This is how A123 care about quality control

I have ordered from A123 through their authorized dealer - StorTronics.
This has been terrible experience.
I ordered 20 pcs of AMP20 pouches.
First to start with
pictures of AMP20 pouches on A123 web site - that is what I was expecting to get, I was wrong.
Pictures are so different from what I got.
I expected to get pristine , perfect cells.
I was shocked what I saw after opening the box.
StorTronics did not even checked cells, just reshipped them to me.
Those cells remain me what I was getting from Victpower:
ridges, uneven surface, faulty isolator around terminals.
Cells definitely were NOT damaged during shipping by FedEx.
Pictures speak for themselves.

this is warning to anybody who even think about ordering from A123 through StorTronics.
When inquired by StorTronics about false advertising /compare what on A123 web site with what I got/ A123 keep silence.
All my cells were manufactured in 2015, so this not any old stock.

Not good. Yea, PM wb9k and see if we can get an inside perspective on what's going on. It may not be StorTronics, but A123. You're right in expecting new, pristine, guaranteed, A-grade cells without defect. Is A123 using its retail distributor to dump sub-standard cells? Is StorTronics getting a better price for B-grade and so a higher profit margin? Also, what did you pay for those cells? They charging the $70 we're used to? Are there price breaks for quantity? Thanks for being the guinea pig. Sorry for your bad experience. Please work it out.

The dents are not good, and should not have escaped like that. Are they all like this, or is it just a few cells? The tiny nick in the top of the cell pouch that you show in close up is a normal artifact of the in-line pouch isolation test and is NOT a defect. All the cells have that. The grade marks on the cell shown indicate an A-grade cell, so this is not B-grade stuff. Where do you see bad isolation tape? Who have you complained to, exactly?

We aren't perfect, but we care a great deal about quality. The comparison to Victpower seems over the top given what you're showing here. Please help me understand your precise issues and I will do what I can to rectify them.

Isolation around right cell terminal is missing or sitting very low so we cannot see it. Picture is very clear. I have good cells , I can see difference.
How difficult is to understand it?
I have got such cells , I can see clearly difference - isolation around terminals must be identical on both terminals, that is obvious.

Summary.
I am talking only about mechanical appearance.
I do not care about electrical performance at this stage. Lets not talk about it right now.
Out of 20 cells only 7 is in ideal, pristine condition.
There is no way flattening bent cells would not have influence on long time performance.
But seriously
Some QC employee must had picked such bad cells on instruction from whom?
Of course did not complain to A123, only StorTronics.
To be absolutely clear. Cells were packed at A123 , Livonia and send kilometers away to StorTronics, Livonia from where were shipped to me.
More pictures.

A carton of 20 AMP20 cells from http://buya123batteries.com when EVDM was the distributor, would be sent directly from the Linova factory to customers. Is it the same now for StorTronics? If so, that means only the factory may be at fault.

No, it is not how StorTronics works.
StorTronics gets cells first from A123 and next reships to customer.
I check it twice, they did not open box with my cells, just reshipped by FedEx same day the got it from A123.

pictures of the shipping box

if the numbers in last pic match up with the cells, you can tell a bit about the cells.


I've outlined in red, 7 cells which are from different months of 2014, I'm betting those numbers match the seven bad cells you have. The rest of the cells are all made between the 19th and 25th of jan 2015, there are:
2 cells from 19th, 5 cells from the 20th, 3 from the 21st and 3 from the 25th jan 2015.
This does gives some clues about these cells, you would expect to get all the cells from same day of manufacture with batch numbers being in sequence.
So it looks like a123 has taken cells from many different production dates to send to you, and none in sequence, i.e. from same time of manufacture.
So why have these cells been taken out of sequence? I would be guessing the cells had some issue, whether it be cosmetic or otherwise, there will be some reason they are not all in sequence from same batch/time. I suspect they are trying to get rid of cells that might have passed some tests but failed others. I would be going for complete refund and asking for cells from same batch, this is a mismatched bunch of cells.............I think a123 has been caught out on this occasion, very dissapointing.

here's how to read date code ( I had to work out how to read it as wb9k wouldn't share that info)

I'm guessing stortronics are paying lower price for reject cells and charging high price, although having the a1 grading stamp.
Something is definitely not right about these cells. Looks like stortronics is located very close to a123 factory in livonia also.

A123 has been caught
Very well said
Yes I know how to read data from those designations.
2015 means year
capital letter after that means month
A means January.
I paid by credit card, spoke to PC MasterCard dispute division, they have
Technical stuff, described situation to them ,clearly manufacturing
defect merchandise to them. Merchendise not as described that is clear
They are sending me claim forms.
Chances are high that they issue charge back order for Stortronics bank
Shipping back is tricky between me and dealer
No way I will for return.

another possibility is these came "out the back door" although sent from a123, someone working there supplying them without knowledge of the a123 head honchos. I would think if the heads at a123 knew about this someone there would be in quite a bit of trouble.

No I do not believe in those theories, very unlikely combinations..
they were picked up from production lines.
They were collected from different machines/robots , first visual inspection decides about reject/not reject, next electrical tests.

first three letters which you didn't mentioned in your explainations means name of machine/robot on which cell were manufactured.

Clearly QC stuff is instructed at A123 to pass cells with manufacturing defects. Clearly those robots get old, decalibrate often, falling apart.
If you remember Fiskar woes you get a picture what is happening on A123 production floor and if you add that Chinese bought it bringing some directions from the top you get more idea.

If it comes to getting refund. According to MASTERCARD it is basically between me and StoreTRONICS if it comes to return shipping,
bank does not have any procedure for it.
Anybody here had any experience on return shipping after/or before/ getting full refund?

I have bought some cells long time ago from victpower and they were better, i mean look:

wb9k said that all cells that were from China were rejects. Now the question arises. How A grade cell ended up in China as a reject? I mean A grade is when it passes all the tests and meets them yet is a reject. There is something fishy about A123 and all the info just does not add up. The price, the quality, the availability is a big balloon of nonsense. Will be avoiding.

that is what I was trying to explain to wb9k .
Cells from Victpower are A123 cells.
Your question is interested , I also bought more than 20 from Victpower.
In two shipments.
One shipment was 20 all of them grade A0 no just A1 as yours.
BUT
They just bearly delivered 19Ah at 20A, until 2.5V LVC, typically 19.2Ah - definitely not good enough for A0, NO WAY.
I also got 1,2 no more looking like yours on picture, but only 2 out of 20.
Also don't forget they are old, old, my all of them 2010!!!
Discharge tests are coming but they look like very well performing.

I am not giving up on A123 AMP20, all my ebike are going to be powered by them.
There are great technology well researched, not like LGChem pouches very rare and secretive in hobby market.

miro13car said:

I am not giving up on A123 AMP20, all my ebike are going to be powered by them.

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Good to hear. For now, same for me. So its important for a group of us to have some assurances on getting good cells. Please keep-on!

There's a shit ton of cells headed to recycling out there in A123 land. I do believe that they stopped making these quite a while ago, before bankruptcy.

You guys who wanna use A123 cells are fighting over the last of the scraps. It's unlikely that you're going to find pristine ( or even close to ) cells out there unless you 'know a guy'..

neptronix said:

There's a shit ton of cells headed to recycling out there in A123 land. I do believe that they stopped making these quite a while ago, before bankruptcy.

You guys who wanna use A123 cells are fighting over the last of the scraps. It's unlikely that you're going to find pristine ( or even close to ) cells out there unless you 'know a guy'..

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Huh? They're talking of cells dated 2015. Where's W? (I won't call ya Dubya.)

neptronix is right that a lot of them going for recycling, or they should have gone to recycling.
Looks like A123 is struggling to deliver quality cells with aging robots/machines, maybe lack of maintenance.
It is obvious that they have lower and lower standards for QC.
I am finishing discharge tests and looks like they deliver very well:
all of them 20Ah or just above 20Ah with NONE of them below 20Ah on 20A discharge until 2.0V on CBA software version2.2.
Discharge curves are very similar to each other, cover each ether until about 17-18Ah discharge .
Well they are mostly 2015, all my Victpower ones were 2010 in November 2014.

the fact that they show one thing as a AMP20 cell /first picture in this thread/ on their web site and ship something different says a lot about A123 business practices.
I am puzzled where this perfect cell came from and if it is really manufactured?
It might be on one of new assembly robots and offered to "special" customers.

Dauntless said:

Huh? They're talking of cells dated 2015. Where's W? (I won't call ya Dubya.)

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Is that true, or were they relabeled?

A123 made good efforts out of keeping these cells out of our hands, and especially from dodgy vendors.
What exactly are they producing these cells for? The second failure of the Fisker Karma..?

Perhaps the new Chinese ownership is running things a bit different these days.

There is still a lot of old crap / recycled stock that i hear was diverted from the recyclers.. mostly from the Fisker Karma's failure, from what i know.

the cells I have are a123 from korea via taobao seller, manufacture date much older (2005/2006 i think from memory),
the taobao seller checked the cells for IR, and in good condition, cells still going well but only using low amps ( 20amps).
At $8usd per cell ( now around $10usd from same seller) hard to beat. But I had someone in china organise sending the cells out, before the crack down by airlines on lithiums. Seems now sweden post is only air method ex china.
If you can find someone organise shipping from china, you can get all sorts of a123 cells via taobao, new/ old, usa/korean.
Hard part is finding taobao seller that actually tests ( and rejects bad cell outer condition) the cells before sending. For the price though its worth pursuing, now if a123 livonia is selling dubius cells for $70usd, thats seven times the price, even if you get a few bad cells via taobao, the difference in cost is huge, you can order a few extra cells. But you need a good contact in china to order the cells and send them out..........thats the hard part.
There are many chinese sellers charging top dollar for cells ( eg victpower), the price they would be buying these cells for would be maybe $5usd per cell, you can surmise that from the taobao seller prices.
Something very fishy going on with these cells you have received microcar, I would be contacting a123 livonia and giving them all the info you have, I'm sure the heads at livonia will be very interested to know this information. That might be your best bet, deal directly with a123 Livonia and get in contact with someone high up, pretty sure you will have a good outcome.
You want to go directly to a123 livonia not through intermediary, straight to the top is only way you'll get results.

Ok, now that I've had almost an hour in the office to figure out what's going on here, I can report some actual progress. I have a series of emails that have gone between miro and Lynn at StorTronics which cover the concerns and problems that have plagued this shipment. Lots of information there that is not here. After a review of the facts and a discussion with my management, I am now confident we can work this out, and I'm willing to do it all here in the open where it was started.

First, I have to ask a question of miro. Can you describe the packaging the cells arrived in? There was a cardboard box, 10 plastic trays with two cells each in them.....anything else at all inside that box? Please be as detailed as you can.

Thanks.