How do you drill a rim for better spoke alignment?

I have a rim that is drilled already. I heard it is best to drill the rims spoke holes to align the spokes to the hub motor.

I was wondering how do I do this? Do I first lace the rim and then remove one spoke at a time to drill, so that I can see the angle?

What should I use to drill the hole to better align the spoke? I think someone once said to use a countersink bit to do this, does that make sense? Do I need any washers or anything additional after drilling?

Have you seen this video yet?

[youtube]7-QZazAY0cc[/youtube]

Thank you Ypedal!

Good video, but he doesn't talk about aligning the spokes to be straight.

You can see that his spokes are bent a little bit and are not straight. I want to avoid this because this bend is supposedly what breaks spokes.

Rim drilling / filing looks like a PITA and much potential for screw up / uneven spoke tension.

My go to spoke for hub motors:

http://www.sapim.be/spokes/butted/strong

Thick enough on the flange end to not require washers, fits perfectly in 13 gauge (2.3mm) hub flanges, standard thread on the other. Can be custom cut to length from many places online.

Surprised nobody really knows how to drill a rim to align spokes. I guess it is because like you say supertux1, it is a PITA so nobody really does it. Very few probably even attempted it.
However, having a spoke that is not straight will prematurely break the spoke and usually at the end of the nipple. I learned this from experience.

Thinking about it after watching that video e-beach posted. Maybe the best way to go about it is to slowly file and shape each spoke hole to properly angle the spoke and seat the nipple properly.

I figure with filing you can go slowly enough where you will not totally screw up the rim hole. It will be time consuming but this is a hobby after all and who wouldn't want a wheel where you don't have to always replace spokes.

Probably the best way to do it is to lace the rim and apply enough tension to see how the spoke angle looks. Then individually pull each nipple out and file slowly until the spoke is straight. Then replace spoke and nipple and move to the next one.

I understand your frustration, QM. This is exactly the reason why a lot of experienced eBike builders in search of a more reliable, higher performing wheel solution are moving to moto rims->



:wink:

QuestionMan said:

Good video, but he doesn't talk about aligning the spokes to be straight.

You can see that his spokes are bent a little bit and are not straight. I want to avoid this because this bend is supposedly what breaks spokes.

Click to expand...

Don't believe that bit of spoke angle does what you "suppose" it does.

I once laced a 20" rim 1 cross on a 9C hub motor and I ran a drill bit through each spoke hole at approximate angle to help but that was a pretty severe angle.

26" rims with large hub motor primarily break at the flange not at nipple where you may "see" significant angle but any breaking there has more to do with cheap China metal spokes and/or too heavy gauge for the rim.

What you're "supposing" has no reason to be done because it's never been an issue with 100's of quality wheel builds. Build with quality rim and good spokes of proper gauge and a bit of angle at the nipple is of little consequence.

Ykick said:

I once laced a 20" rim 1 cross on a 9C hub motor and I ran a drill bit through each spoke hole at approximate angle to help but that was a pretty severe angle.

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Yes this is a good idea. I did the same with my 20" BMX rims lacing 1 cross on Cromotor.

some Infos how i did:

I first made a stencil on a plate. On this stencil i draw the rim and correct spoke angles (in both directions). With a cordless screwdriver i drilled the 4mm spoke holes up to 5mm in the correct angle on the first side. Then i turned the rim around and drilled the other side. You should also keep in mind that there is a second angle which depends on the wideness of the hub motor. For this i put some plates on the stencil on which i lay down the cordless screwdriver when drilling. No filing necessary (only to remove the burr if you dont have a burr bit). I laced 12ga spokes which have 4,6mm body so 5mm drill bit was pretty ok.
I know i cannot fasten this big spokes to their recommend tension in this fragile bmx rim, but my wheel is very stiff and it runs smoothly. Also no bumps, loose spokes or signs of rim crack under the nipples for so far..
Grease or oil on the nipple body and spoke thread makes tension more easy.

I also have 16" motorcycle Alu rims, but even with this rims the angle would not be like it should with Cromotor.

Lets hope that there will come out soon some rims on the market with special spoke angles for our big hubs.

I drill my rims to match spoke angle, and use both flange and rim washers that are custom made. That is the only way I found to do a powerful hub build reliable without going for the heavy motorcycle rims and tires. Big nipples are also a good help for the rim, and to properly tension 12 ga spokes. It is a patience job to do, but well worth the effort on the long run.

MadRhino - I had exactly the same experience and use 12G spokes that a check once a week for tension levels. I bought a high quality drill bit and ran it at 1500rpm to drill out the rim holes - which reduced snatching and burrs

Stevil_Knevil said:

I understand your frustration, QM. This is exactly the reason why a lot of experienced eBike builders in search of a more reliable, higher performing wheel solution are moving to moto rims->

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+1. Aluminum bicycle rims already over stressed on ebikes, now you want to drill it, on the angle too?

LSBW said:

Stevil_Knevil said:

I understand your frustration, QM. This is exactly the reason why a lot of experienced eBike builders in search of a more reliable, higher performing wheel solution are moving to moto rims->

Click to expand...

+1. Aluminum bicycle rims already over stressed on ebikes, now you want to drill it, on the angle too?

Click to expand...

Actually, I will be using a moto rim. A prowheel racing rim. The holes are already angled but I heard not enough for a straight spoke.

Like Mad Rhino said, and I also think the same and why I want to drill. It is best to just take the time and do it and it is worth the effort in the long run. When the spokes are not straight they will eventually break at the point where they leave the nipple. At least that is where all my 12 gauge spokes seem to break.

It is just annoying to have to end my ride early and drive home after a spoke broke. Then I have to deflate the tire and finagle replacing the spoke.

I am tired of all the issues my converted cross-country bike has and the constant maintenance and tuning to keep it running. With my new build I am trying to build everything bullet proof. I also don't want to deal with spoke issues, which includes tension and constant spokes breaking. That is why I am using thinner spokes, no 12 gauge spokes for me, and will have all the spokes perfectly straight.

I avoid drilling rims like the plague these days. Makes for improper nipple seats and difficult to build wheels.

Drill your hub flange with closer hole sets to reduce the angle, instead. A bit more effort, a million times better wheel.

I took some time and against what many here said drilled and used a dremmel tool on my rim to match the spoke angle and keep them straight on my wheel builds. Used 12 Sapim spokes and, inexpensive but heavy, double walled Weinmann DM30 rims with nickle plated brass nipples. Built the wheel then took one spoke out at a time and angle drilled the hole, already made for 12ga at the factory, towards the hole in the motor the spoke came from. Then I used a dremmel to relieve the point where the nipple sits on the rim so it would sit better, at the new spoke angle, on the rim. I messed up on one hole of the seven rims I built exactly the same. This was a very labor intensive undertaking but 10k+ on one set of rims and 4K on another without problems and seldom having to tighten a spoke says that it is an acceptable build for my modest <2500W needs. Plenty of curbs jumpend and likely 1-200 miles of hard packed dirt and gravel trails at best speed. No washers, no lube, no locktight involved. I had great results in spite of the naysayers but it could just as well have gone the other way with inferior parts or a few slips with the dremmel. I have seen others do things a bit differently with good results as well.

You might want to check out this video.

Just a short video explaining my wheel build using a sun ringle Mtx 24 inch rim.

[youtube]eaQDUNymBas[/youtube]

Oops I messed up my posts. Dlogic great vid. I had the local bikeshop mark my last couple of rims so I could drill the angle before I built the wheel. Only had to touch up a few holes after the build. It's was so much faster. Thanks for the post.

Dlogic said:

You might want to check out this video.

Just a short video explaining my wheel build using a sun ringle Mtx 24 inch rim.

Click to expand...

Dlogic, Very nice video on how you did it. I was wondering, did you do anything to how the nipple seats on the inside of the rim?

I would think that after drilling the rim, the nipple would not seat properly. Or would not sit flush with the inside of the rim.

QuestionMan this is the Dremel bit I used. Hard to get a round one at the right angle. Gots to be careful when using it! Most material taken off of one side of the hole so things sit better. If you are doing one at a time, on an already built wheel, you can clearly see where to remove the metal. It alternates from trailing to leading edges of the holes. You can see how it is in Dlogic's video

Dlogic said:

You might want to check out this video.

Just a short video explaining my wheel build using a sun ringle Mtx 24 inch rim.

Click to expand...

Your video does explain it very good

I'm little worried about spoke tension with such very big motorcycle spokes because there is nearly no "spring effect" between hub and rim.

How many miles do you have on this wheel and are there any signs of spokes coming through?

QuestionMan said:

Dlogic, Very nice video on how you did it. I was wondering, did you do anything to how the nipple seats on the inside of the rim?

I would think that after drilling the rim, the nipple would not seat properly. Or would not sit flush with the inside of the rim.

Click to expand...

Yes you are right. At steep angles the head of the nipple only has contact on a little surface on one side. With a dremel and a mill bit i drilled away some material of the rim on this side. How much you should mill of depends on the nipple bed. Take a look at rims with thick wall at nipple bed (this is always good anyway).

Dlogic said:

You might want to check out this video.

Click to expand...

How do you drill a rim for better spoke alignment?
Question answered!

Nicely done, Dl 8)

ok, pre-coffee but here goes.

Building a wheel using non-compatible parts, is always a compromise. Of course, everyone will have their opinion of what is best, and if it ends up in a functional, long lasting wheel, it's all good.

Some thoughts to share, since the video i made at the top of this page is 3 years old now..... i've built a few more since then. And JRH is absolutely right, if you are building one wheel ever few years, spend as much time as you wish, it's a hobby, enjoy it.... but if you are building wheels on a regular basis, drilling rims is nothing but a huge timesuck.

crystalyte 4 series in 26" rim,12g spokes, single cross, if your rim has eyelets, try to keep them

crystalyte 4 series in 20" rim,12g spokes, Radial lace, no cross, with very strong rim works fine

crystalyte X5 in 24" rim and motorcycle spokes, the eyelets have to be removed, and Dlogic shows a time consuming method that obviously works well... but i would not want to be doing this often.

Removing eyelets from bicycle rims, with thin aluminum, and then counter sinking them at an angle, leads to thin areas around the spoke that lead to cracking ... if you drill the holes ( with no eyelets ) at an angle, the spoke heads will bed themselves into the aluminum, you can also use rounded washers like doctorbass shows in one of his videos. .. everything is a compromise...but in the end, if it works. great.

Butted 13/14 are another option, the 13g hub side fits well enough that washers are not really needed and the 14g end at the rim fits normal quality eyeleted rims without messing with round files... i recently got a set from JRH and will make a video of that as a followup to the above video.

that, is my 0.02$ on the subject, i'm sure some (many) will say i'm nuts, but that's fine.. i've built a slew of wheels and put them thru hell on 100v bikes, my methods work for me, so take it for what it's worth. 8)

Dlogic said:

You might want to check out this video.

Just a short video explaining my wheel build using a sun ringle Mtx 24 inch rim.

Click to expand...

What a great video. You have some great skill my friend!

Tom

Thanks for the feedback guys. In order to tension those spokes properly conical washers where placed between the nipple and rim. They make an even surface the nipple can then sit on. So far i've done a little over 4700 Km with that wheel without any problems.
A few days back a wheel was laced for DH Paule using a 19 inch motorcycle rim ( SM Pro Platinum ). I must admit that this approach appears to be the strongest and stiffest yet. There's no need to drill anything. Just lace her up, true the rim and your all set.

Although Dlogic has a good method for re-drilling a hub..it is a little fiddly

If you have a full height pillar drill, that is a much easier way to do the re drilling of the rim.

I had to do one a while ago.

No pictures, sorry, but here is a basic outline of what you must do.

Mark up your rim as dlogic has done, measuring angles etc.

ideally strip the stator from motor, remove the air from the tyre..and save for later..you will need to put it back :lol:

Now with tyre and stator removed, get a piece of flat plywood and cut some blocks to secure the rim to the plywood, so it can rotate but not move sideways.

Fit the plywood below the drill head..swing the standard platform away..making up a suitable frame in 2x2 to hold the plywood.

set up the plywood and the rim so that when you drill down straight, you drill in the same line as the spokes ...the rim is now set at correct angle for that particular orientation hole

Will need to do this twice, for leading and trailing spokes..but it saves having to hold the drill at correct angle for each hole.

so for a 36 hole rim..it is :
Setup and drill 9 holes..rotating wheel one hole each time. flip wheel over and drill other side with same angle spokes.

Cant the board over for opposite angle holes..do 9..flip rim do next 9

I'll do video next time I do another rim to show those of you that can't picture what I mean

Here is a 19" prowheel dirtbike rim with a cromotor laced.

I did not drill holes to align it, the rim had the holes somewhat aligned already.

Do you think I should modify the holes to get a better spoke angle or is it not that bad and I should leave it?