docnjoj
1 GW
As an Amp20 A123 user, I am certainly following this exchange.
otherDoc
otherDoc
This is how A123 care about quality control
- Thread starter miro13car
- Start date
wb9k
10 kW
While we're waiting for details on packaging, I'll address some of the many concerns that have been raised here by miro and questions asked by others.
Since it seems to be a strong point of interest for many observers, I'll mention that cell price is now $65 USD each; this was the price paid in this transaction. I have no idea what accounts for this small drop in price, but we have made significant progress on the cost reduction front in the past year or so, so that is maybe now beginning to bear fruit, trickle-down style.
First, I'll address what I consider to be the valid concerns of the original poster, and perhaps most uncomfortable for A123. The wrinkles on the cell do occur sometimes, but are not a rejectable defect. We have mountains of data on these cells showing that there is virtually no difference in performance, longevity, or reliability vs. cells that appear perfectly flat. This includes life cycling, vibration, and all manner of environmental testing, some of which was performed at the direct request of the quality group. All of our other customers have seen this data and they accept these cells as well, so this community is not being singled out as a target for defective items here. I even have it on good authority that LG cells can also have this appearance and they sell them their customers too. Once you know the facts, this is not of real concern. I may be able to post some of the supporting data here for anyone who is curious.
The isolation tape that can't be seen on the anode is a valid concern, and probably a rejectable defect. We have never seen a known escape of this issue before, nor is it a known real-world failure mode. I missed it in the picture, partly because I've never seen it before (and also partly because it wasn't made clear what was being shown when I first saw it--I mistakenly assumed he was objecting to the tiny slit in the top of the pouch). Whether the isolation tape is too low (most likely) or missing altogether I don't know, but we will do a teardown analysis on the cell to find out and come up with a way to prevent this going forward. The cell did pass the production isolation tests, so I expect the tape is in fact there, but just out of sight. A report will be published, and may well also end up here for all to see.
For the remaining issues (that I'm aware of at least), I need details on packaging from the buyer to make informed decisions about what went wrong. But let me reiterate in no uncertain terms that A123 DOES NOT sell or ship bent, dented, or damaged cells to anyone, anywhere. Period. I look forward to clarifying the remaining issues once I have the data I need.
More to follow.
Since it seems to be a strong point of interest for many observers, I'll mention that cell price is now $65 USD each; this was the price paid in this transaction. I have no idea what accounts for this small drop in price, but we have made significant progress on the cost reduction front in the past year or so, so that is maybe now beginning to bear fruit, trickle-down style.
First, I'll address what I consider to be the valid concerns of the original poster, and perhaps most uncomfortable for A123. The wrinkles on the cell do occur sometimes, but are not a rejectable defect. We have mountains of data on these cells showing that there is virtually no difference in performance, longevity, or reliability vs. cells that appear perfectly flat. This includes life cycling, vibration, and all manner of environmental testing, some of which was performed at the direct request of the quality group. All of our other customers have seen this data and they accept these cells as well, so this community is not being singled out as a target for defective items here. I even have it on good authority that LG cells can also have this appearance and they sell them their customers too. Once you know the facts, this is not of real concern. I may be able to post some of the supporting data here for anyone who is curious.
The isolation tape that can't be seen on the anode is a valid concern, and probably a rejectable defect. We have never seen a known escape of this issue before, nor is it a known real-world failure mode. I missed it in the picture, partly because I've never seen it before (and also partly because it wasn't made clear what was being shown when I first saw it--I mistakenly assumed he was objecting to the tiny slit in the top of the pouch). Whether the isolation tape is too low (most likely) or missing altogether I don't know, but we will do a teardown analysis on the cell to find out and come up with a way to prevent this going forward. The cell did pass the production isolation tests, so I expect the tape is in fact there, but just out of sight. A report will be published, and may well also end up here for all to see.
For the remaining issues (that I'm aware of at least), I need details on packaging from the buyer to make informed decisions about what went wrong. But let me reiterate in no uncertain terms that A123 DOES NOT sell or ship bent, dented, or damaged cells to anyone, anywhere. Period. I look forward to clarifying the remaining issues once I have the data I need.
More to follow.
miro13car
100 kW
wb9k,
first of all thank you so much for trying to help here.
Please, bring all the facts here into open, I don't care maybe short of my credit card info.
But seriously I APPRECIATE your help.
Box arrived in very good shape with warning stickers all over, FedEx driver even knew what inside, commented on it.
If it were crushed it would had been obvious.
Wait I am going to take pictures.
For now situation is as follows:
Lynn got replacement cells from you, she is willing to inspect cells, take pictures of all of them.
Unfortunately she did not check first shipment from you, just reshipped like that to me. Wrong.
WHAT at issue now is return shipping who pays.
Lynn clearly ignored several my references to return shipping in my emails.
As you can read in my emails I mentioned it several times.
She ignored it.
I do NOT return cells , because I changed my mind , but because cells are defective, namely: bend, missing isolators around terminals/or sitting so low - invisible/ ,
ridges.
I want to be clear ridges on the surface are defects!!
So FOR now return shipping is at the issue.
first of all thank you so much for trying to help here.
Please, bring all the facts here into open, I don't care maybe short of my credit card info.
But seriously I APPRECIATE your help.
Box arrived in very good shape with warning stickers all over, FedEx driver even knew what inside, commented on it.
If it were crushed it would had been obvious.
Wait I am going to take pictures.
For now situation is as follows:
Lynn got replacement cells from you, she is willing to inspect cells, take pictures of all of them.
Unfortunately she did not check first shipment from you, just reshipped like that to me. Wrong.
WHAT at issue now is return shipping who pays.
Lynn clearly ignored several my references to return shipping in my emails.
As you can read in my emails I mentioned it several times.
She ignored it.
I do NOT return cells , because I changed my mind , but because cells are defective, namely: bend, missing isolators around terminals/or sitting so low - invisible/ ,
ridges.
I want to be clear ridges on the surface are defects!!
So FOR now return shipping is at the issue.
miro13car
100 kW
wb9k
10 kW
miro13car said:
OK, this means our shipping guys did their jobs right. We don't ship bent or dented cells. The box wasn't crushed, but are you sure it was never opened? My main suspicion at this point is that Canadian customs opened the package and handled some of the cells. Does this seem possible?
wb9k
10 kW
Here, I'll discuss the timeline and sequence of events from the time miro contacted StorTronics with a problem to the time we authorized the return of the cells to A123.
Before the cells even left the area, they were returned to StorTronics for missing labeling (which forbids the placement of the package on passenger aircraft). StorTronics made it clear that this was their mistake and apologized. Miro stated he was concerned that the extra handling might damage the packaging--an interesting statement given the insistence here that the damage absolutely did not happen during shipping:
To let you know that my order was shipped and next diverted/sent by FedEx back to StorTronics.
FedEx web site says the reason for that: "unacceptable or incompatable hazardous material"
Clearly FedEx has strict policy for sending battery cells like AMP20 ,
somebody did not follow procedure?
You see I am worry that such sending back and fourth will wear and tear packing box.
I hope packing is extra reinforced for such cells or you just sent it in A123 box?
From the emails I have, it appears that after receiving the cells, miro contacted StorTronics on March 16, which is one week ago, today. The original complaint appears to be about the manufacture dates on the cells:
my order is not what I was ordering, namely recent production cells.
Ask Melissa, I wrote her long email. Attached pictures.
The response from StorTronics gives all information on how to decode this information, which I assume is how he came to know how to do it. The oldest cell I have seen a photo of comes from October of 2014. This means all cells are within 180 days of each other by age, which is good enough to go into any factory built pack at A123. We don't allow mixing of cells from a wider time period, not because they become defective, but because mixing vintages retards the initial balancing process, leading to production delays for us. Cells do not pass through our system in a necessarily linear way. It is not an issue beyond what I have described just above.
StorTronics contacted A123 the same day (the 16th), through their A123 sales contact . I haven't seen the email to Melissa referenced above, so I'm not sure what exactly was communicated, but the cell wrinkles appear to have been a concern by this point. This was the very first box of Amp 20's that StorTronics ever handled, and the first complaint they have received about A123 of any kind that I'm aware of. Thus, StorTronics had no previous contact with warranty and was unsure how to proceed. The sales person forwarded the StorTronics email to my boss (who was on vacation last week) and his boss, the director of quality on the next day, the 17th. I was not myself made aware of any of this until the thread popped up here--before the two collective companies had been given even one full work week to finish responding. Both companies WERE responding however. Distraught by the crazy speculation, comparisons to Victpower, and piling on that was building here, I emailed several members of the quality team and quickly got a response from the director of quality stating the problem was known--this was on Sunday afternoon. I found out later that this incident had already been put into the executive summary report for this week and the wheels were already in motion for any bad cells to be replaced. I don't know if StorTronics relayed this information to miro last week or not, but it seems that had he just waited until this morning, miro would have known all of this for sure. There was never any need to take to the internet with wild accusations. One email from miro to Lynn (at ST) caught the attention of some of us. In it's entirety:
Did you see pictures on A123 web site versus my pictures.
That is clearly false advertisement on the part of A123.
Anyway for now 12 cells have some kind of manufacturing defects.
I would expect them to be perfect cells, pristine for 65 dollars US.
I would keep the cells if the price/unit is lowered and 12 cells replaced, lowered by how much that is up to negotiations
I'll refrain from drawing conclusions about the exact meaning of the last sentence, but it is curious. Why would anyone want to keep defective, dangerous cells, let alone offer to pay any money at all for them? Perhaps I am misinterpreting....
Still more to come.
Before the cells even left the area, they were returned to StorTronics for missing labeling (which forbids the placement of the package on passenger aircraft). StorTronics made it clear that this was their mistake and apologized. Miro stated he was concerned that the extra handling might damage the packaging--an interesting statement given the insistence here that the damage absolutely did not happen during shipping:
To let you know that my order was shipped and next diverted/sent by FedEx back to StorTronics.
FedEx web site says the reason for that: "unacceptable or incompatable hazardous material"
Clearly FedEx has strict policy for sending battery cells like AMP20 ,
somebody did not follow procedure?
You see I am worry that such sending back and fourth will wear and tear packing box.
I hope packing is extra reinforced for such cells or you just sent it in A123 box?
From the emails I have, it appears that after receiving the cells, miro contacted StorTronics on March 16, which is one week ago, today. The original complaint appears to be about the manufacture dates on the cells:
my order is not what I was ordering, namely recent production cells.
Ask Melissa, I wrote her long email. Attached pictures.
The response from StorTronics gives all information on how to decode this information, which I assume is how he came to know how to do it. The oldest cell I have seen a photo of comes from October of 2014. This means all cells are within 180 days of each other by age, which is good enough to go into any factory built pack at A123. We don't allow mixing of cells from a wider time period, not because they become defective, but because mixing vintages retards the initial balancing process, leading to production delays for us. Cells do not pass through our system in a necessarily linear way. It is not an issue beyond what I have described just above.
StorTronics contacted A123 the same day (the 16th), through their A123 sales contact . I haven't seen the email to Melissa referenced above, so I'm not sure what exactly was communicated, but the cell wrinkles appear to have been a concern by this point. This was the very first box of Amp 20's that StorTronics ever handled, and the first complaint they have received about A123 of any kind that I'm aware of. Thus, StorTronics had no previous contact with warranty and was unsure how to proceed. The sales person forwarded the StorTronics email to my boss (who was on vacation last week) and his boss, the director of quality on the next day, the 17th. I was not myself made aware of any of this until the thread popped up here--before the two collective companies had been given even one full work week to finish responding. Both companies WERE responding however. Distraught by the crazy speculation, comparisons to Victpower, and piling on that was building here, I emailed several members of the quality team and quickly got a response from the director of quality stating the problem was known--this was on Sunday afternoon. I found out later that this incident had already been put into the executive summary report for this week and the wheels were already in motion for any bad cells to be replaced. I don't know if StorTronics relayed this information to miro last week or not, but it seems that had he just waited until this morning, miro would have known all of this for sure. There was never any need to take to the internet with wild accusations. One email from miro to Lynn (at ST) caught the attention of some of us. In it's entirety:
Did you see pictures on A123 web site versus my pictures.
That is clearly false advertisement on the part of A123.
Anyway for now 12 cells have some kind of manufacturing defects.
I would expect them to be perfect cells, pristine for 65 dollars US.
I would keep the cells if the price/unit is lowered and 12 cells replaced, lowered by how much that is up to negotiations
I'll refrain from drawing conclusions about the exact meaning of the last sentence, but it is curious. Why would anyone want to keep defective, dangerous cells, let alone offer to pay any money at all for them? Perhaps I am misinterpreting....
Still more to come.
miro13car
100 kW
wb9k
As you probably know or you don't know:
this box was taken by FedEx and next returned to StorTronics the same day, because missing label or other HAZMAT procedure not followed properly. sTORtRONICS rectified it, called FedEx , box was picked up again next day. New tracking number were issued. Box might have been opened during those back and forth sending.
Can you see clear envelope on the top?
It was maybe reapplied with new traking number.
As you probably know or you don't know:
this box was taken by FedEx and next returned to StorTronics the same day, because missing label or other HAZMAT procedure not followed properly. sTORtRONICS rectified it, called FedEx , box was picked up again next day. New tracking number were issued. Box might have been opened during those back and forth sending.
Can you see clear envelope on the top?
It was maybe reapplied with new traking number.
wb9k
10 kW
miro13car said:
We make every effort to provide world class support.
Thanks for the pictures. The box doesn't have to be crushed for cell damage to occur. This was why I needed to know about the packaging. We know that if the cellophane wrap around the cartoned cells is not included, we get damage that looks very much like what you have there. That would have been our fault, and we would have refunded at that point for all the damage without any further question. That wasn't the case, however, and as I've mentioned before the main suspect at this time is Canadian customs. I'm not sure how we will handle that at the moment; we've never experienced this before to my knowledge. I'll follow up on that tomorrow.
Return shipping is between you and StorTronics. You are their customer, not ours. I have no idea what their policies are regarding returns or return shipping. I'm sure I'll be finding out in the coming days. Please do the same and plan accordingly. I'm sure many of us will learn from this whole process. It's painful and tedious, but necessary.
Please specify what you mean exactly by "ridges". If you mean the vein-like wrinkles shown in the pictures I've seen so far, I don't think I can help you. If we don't accept returns for that from customers buying millions of cells, I'm pretty sure we won't buy them back from a guy buying 20 cells. Like I said, we have reams of extended test data on "vein cells" as they are called which prove they are not problematic. I and others personally raised significant hell making sure this was solidly proven by the cell group, and it was. I have no remaining grounds for objection, and I'm pretty sure you don't either. I'm sorry the appearance disappoints you, but you won't even be able to see this surface in a properly assembled pack and there is no performance difference so there is really no grounds for return there.
I hope these details lay some of your concerns to rest, but I know we are far from done here just yet. We'll be with you here until your several valid concerns are resolved.
wb9k
10 kW
miro13car said:
I do know this, I mentioned it in my second long post in this thread, just above. Our posts probably crossed in cyberspace.
I'm not sure exactly what was wrong with the initial labeling. The emails suggest that only the orange sticker prohibiting placement of the package on passenger aircraft was missing. I don't think FedEx would open the package to the point of handling cells if this were the case. There are a few Canadians that work in our office (including new ES member brownrdb2) who have had Canadian customs tamper with technical shipments they have received in the past, so we know that this is possible. They wouldn't have to do much to inflict the damage you show. That is a sticky issue. I'm not sure what recourse either of us has against customs, or if they will even tell us if they ever opened the package. Yet another new situation. We will pursue it to the fullest extent possible, but it may take time. This has long term implications for both A123 and its customers.
miro13car
100 kW
As far as I know once parcel is stopped by Canadian customs is held there not for few hours.
My parcel came rather fast.
Anyway Lynn has replacement cells, but the issue is return shipping.
I will examine closely how many cell have faulty isolator and let you know.
The point is isolator should look same on both terminals, period.
This is going to tells us exactely how many cells are defective with isolation.
OK?
My parcel came rather fast.
Anyway Lynn has replacement cells, but the issue is return shipping.
I will examine closely how many cell have faulty isolator and let you know.
The point is isolator should look same on both terminals, period.
This is going to tells us exactely how many cells are defective with isolation.
OK?
wb9k
10 kW
miro13car said:
I think we are in full agreement that isolation tape not clearing the top of the pouch is a problem, you will get no argument from us there. Do you have more than one like that? I looked at several cells in the lab today to see if I had any like that, and I don't. I assure you, that issue will be fully investigated. I already plan to escalate the concern tomorrow.
miro13car
100 kW
Of course I have more than one cell with isolator around terminal sticking out very little.
But the one I showed you is the worse.
Can take pictures tomorrow now is 10:00.
wb9k,
we can exchange emails back and forth for long.
A123 already sent 12 replacement cells to StorTronics , RMA issued attached to email from Lynn.
RMA issued because cells are defective, why would they send replacement cells anyway.
Lynn allowed me to send up to 12 cells for replacement to her.
The thing is that A123 sent defective cells in first place not StorTronics and should pay for my return shipping.
Lynn simply would refund return shipping if A123 pay her.
Wow, how many times I already wrote this.
Do you want to help?
or you have no authority to do anything, you are not sells department.
But the one I showed you is the worse.
Can take pictures tomorrow now is 10:00.
wb9k,
we can exchange emails back and forth for long.
A123 already sent 12 replacement cells to StorTronics , RMA issued attached to email from Lynn.
RMA issued because cells are defective, why would they send replacement cells anyway.
Lynn allowed me to send up to 12 cells for replacement to her.
The thing is that A123 sent defective cells in first place not StorTronics and should pay for my return shipping.
Lynn simply would refund return shipping if A123 pay her.
Wow, how many times I already wrote this.
Do you want to help?
or you have no authority to do anything, you are not sells department.
miro13car
100 kW
wb9k,
pictures do not lie, tens of ES members here can see them. Read the comments.
If you tells us here wrinkles are acceptable, that is wrong.
You can call it cosmetic, appearance, but they affect long time performance, they are pressure points.
For now lets call them cosmetic. Not important?
Member are here to judge.
They are acceptable on cells from Asian companies like Victpower for $28/piece.
Of course I would want to keep substandard cells, why not for lowered price.
I was just giving suggestion to Lynn how to solve the problem.
In general.
I stand by what I wrote in emails to Lynn. I expect pristine, smooth, defect free cells for US$65, wrinkle is defect.
And every reasonable member her would agree with me, already one agreed.
You avoid here to solve the problem or you are not authorized.
pictures do not lie, tens of ES members here can see them. Read the comments.
If you tells us here wrinkles are acceptable, that is wrong.
You can call it cosmetic, appearance, but they affect long time performance, they are pressure points.
For now lets call them cosmetic. Not important?
Member are here to judge.
They are acceptable on cells from Asian companies like Victpower for $28/piece.
Of course I would want to keep substandard cells, why not for lowered price.
I was just giving suggestion to Lynn how to solve the problem.
In general.
I stand by what I wrote in emails to Lynn. I expect pristine, smooth, defect free cells for US$65, wrinkle is defect.
And every reasonable member her would agree with me, already one agreed.
You avoid here to solve the problem or you are not authorized.
miro13car
100 kW
everybody reading this thread
in my first post everybody can see the first picture which is from A123 web site. This picture is of the AMP20 cell which A123 offer for sell.
And what I got, the same cell?
Obviously not.
That is misleading to customer.
Don't you think?
What do you suggest , in which way you want to help?
are you engineering department?
in my first post everybody can see the first picture which is from A123 web site. This picture is of the AMP20 cell which A123 offer for sell.
And what I got, the same cell?
Obviously not.
That is misleading to customer.
Don't you think?
What do you suggest , in which way you want to help?
are you engineering department?
Wb9k has already stated several times that wrinkles/veins in the cell pouch are not a defect and they have extensive data to prove it. You may not like the look of it, but that's just OCD.
So it looks like you have one genuinely defective cell (low tab isolator) and one or more (how many exactly) that have been dented/folded, possibly by Canadian Customs.
Your contract of sales is with Stortronics, not with A123. It's quite simple: you resolve the problem with your supplier (Stortronics), then Stortronics resolves the problem with their supplier (A123). You cannot demand A123 refund your original shipping, that just doesn't work.
If it were a domestic delivery service then the supplier (Stortronics) would be liable to ensure all cells arrived undamaged to you because the shipper is their agent. However, if Customs caused the damage then this is not the case and you are stuck in a grey area.
It sounds like you wish to reject the entire shipment of cells?
So it looks like you have one genuinely defective cell (low tab isolator) and one or more (how many exactly) that have been dented/folded, possibly by Canadian Customs.
Your contract of sales is with Stortronics, not with A123. It's quite simple: you resolve the problem with your supplier (Stortronics), then Stortronics resolves the problem with their supplier (A123). You cannot demand A123 refund your original shipping, that just doesn't work.
If it were a domestic delivery service then the supplier (Stortronics) would be liable to ensure all cells arrived undamaged to you because the shipper is their agent. However, if Customs caused the damage then this is not the case and you are stuck in a grey area.
It sounds like you wish to reject the entire shipment of cells?
agniusm
1 MW
Miro, have you checked if they have softness in them? Do cells flex or does it make dull sound when you knock on them?
wb9k
10 kW
Punx0r said:
Thank you for the rational input. That is indeed how the real world works. How a self-described engineer can be unaware of this is beyond me.
Miro, you are not going to use the internet to extort service from A123 that exceeds that to customers who are paying millions of dollars. The company will sooner shut this sales channel down altogether than bow to that behavior. We are already giving you plenty of good will by authorizing the return of cells that we are quite certain were not damaged by us. They will be replaced. Isolation tape that is "quite low" is perfectly acceptable. Totally out of sight or missing is not. If the tape is visible, don't return the cell as an isolation defect. I will lobby for it to go right back to you, and that's probably what will happen. I am not in charge at A123, but I'm not powerless either.
You welcomed a complete airing of the facts, and that is exactly what you are getting. The timing I've laid out here is real. Rather than give people almost any time to respond at all, you came here and started this. Fine. It will be finished here too. This, what is happening right here right now, is one of the main reasons the company has never made a priority of selling to hobbyists. The business model doesn't rise or fall on the actions of this community, and we cannot afford to throw a lot of valuable internal resources at explaining over and over and over again the things I am trying to explain here, let alone monitor every EV board on earth for stuff like this thread, putting out PR fires all the time. I have long been a strong proponent of making legit A123 cells available to this community, but now I find myself seeing the wisdom in not doing it at all. If this is the kind of thing we can expect to see regularly, I assure you it won't last.
agniusm
1 MW
Amen. As soon as they are completely out of reach the better. they are not for this sector of the market. If you build a vehicle for electric land speed record - yes, but at a price of 65usd/cell for DIY guys - utopia.
I like the phrase: "This is how the real world works". Same like saying that murder is OK. If I purchase goods and they come damaged/not as described I should not be responsible to spend more money on transportation. Your real world is far from common logic. I know that its the way it is but I think that suppliers must be regulated regarding this matter. I bought a TV or battery, it was delivered to me, if it was not working, it must be same way taken of me and replacement supplied free of charge plus a gift to smooth things out for my waiting and hassle.
I like the phrase: "This is how the real world works". Same like saying that murder is OK. If I purchase goods and they come damaged/not as described I should not be responsible to spend more money on transportation. Your real world is far from common logic. I know that its the way it is but I think that suppliers must be regulated regarding this matter. I bought a TV or battery, it was delivered to me, if it was not working, it must be same way taken of me and replacement supplied free of charge plus a gift to smooth things out for my waiting and hassle.
whatever
100 kW
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2010
- Messages
- 1,297
wb9k stated
Lets say you look at the cells recieved by the guy who made the electric delorean in australia ( I would have to look up the forum he posted on) but the cells he bought from a123, were sequential from same batch! The fact that these cells are from many different production dates/batches really raises concerns. Seems the hobbyist market is being treated as second rate citizens.
wb9k also stated
Also stated regarding the wrinkles
I feel quite strongly that microcar should be dealing directly with the head people at a123 about this, not through an intermediary ( wb9k) that seems to be quite offensive towards microcars comments and concerns.
No one would be happy recieving wrinkled cells, there is no excuse for sending out second rate cells at $65 per cell.
There is something fishy about all this.
A123 sends out second rate cells, at first rate prices, they are 100% responsible.
wb9k is well aware I posted how to read the codes, it took me alot of time and effort to work it out, anyone can read the codes of usa made cells since I posted that information some time back.
Lets say you look at the cells recieved by the guy who made the electric delorean in australia ( I would have to look up the forum he posted on) but the cells he bought from a123, were sequential from same batch! The fact that these cells are from many different production dates/batches really raises concerns. Seems the hobbyist market is being treated as second rate citizens.
wb9k also stated
Are you kidding!!
Also stated regarding the wrinkles
Yes we are all very curious about this, especially considering what is known about the cells being under pressure and how that effects the cells longevity etc ( from an a123 paper recently posted about).
I feel quite strongly that microcar should be dealing directly with the head people at a123 about this, not through an intermediary ( wb9k) that seems to be quite offensive towards microcars comments and concerns.
No one would be happy recieving wrinkled cells, there is no excuse for sending out second rate cells at $65 per cell.
There is something fishy about all this.
A123 sends out second rate cells, at first rate prices, they are 100% responsible.
wb9k
10 kW
agniusm said:
There is one bad cell here as far as I can tell, and some damaged ones. The wrinkle cells work just fine, there is no grounds for replacement there. This is equivalent to murder? Miro may well get all his extra shipping money back at the end of the day, but he will have to wait for resolution of the return process. That's how it works. Don't like it, don't play the game. The only thing unique about this situation is that a rep from the actual manufacturer is getting involved in the transaction at all. How many other makers do you see on here with that level of involvement?
parabellum
1 MW
This is why I love Paypall, you do not need to kneel before the Gods and hope them some day to decide in your favor, praying for replace ass many not as described articles as they feel comfortable at the moment.
Merchandise not as described period and wb9k recognizes there is at least 1 cell even considered defect. Even every shitty seller in China will try to solve the issue and quick if PayPall in between.
Miro, did you pay by credit card?
Merchandise not as described period and wb9k recognizes there is at least 1 cell even considered defect. Even every shitty seller in China will try to solve the issue and quick if PayPall in between.
Miro, did you pay by credit card?
wb9k
10 kW
The description A123 sells against is the electrical specification and absence of physical defects known to be problematic. We are acting swiftly to correct the problem where this expectation was not met, and in fact are going above and beyond by replacing cells that were damaged by somebody else. Maybe some changes to the website verbiage making some of this more clear is in order.
Some of these other expectations just are not reasonable. If you get a faulty part from Digi-Key, do you call up Texas Instruments (or whoever) to demand they pay your return shipping to Digi-Key? Does anyone here think that would be reasonable or result in a check in the mail?
Some of these other expectations just are not reasonable. If you get a faulty part from Digi-Key, do you call up Texas Instruments (or whoever) to demand they pay your return shipping to Digi-Key? Does anyone here think that would be reasonable or result in a check in the mail?
icerider
100 W
If I received a faulty part from DigiKey for $65, yes I would expect return shipping of the defective part to be free. In a case where hazardous shipping is required, I would expect Digikey to arrange for pickup of the defective material by an approved shipper at their expense, or they could simply abandon the damaged merchandise in place and ship the replacement immediately. As to who pays, I would REALLY SERIOUSLY not give a damn, as long as it is not me. As a customer, I really don't care how the manufacturer and middleman work out their little problems and I REALLY don't expect to hear about it from EITHER of them.
Suppliers who want to be taken seriously stand behind the products they sell. If they don't, they are ALWAYS replaced by somebody who does a better job of customer service. When junk gets shipped to the end user it damages the reputation of both the original manufacturer and the middleman. If this were my company and my reputation on the line, I would long since have shipped the replacement cells at my expense and abandoned the damaged cells in place.
wb9k
10 kW
And I would expect a customer to let the system respond before taking the "fight" (which didn't even exist before this thread was started) into a public forum. I'm not here to take care of Miro's problem..that has been underway for nearly a week already by a whole team of people. I'm here to set the story straight about A123's alleged unresponsiveness (which was never true) and to clarify what is legitimate in the litany of complaints registered here, so that people's expectations are clearer going forward. Potential customers can make up their own minds. There's obviously room for improvement in all of this by all parties, and I'm sure changes will come out of this whole episode. I'm not here to make excuses for anybody or cover anything up. All I care about is a full exposition of the facts in a context where several parties were saying it was "clearly obvious" that A123 is deliberately selling damaged goods, which is utterly and completely false. I understand these cells are expensive and they should perform as advertised. All indications from miro so far are that they do. One defect in 20 is too many, but it happens. It will be rectified.
I think the timeline and miro's comments about being OK with keeping these awful cells if they're just made cheap enough speak for themselves. I guess he doesn't like that I've exposed them, but that's Karma. Do I sound like I'm mincing words or being dishonest? Beating around the bush on any of the concerns raised? I could not be more clear, honest, or straightforward here. This was not a good way for the wrinkle thing to be found out by the wider public, that's obvious. It doesn't change the fact that it's not a defect beyond pure cosmetics, which are meaningless in a device like this. It's a tool, not a piece of home decor.
Who pays return shipping is not my decision to make. We're well aware that this is a sore point, and it will be addressed one way or another. Exactly how, I'm not sure, so I won't be making any promises about it until I am. Please exercise a little patience here and give the process time to work.
I think the timeline and miro's comments about being OK with keeping these awful cells if they're just made cheap enough speak for themselves. I guess he doesn't like that I've exposed them, but that's Karma. Do I sound like I'm mincing words or being dishonest? Beating around the bush on any of the concerns raised? I could not be more clear, honest, or straightforward here. This was not a good way for the wrinkle thing to be found out by the wider public, that's obvious. It doesn't change the fact that it's not a defect beyond pure cosmetics, which are meaningless in a device like this. It's a tool, not a piece of home decor.
Who pays return shipping is not my decision to make. We're well aware that this is a sore point, and it will be addressed one way or another. Exactly how, I'm not sure, so I won't be making any promises about it until I am. Please exercise a little patience here and give the process time to work.
arkmundi
10 MW
wb9k, appreciate you responsiveness and involvement of key personnel in rectifying this.