard, I'm pretty sure the majority wouldn't let a propane one on. It has the fact that it looks directly like a gasoline version going for it and also my particular bus line states "No flammable liquids" which propane would seem to qualify. Also, the space that thing takes up is impractical for bus use except for among the least populated and most spacious buses (Which, good luck finding one. Buses typically aren't "spacious" for things like cargo.).

However, it seems to be an excellent replacement for gasoline scooters. I also like the fact that it looks pretty light-weight, although my scooter is still lighter.

Well, actually, let's see.

My Scooter:
22 lb. base + 12 pounds of battery and ESC = 34 lbs. The scooter itself is still 22 lbs since I carry the rest in my backpack.

This scooter:
25.5 lbs + 2.03 lbs(16 oz canister) = 27.53 pounds. Definitely pretty light.

And my scooter and that scooter seem to have similar specs. At full throttle at 25 mph, mine can go about 14 miles while standing up (20 if you're aerodynamically positioned in a bending forward way although that hurts my back), while it'll go 25-30 miles at half throttle, whereas the propane scooter states 20 miles at half throttle and its top speed is 21 mph.

liveforphysics , I was hoping someone would say what you said.

d

now they should start offering bigger cartridge adaptors also for european seizes.

some appartment dwellers in the city may have issues with finding cheap propane, storing a refill tank in the appartment and be disallowed to take the scooter in the buildings, but in more rural areas and even abroads and away from accessible wall plug outlets this setup does have advantages.
Those that have no way to refill their used canisters ( how often can this safely be done ot one canister ?) will have to buy new canisters pretty often, dispense the old ones in the trash and have to haul the new spare canisters home or around if no fuel gauge is installed - i am hoping the less wary users will not get stranded way to often.
But thsince it only weights like 14 Kg hauling it upstairs is heaven comapred to a electric scooter

If it was available on a airtire setup, maybe even the sitdown-version "Riot", and maybe also as a retrofit kit for the GSR scooter lineup more people would use it in the more rural areas, this also applies to campers.

The currently offered neighbouthood-friendly Pro-cart with propane ( direct transaxle transmission on both wheels so a nice drifter) is allready nice, and the hardtire scooter can be smuggled into a bus easily if simply using a bag - no smell problems. Goped is selling these bags as a surplus.

Since there is also a "clamp" that allows to mount a alike electric Goped below a "Trevair" cushioned wheelchair the deck clamp could be offered for that customers, too - a wheelchair also allows for convenient storage of more than one spare gas cartridge.

dragonfire said:

But thsince it only weights like 14 Kg hauling it upstairs is heaven comapred to a electric scooter

If it was available on a airtire setup, maybe even the sitdown-version "Riot", and maybe also as a retrofit kit for the GSR scooter lineup more people would use it in the more rural areas, this also applies to campers.

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Hey, my electric weighs 10 kg.

Interesting, but I thought this one had air tires? Oh well, mine does.

I think this propane powered ProPed has Great potential as a practical, "clean and GREEN" form of alternate transportation. It may not meet the "need for speed" or the performance demands of the typical 'younger' GoPed user, but I think it harkens back to the original idea behind Steve Patmont inventing the GoPed in the first place nearly 25 years ago, and that was.....as an effeciant, lightweight and easily portable form of personal transportation to get from point A to point B. Perfect for pilots, boaters and campers.

And yes Steve...

Would you like a GSR Pro-Cruiser?

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I believe an air tired version is.....enevitable 8) I can already see a nice (renewable) Bamboo deck and a ProPed plate on the (my) drawing board :wink:

i love the idea that PMW is going this. going from an oil and fuel burning 2-stroke to a 4-stroke propane powered clean fuel vehicle is amazing in my book. i recently caught on to the EV scene and im all about it right now, but i still have that love for ICE engines. and according to liveforphysics post, the propane powered goped is possibly open to modifications. if i had the cash for one, i would totally be sold on this, but until then, in can only ride my goped sport with a 2-stroke polluting engine. good job and keep up the good work Mr. Patmont. i hope to see many more innovations from PMW in the future.

swbluto said:

Hey, my electric weighs 10 kg.

Interesting, but I thought this one had air tires? Oh well, mine does.

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you will have to run these small airtires with considerble pressure to minimize rollin resistance, the hardtire gopeds don´t have this problems and never get a flat.
if adding on the weight of the batteries in your backpack ( 10Kg is without batteries which makes it stealthy i assume ) the pro-GRS Sport with it´s 14 Kg is close-on, and Goped also does offer up a 8ah and 16ah Lipo version of a alike setup with a 750 watts/ 24v (130 amps max.; 20 mph@60amp. ) motor, called the "i-ped" which can keep up with that low weight, too - and does not require to carry and latch/ wire up a backpack all the time.

a propane powered ped can be smuggled into a Bus and subway alike an electric since it doesn´t smell, and a carry bag hides it from courious eyes if this is a point of concern.

that way ( propane) you wouldn´t have to spend more than 499 Dollars on the scooter, have the same power no matter what temperature or ah´s left, and could recharge by swapping out the cardridge in 30 seconds.


quite advantageous over most electric setups, avilable up from 499$ as a complete and ready-to run setup with 2 years warranty on the motor and drivetrain imo.




An airtire variant based on the allready existing GSR cruiser frame could be offered for like 200-250 dollars more and ad don only like 2 Kg of weight; 10" airtires with various threads available and beefy enough to not get caught in bumps and alike hazards of the street with disc brake or the sitdown minibike "Riot" with front and rear cidli/ Kanti-link suspension ( 12" travel at 1.10 meters wheelbase with antidive characteristics...) would still be below 40 lbs( 19 kg...).

if i was spotting the details right ( motor mount is somewhat hiddenon pics), it wouldn´t require a redesign of the existing parts to add this motor and tank onto these other variants of the product portfolio.

dragonfire said:

swbluto said:

Hey, my electric weighs 10 kg.

Interesting, but I thought this one had air tires? Oh well, mine does.

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you will have to run these small airtires with considerble pressure to minimize rollin resistance, the hardtire gopeds don´t have this problems and never get a flat.
if adding on the weight of the batteries in your backpack ( 10Kg is without batteries which makes it stealthy i assume ) the pro-GRS Sport with it´s 14 Kg is close-on, and Goped also does offer up a 8ah and 16ah Lipo version of a alike setup with a 750 watts/ 24v (130 amps max.; 20 mph@60amp. ) motor, called the "i-ped" which can keep up with that low weight, too - and does not require to carry and latch/ wire up a backpack all the time.

a propane powered ped can be smuggled into a Bus and subway alike an electric since it doesn´t smell, and a carry bag hides it from courious eyes if this is a point of concern.

that way ( propane) you wouldn´t have to spend more than 499 Dollars on the scooter, have the same power no matter what temperature or ah´s left, and could recharge by swapping out the cardridge in 30 seconds.


quite advantageous over most electric setups, avilable up from 499$ as a complete and ready-to run setup with 2 years warranty on the motor and drivetrain imo.




An airtire variant based on the allready existing GSR cruiser frame could be offered for like 200-250 dollars more and ad don only like 2 Kg of weight; 10" airtires with various threads available and beefy enough to not get caught in bumps and alike hazards of the street with disc brake or the sitdown minibike "Riot" with front and rear cidli/ Kanti-link suspension ( 12" travel at 1.10 meters wheelbase with antidive characteristics...) would still be below 40 lbs( 19 kg...).

if i was spotting the details right ( motor mount is somewhat hiddenon pics), it wouldn´t require a redesign of the existing parts to add this motor and tank onto these other variants of the product portfolio.

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For most commercial ready-to-go electric scooters, I'd agree with you there. The ones that are similar in price can have the same speed, but there'll be a definite difference in weight and range (They typically use lead, uggggg).

In regards to the smuggling, how effective that'll be will depend quite a bit on your locality, the curiosity of the bus drivers and your willingness and ability to lie. I know I wouldn't risk it in my area. A subway might be a bit easier to smuggle things aboard as they don't seem to have "interrogating" type of people for boarding but I don't have one of those available to me, so I wouldn't know.

Also, propane's vapor pressure seems to halve with a 15-20 C degree drop in temperature. I'm not sure if that would affect performance and/or range, but it seems it might affect cold weather performane/range. My battery is kept nice and warm in my back-pack, so it isn't really affected by cold weather (The tire pressure is... and possibly the motor, though the motor would just be slightly more efficient. ).

What I kind of wonder is if it might be possible to easily increase the capacity by using a larger propane cylinder.

Also, the lack of battery on the scooter would make it kind of stealthy except there are rather large black and red wire connectors leading out the back of the scooter, so I almost inevitably get the questions, "is that powered?","Is that motorized?", "Is that gas or electric?". While riding it, all bets are off. If a stand up scooter going 25 mph didn't give away already, then surely the wires leading out my backpack would.

dragonfire said:

24v (130 amps max.; 20 mph@60amp. ) motor

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Holy crap! It takes 60amps * >20 volts, > 1200 input watts to go 20 mph? Unreal! Mine takes about 30-35 amps at 24 volts to sustain 25 mph.

Like most gases stored in a compressed liquid state, propane's pressure in the bottle is greatly varied with temperature.

Fortunately, it makes no difference to an engine being powered by propane. The propane first must run to a liquid/vapor converter, which has a 2 stage pressure regulator on it, dropping down to 0.1psi(typically, some systems are higher/lower), and then to a "mixer", which is like a carburetor, except it's for combining the correct amount of propane with the volume of air passing through to ensure the correct ratio of optimal combustion.

As long as the tank has a drop of liquid propane left in it, the performance will be constant.

Swbluto- Why on earth don't you disguise the power cable? some shrink wrap at the least, or sew a simple nylon strap sandwiched on each side of the cable, so it appears as a carrying strap. Better yet, fasten the strap securely, and make sure the wires slip freely inside the strap and have plenty of slack inside so they would feel no strain, and then you could use the strap to also help pick the thing up.

swbluto said:

dragonfire said:

24v (130 amps max.; 20 mph@60amp. ) motor

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Holy crap! It takes 60amps * >20 volts, > 1200 input watts to go 20 mph? Unreal! Mine takes about 30-35 amps at 24 volts to sustain 25 mph.

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Mr Dragonfire's inaccuracies are only exceeded by his "know everything" dream.
In fairness, he's doing his best and thinks he does no harm, for which he is forgiven.
The electric GoPeds are as efficient as anything else out there.

well, the actual stats for most users that posted them up on the gopednation.com forum are in between 65 and 70 ah on acceleration ( flat concrete pavement) according to some posters on GPN, some others that use the cycle analyst claim it was 35 ah´s maximum on a flat.
i doubled the numbers unintentionally since i only recalled them in relevance to maximum battery drain related thereby, my bad.

I´m not sure how this may be related with a "know it all" attitude, i on my behalf am still willed and motivated to learn of mistakes.

dragonfire said:

I´m not sure how this may be related with a "know it all" attitude, i on my behalf am still willed and motivated to learn of mistakes. It´s somehow rude to react on this error in that way but in no way to questions posed related to product options and details in this thread ( and questions of others of a GPn-thread)

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You just hit the nail on the head my German....friend :wink: You are oblivious to the 'fact' that you consistantly make ASSumptions, ASSertions and suggestions about what 'you' think could or should be done for any number of situations. And in making your "suggestions" you very often post misleading and inaccurate information. So yes, you are correct. "You are not sure how.........?"