Conductivity improving grease project

Batteries, Chargers, and Battery Management Systems.
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liveforphysics   100 GW

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Conductivity improving grease project

Post by liveforphysics » Jul 12 2014 3:15pm

I mixed equal amounts of this grease:

http://www.americansealantsinc.com/wp-c ... i70pds.pdf

With this rolled graphene carbon nanotube material from OCSiAl in approximately equal masses.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hy_5k099tYc

I'm excited to measure it's effects on conductivity of clamped electrical connections. I will share my results with the forum, I'm just doing the tests as a fun project on my own time. My hope is that it may enable easy DIY pack designs like Snath's clever foam pressure on dimpled copper sheet designs to replace the needs for spot-welding equipment and/or damaging cells from over-heating them in pack assembly with solder.

My objective is not to achieve parity with a soldered joint, but surpass it's conductivity.
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spinningmagnets   100 GW

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Re: Conductivity improving grease project

Post by spinningmagnets » Jul 12 2014 4:50pm

This is a great idea, Luke. I look forward to the results. I think a tiny dab of this conductive grease will not only guarantee a great connection, I think it may reduce oxidation. Shiny copper will only turn a little brown with a very thin layer of oxidation...nothing severe, but...Also, since the ends of the cells and the copper dimples are not perfectly flat, it would only take a very tiny amount of this compound to fill the microscopic irregularities and guarantee a very solid connection on every single cell.

NIB means "New In Box", meaning loose cylindrical cells dropped into a housing.

riba2233's pack thread, with a graphic from (dogati) j3tch1u's similar project:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 74#p918674

Snath's NIB pack project:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 14&t=57810

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Re: Conductivity improving grease project

Post by snath » Jul 12 2014 6:17pm

Ok Luke, here's a candidate for your conductivity improving grease.

As I mentioned in this post http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 14&t=57810, i was planning on making a "stick battery" using these star-shaped bus bars:
Dimpled stars.jpg
Star bus bars with reverse dimples
Dimpled stars.jpg (13.29 KiB) Viewed 5586 times
.

Here are the bars in a 10s5p battery built up on a .5 inch PVC rod.
Stick battery.jpg
10s5p Stick Battery
Stick battery.jpg (9.26 KiB) Viewed 5586 times
The ends are .25 inch PVC and there's a .25 inch "anti-rotation rod" running the length of the battery in one of the grooves. The remaining grooves will be used to run power and balance leads.

This battery will go inside a 2.125 Inch OD exhaust tube. With a shrink wrap cladding, the battery will fit nicely. The tube will be the backbone of a Bridgestone Moulton-like bike that I'm building.
Bridgestone Moulton.jpg
Bridgestone Moulton
Bridgestone Moulton.jpg (11.94 KiB) Viewed 5586 times
I have most of the frame parts cut out and will start welding them up this week. Here's a picture of a Cannondale HeadShok fork that I modified with 3M epoxy and sleeves inside and out to fit the 16 inch wheels.
Headshok fork.jpg
Modified HeadShok
Headshok fork.jpg (11.17 KiB) Viewed 5586 times

John in CR   100 GW

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Re: Conductivity improving grease project

Post by John in CR » Jul 12 2014 10:44pm

I hope that grease maintains its viscosity (I think that's the right term) regardless of temperature. Otherwise what happens when it gets more liquid when it gets warm and starts running everywhere, like dripping a stream of salt water on your stuff?

I prefer the idea of an electrically conductive adhesive that does exactly the same thing (fills in the gaps with something conductive to improve on the clamped connection), but once set it's not moving.

I'm soon to have a bunch of clamped connections, so if my viewpoint needs an adjustment, now is a good time. If the grease thing works, then that will be good for some marine projects in the queue, and salt water with electrics scares the crap out of me.

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Chalo   100 GW

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Re: Conductivity improving grease project

Post by Chalo » Jul 12 2014 11:15pm

As an old-school sort of guy, my inclination would be to use a caustic electrical joint compound like Alcoa #2, mixed with as much powdered pure silver as I could mix in, along with plenty of fastener tension. Hopefully your prospective formula does better than that.
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Re: Conductivity improving grease project

Post by liveforphysics » Jul 12 2014 11:27pm

Chalo wrote:As an old-school sort of guy, my inclination would be to use a caustic electrical joint compound like Alcoa #2, mixed with as much powdered pure silver as I could mix in, along with plenty of fastener tension. Hopefully your prospective formula does better than that.
That approach works and is done.

If the rumors are true about what carbon nanotubes do for connection resistance, you will forget about silver. What Ive heard is that the tubes are so strong they pierce through oxide layers and things so well you, are embedding spears of superconducting (depending on who is testing it).
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Re: Conductivity improving grease project

Post by quamau » Jul 13 2014 4:18am

Well, viscosity is a property of fluids, and sure enough everything can be in a sense considered a fluid. However, with the asi70 grease paste being said by the spec sheet to "retain its consistency and properties" between 50°C and 200°C, I take it there is no need to measure its viscosity!

Overall, non-solder joints would be most welcome. Thread subscribed!

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Re: Conductivity improving grease project

Post by sardini » Jul 13 2014 6:39am

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_nan ... plications
Electrical cables and wires[edit]
Wires for carrying electrical current may be fabricated from pure nanotubes and nanotube-polymer composites. It has already been demonstrated that carbon nanotube wires can successfully be used for power or data transmission.[166] Recently small wires have been fabricated with specific conductivity exceeding copper and aluminum;[167][168] these cables are the highest conductivity carbon nanotube and also highest conductivity non-metal cables. Recently, composite of carbon nanotube and copper have been shown to exhibit nearly one hundred times higher current-carrying-capacity than pure copper or gold.[169] Significantly, the electrical conductivity of such a composite is similar to pure Cu. Thus, this Carbon nanotube-copper (CNT-Cu) composite possesses the highest observed current-carrying capacity among electrical conductors. Thus for a given cross-section of electrical conductor, the CNT-Cu composite can withstand and transport one hundred times higher current compared to metals such as copper and gold.

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Re: Conductivity improving grease project

Post by mvly » Jul 13 2014 10:18am

I have recent had a talk with some researcher (about a year ago) who was working on carbon nanotube as conductors and other uses. He said using a small strand, you can essentially replace a 12-14 gauge copper wire. I thought this is great, considering most hub motor have weaker axle and such caused by thick wires coming out of the hub end. If we can replace it with thin carbon nano tubes and super insulation up to 800C temperature, then we got great hub motor with great power inputs without compromising the structure of the axle itself.

The problem? COST. He said to produce a small quantity of this was costly (in the millions I guess). I asked "what if I only need a few feet of these thing at a certain size? He still said the cost would be astronomical compared to copper. His point? Use copper for now.

We will have to wait for economy of scale and better, lower cost production method before we can see these replacing copper. Once again it is one of those research that is at least 5-10 years out.

But this grease thing is great to protect those solder joints and help with conducting. If we can get such things, making batteries not be too difficult.

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Re: Conductivity improving grease project

Post by agniusm » Jul 13 2014 10:34am

mvly wrote:I have recent had a talk with some researcher (about a year ago) who was working on carbon nanotube as conductors and other uses. He said using a small strand, you can essentially replace a 12-14 gauge copper wire. I thought this is great, considering most hub motor have weaker axle and such caused by thick wires coming out of the hub end. If we can replace it with thin carbon nano tubes and super insulation up to 800C temperature, then we got great hub motor with great power inputs without compromising the structure of the axle itself.

The problem? COST. He said to produce a small quantity of this was costly (in the millions I guess). I asked "what if I only need a few feet of these thing at a certain size? He still said the cost would be astronomical compared to copper. His point? Use copper for now.

We will have to wait for economy of scale and better, lower cost production method before we can see these replacing copper. Once again it is one of those research that is at least 5-10 years out.

But this grease thing is great to protect those solder joints and help with conducting. If we can get such things, making batteries not be too difficult.
I think Luke got the carbon n stuff if you watched the video. I wander what was the cost and for what quantities?

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Re: Conductivity improving grease project

Post by mvly » Jul 13 2014 11:32am

I am going to practice wait and see approach. Too many news about break through these day. We will have to see what Luke can come up with and to see if it is reasonably priced. Usually with these break through the inventors want some price for it which is ultimately passed to the consumer.

Heck if this is cheap enough, replace the the winding with these and increase motor efficency. Less heat and we can go higher power!

Here is the price:
http://en.ocsial.com/product/tuball

Looks like you can get samples too if you have good application.

Anyone want a group buy of this material? LOL.

1-10KG @ $5 USD per gram. So $5K per kg. But that might be sufficient to make a kick ass small high efficeny motor! Not sure how much of these thing will make conductivity enough for our application.

Good find Luke.

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liveforphysics   100 GW

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Re: Conductivity improving grease project

Post by liveforphysics » Jul 13 2014 1:18pm

Both materials are cheap that I'm using.

A tube of grease that would do a lifetime of hobby battery building would be ~$<20 in materials to make.
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Re: Conductivity improving grease project

Post by Chalo » Jul 13 2014 3:00pm

Oh by the way! You know this, but...

When working with nanotube materials, use gloves. Wear a respirator, or else have strong dust evacuation. At the size scale of subcellular structures, carbon nanotubes make asbestos fibers seem crude and benign.
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Re: Conductivity improving grease project

Post by Arlo1 » Jul 13 2014 6:08pm

Thanks for posting this Luke.
So companies should be selling Nano grease.
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Re: Conductivity improving grease project

Post by kfong » Jul 13 2014 6:59pm

Got a sample on order, please read the material safety sheet before playing with this stuff. Treat it like hazardous material, even the safety sheet specifies unknown effects. We are playing with a material so new and due to the size, it's create a new level of pollution if dumped into the waste stream. Cost of advancement :roll:

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Re: Conductivity improving grease project

Post by hydro-one » Jul 13 2014 7:26pm

very interesting! superconductors! carbon nanotubes, isnt the synthesis for this a simple acetylene torch running a sooty flame and they just catch the soot?? or something similar?
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Re: Conductivity improving grease project

Post by mrzed » Jul 14 2014 12:37am

I like the approach - reminds me of the way heat is conducted off CPU's using a TIM.

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Re: Conductivity improving grease project

Post by Arlo1 » Jul 14 2014 12:42am

just take a pencil and draw on the surface then mix grease into it....
Does your project need a high performance motor drive, battery charger or other power electronics developed? Let's talk!
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Re: Conductivity improving grease project

Post by kfong » Jul 14 2014 12:27pm

Arlo1, hey you should patent that :mrgreen:

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Re: Conductivity improving grease project

Post by agniusm » Jul 14 2014 1:39pm

...you still need sticky tape to separate layers into single 2d til you get graphene

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Re: Conductivity improving grease project

Post by cal3thousand » Jul 14 2014 2:53pm

So you think phase wires could be replaced by thinner conductive-fluid-carrying cables instead? Or thinner "soaked" wires?
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Re: Conductivity improving grease project

Post by Arlo1 » Jul 14 2014 3:23pm

I think the electric cables in the future will be made from pure graphine!
Does your project need a high performance motor drive, battery charger or other power electronics developed? Let's talk!
www.powerdesigns.ca
Leaf motor controller build. http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 27#p963227
YSR build http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRo8r5g4NBg
Never above 4.2v never below 2.7v EVER!!!
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cal3thousand   1.21 GW

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Re: Conductivity improving grease project

Post by cal3thousand » Jul 14 2014 3:33pm

Arlo1 wrote:I think the electric cables in the future will be made from pure graphine!
But what about something that this shadetree ebike mechanic can do in the near future?
Get a Cycle Analyst and a Multimeter, you're still a noob if you don't have at least one of each.

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Re: Conductivity improving grease project

Post by Arlo1 » Jul 14 2014 9:31pm

cal3thousand wrote:
Arlo1 wrote:I think the electric cables in the future will be made from pure graphine!
But what about something that this shadetree ebike mechanic can do in the near future?
LOL use copper. if you are a "shadetree" ebike mechanic then you will never care if you have some super small amount of loss from copper.
Does your project need a high performance motor drive, battery charger or other power electronics developed? Let's talk!
www.powerdesigns.ca
Leaf motor controller build. http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 27#p963227
YSR build http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRo8r5g4NBg
Never above 4.2v never below 2.7v EVER!!!
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Re: Conductivity improving grease project

Post by TheBeastie » Jul 15 2014 6:42am

*Edit*
Looks good but I don't understand the "Resistivity" spec of the "ASI 70 Silicone Compound" says "Volume Resistivity . . 1 x 10 15 phm/cm"
Wtf is "Phm"? I want to see ohms/cm don't I?
https://www.chemtronics.com/description ... 100tds.pdf

I was just looking at this stuff "CW7100" as it straight out says in its specs "Volume resistivity <0.01 ohm-cm"
https://www.chemtronics.com/description ... 100tds.pdf
kfong wrote:Got a sample on order, please read the material safety sheet before playing with this stuff. Treat it like hazardous material, even the safety sheet specifies unknown effects. We are playing with a material so new and due to the size, it's create a new level of pollution if dumped into the waste stream. Cost of advancement :roll:
So has the stuff been fed/shoved into eyes of lab rats and bunnies to see what it does?
Seems a bit weird, so we have this ultra super strong material that its so tiny you can't really see it, and now just any one can buy it?
http://en.ocsial.com/assets/files/45/c4 ... 0sheet.pdf
I think the only proper thing to do is give it to the poor and see what happens to them. (jk)
Last edited by TheBeastie on Sep 19 2016 3:03am, edited 4 times in total.
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