StudEbiker's E-Bike-E build- ride vid pg. 7.

Continued from here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=25739#p372286

Last summer I rode a Giant Revive semi-recumbent and was really impressed with it and how comfortable it was to ride. I have had my eye out for one that I liked (at the right price) ever since. Well, I wasn't having much luck finding one so I started looking at other similar bikes that would have some of the characteristics of a Revive. A couple of people suggested the Sun Sport CX so I kept looking for one of those as well. Then, last weekend, a couple of semi-recumbents were posted up on the local Craigslist. The deal was basically buy a Sun EZ-1 for $100 and get a Bike E for free. Needless to say, I bought them sight unseen. The Sun had a brushed WE kit on it, and the bike had been stored outside under a cover but it hadn't been ridden or maintained in a few years it looked like. With a little work and elbow grease the Sun cleaned up very nicely and I then sold it. It was a nice riding bike and very comfortable and I have no doubt it would have made a great E-bike, but I was more interested in the Bike E for some reason. I had seen a couple before at the LBS but had never been particularly drawn to them, but that was before I rode the Revive and had a bug for an electric semi-recumbent. Looking around on ES and other places around the web I saw where a few people had made mid-drives to work with these including the Eco-Speed. With the SACHS 3x7 on the rear, this was starting to seem like an ideal semi-recumbent mid-drive project.



Rather than buying some off the shelf kit, I have decided to do my first "hacker" mid-drive and hopefully save a few bux. Much like my last build on the TidalForce where it was a learning experience and I added many new skills to my abilities hopefully I will learn much more about e-biking using non-hub drive and in the end have a nice comfortable quick(-ish) e-bike that will be able to tackle even the steepest hills around here with relative ease.

Here is an example of a mid-drive Bike E that I found here on ES that has some good info for the thinking on my build though I hope to improve on this build somewhat: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=20135

I spent a little time on Wednesday working on the bike, basically just stripping it all down to give it a good cleaning and take stock of what I have to work with. Here's a fun little picture taken at the end of the day.



Looking around for potential motors I looked at the 400W Kollmorgen and thought I was going to go that way, but then I found this on Ebay:



I found several good reviews of this motor so I decided to give it a shot. The motor is non-working but hopefully just has a blown controller. The internal controller is not serviceable, but there are a couple of threads around the web about modifying these to run with external controllers. I was able to buy the motor for $25 shipped.

So that's where I am right now. I will probably fit the bike with either a Sturmey-Archer 70mm or 90mm front drum brake since I won't have an option of a disc brake on the 16" front wheel and the behind the fork V-brake that is on the bike now may not give me the stopping power I want for the speeds I hope to achieve (26-30mph). I am pretty dumb regarding gear reduction and kv so if I say some dumb things I hope you will excuse me and maybe even correct me before I go too far off the deep end into something that is doomed for failure. :wink: Right now, I am planning to run the bike on 10s LiPo (which is another area I have no experience with). Ideally I am also hoping to find a way to do this without having to use one of the $pendy planetary drives that are available for this motor. Am I dreaming??

Why am I building another e-bike?

Well, the TidalForce is a great bike and I really enjoy it, but it is pretty darn heavy for the power that it has. I still have to work getting up hills, and with no rear suspension, it is a little jarring on the back. I am also looking for a car alternative. I think I can rig up the Bike E to pull a little one wheel Bob style trailer that I built awhile back and have pretty decent carrying capacity. With the LiPo and running through the gears, I expect to see a noticeable improvement in hill climbing ability. I doubt I will be able to get the weight lover than the TidalForce, but I bet when it's done it will be close. Also, I just want to see if I can do a somewhat custom build. The two other bikes I've done have been off the shelf kits (although the 9C had a few "issues" to overcome). It seems like the "non-hub drive" section is the final frontier in the bicycle portion of ES so I want to give it a shot and hopefully learn a few things along the way.

Why am I building another e-bike?

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Seriously - does anyone actually ask that? You're amongst friends here, it's a safe place...........I've been diagnosed (by my wife) with BBOD - Bicycle Building Obsessive Disorder. Finish it and build another I say - for no apparent reason too!

Glenn

I'm really curious since you mention using a drum brake on the front, I want good stopping power, as long as it is comparable to a good V-Brake up front, it would be fine, do the S/A Drum brakes give about that good of stopping power?

I was thinking of using a Shimano "roller" drum brake on the front, but Sheldon Brown recommends against it, and I have seen other reviews talking about it's "anti skid" feature that just causes one to have to grab harder on the brake.

LI-ghtcycle wrote:I'm really curious since you mention using a drum brake on the front, I want good stopping power, as long as it is comparable to a good V-Brake up front, it would be fine, do the S/A Drum brakes give about that good of stopping power?

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I don't know about the Shimano, but the S-A drums have gotten good reviews here on ES.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=23243&p=348220&hilit=sturmey+70mm#p338258

StudEbiker said:

LI-ghtcycle said:

I'm really curious since you mention using a drum brake on the front, I want good stopping power, as long as it is comparable to a good V-Brake up front, it would be fine, do the S/A Drum brakes give about that good of stopping power?

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I don't know about the Shimano, but the S-A drums have gotten good reviews here on ES.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=23243&p=348220&hilit=sturmey+70mm#p338258

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Sweet, and thanks for the PM! I am definitely interested!

Nice, I want to see how some one else does it. I have not used mine much due to poor batteries. I was going to buy some lipo's but wound up buying a couple little razor mx350's for my kids instead. I bought lead acid replacement batteries for them, what a joke. 8-10 hours to charge for 30 minutes of ride time? That's a hit with the kids. Now I need to buy 3 or 4 sets of lipos!!
If you go with the cyclone style get the one with daul freewheels. No need for the freewheeling front sprocket that way, and no extra moving chains. Put it further back and you won't need to widen the bb spindle either. Or better yet the drive like on the Dogatti would be perfect!! I wonder how much Ben would charge for a couple of those? Anyway good luck, looking forward to your progress! oh the small wheels are kinda scary at high speed, I have had mine to almost 50mph, coasting downhill (big hill). I think the V-brakes are plenty for the little wheels.

wildharemtbkr wrote:Nice, I want to see how some one else does it. I have not used mine much due to poor batteries. I was going to buy some lipo's but wound up buying a couple little razor mx350's for my kids instead. I bought lead acid replacement batteries for them, what a joke. 8-10 hours to charge for 30 minutes of ride time? That's a hit with the kids. Now I need to buy 3 or 4 sets of lipos!!
If you go with the cyclone style get the one with daul freewheels. No need for the freewheeling front sprocket that way, and no extra moving chains. Put it further back and you won't need to widen the bb spindle either. Or better yet the drive like on the Dogatti would be perfect!! I wonder how much Ben would charge for a couple of those? Anyway good luck, looking forward to your progress! oh the small wheels are kinda scary at high speed, I have had mine to almost 50mph, coasting downhill (big hill). I think the V-brakes are plenty for the little wheels.

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Nice to see you are still on the forum. I saw you hadn't posted in quite some time and wasn't sure if you were still hanging out here or not. What is a Dogatti? Any pictures of what you are speaking of? Would you be willing to take some other pictures of your set up if I needed to see something closer?

StudEbiker said:

. What is a Dogatti? Any pictures of what you are speaking of? Would you be willing to take some other pictures of your set up if I needed to see something closer?

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Its forum memeber j3tch1u e-bike



wildharemtbkr is talking about the cnc milled drive unit in Dogati.

KiM

That is NICE!! Yes I have been here, just lurking. I will help in any way I can. I would really like to redo mine. The concept is great, but there are a few flaws. I really didn't like the extra drag caused by the #25 chain. I guess it is too heavy and hard to pedal, not enough epower for the weight. I would always just hop on my other bikeE, it is light and fast enough just pedalling. It did climb quite well with assistance of course, 350 watt remember, and it worked good for my wife to pull the kids in the trailer. I would want it lighter (lipo and rc) with less drag (daul freewheels on the mid-drive) and more power 1500-2000 watts, with the gears set up right it could climb any paved hill you could find and run 45mph on the flats, all while being able to assist at any time! Your bike weighs about 34 lbs, with 7-10 lbs of battery and about 5-8lbs of motor and drive, it could be quite the nice E-bike E. The riding position on the Bike E is great, kind of chopper like.

wildharemtbkr wrote:That is NICE!! Yes I have been here, just lurking. I will help in any way I can. I would really like to redo mine. The concept is great, but there are a few flaws. I really didn't like the extra drag caused by the #25 chain. I guess it is too heavy and hard to pedal, not enough epower for the weight. I would always just hop on my other bikeE, it is light and fast enough just pedalling. It did climb quite well with assistance of course, 350 watt remember, and it worked good for my wife to pull the kids in the trailer. I would want it lighter (lipo and rc) with less drag (daul freewheels on the mid-drive) and more power 1500-2000 watts, with the gears set up right it could climb any paved hill you could find and run 45mph on the flats, all while being able to assist at any time! Your bike weighs about 34 lbs, with 7-10 lbs of battery and about 5-8lbs of motor and drive, it could be quite the nice E-bike E. The riding position on the Bike E is great, kind of chopper like.

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Did you ever swap the scooter motor for the brushless?? 1500-2000w seems a little excessive to me, but I might be wrong. I am thinking I would be happy with one freewheel at the mid-drive. I wish I was better at some of the computer drawing programs so I could illustrate what I mean, but I will try and describe what I am thinking about. I am slowly making my way through the broached freewheel thread and I think I have a plan, but I need to solve a couple of issues. I am looking at this picture of yours:





I am thinking that if I could attach a shimano splined freehub body to the lager sprocket then I could have one ENO freewheel with the chain going to the cranks, and have a fixed cog going to the rear gears. If I was pedaling, I'd still have to turn the motor (but having been riding hub motors up till now I am use to that), but I would not have spinning cranks when driving the bike with the motor. I think I would kind of like this setup actually because it would have similar characteristics to pedal assisting a hub motor. Now if I can just figure out how to attach the freehub body to the large sprocket I think I have a setup that would work for me. Any suggestions?

If you could make it freewheel at the freehub it would be perfect!! It would need to freewheel opposite what a normal freehub does. I.E. forward when you are pedalling and not at all when the motor is running. Mine has a one way bearing on the output of the planetary, it is not quite up to the task and has locked up a few times, it takes a tremendous amount of drag to turn the motor after 13:1 reduction (backwards). Just turning the #25 chain is quite a lot of drag. Have you ever rode into the wind? That is what it is like, you can never gain momentum. Attaching the freewheel and the sprocket is the tough part!! I called ecospeed to see what they would sell their piece for, I think it is made from powdered gold or something, they wanted $500 for the red piece and the sprocket!! I was like wow I will find another way. I did what was quickest and cheapest, it is not right though. One of the flaws of my bike E. I did get the gearing about perfect though. So if you broach the freewheel put it on the freehub, then put the cog, and mount the freehub onto a oneway on a shaft that may work.

I'm a little confused, why does one need anything more than a fixed cog (motor) and the freewheel stacked on top of it on the RH side? Wouldn't that allow for you to have a freewheel for the pedals and would that not work as a conventional set-up, or does it cause a problem when the motor is turning and the pedals are not?

LI-ghtcycle wrote:I'm a little confused, why does one need anything more than a fixed cog (motor) and the freewheel stacked on top of it on the RH side? Wouldn't that allow for you to have a freewheel for the pedals and would that not work as a conventional set-up, or does it cause a problem when the motor is turning and the pedals are not?

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I suppose that would work if I could do it, but the output shaft on these little motors are only 8mm dia. and 5mm deep. Not as much real estate as those 9C motors you're using. I am also not very educated on gear reductions, nor can I seem to find the kv of the 300w BMC motor I ended up getting (thought it was going to be the 600w, but no.) which makes proper gearing even harder to calculate. The whole gear reduction thing is making my head spin right now. :?

Well, since you are getting a cyclone, some of them already have a dual freewheel set-up as I described, maybe depending on which one you get it has a different "gear head" that allows for this, and if yours doesn't, then it could be a matter of getting a separate gear head that does.

Here is a gear calculator that really works well:

http://jimsitton.net/ratiocalc/

you can always backwards calc. the kv of the motor as long as you know what speed it should produce in a given wheel at a given voltage with the gearing.

The calc I gave you a link to allows you to put up to 3 stages of reduction as well as motor speed, tire size and individual gears of both the drive (motor) gears and the driven (jack shaft or wheel gears).

I saw somewhere that had the kv of the cyclone motors, I want to say it was around 75kv, but I'm not certain.

StudEbiker,

In response to your PM and after looking at what issues you have, here are my thoughts. If you don't have enough room on the output shaft of the motor for a chain setup to the pedals, you could have the motor output drive a jackshaft. That jack shaft would have one chain going to the pedals and one going to the rear wheel. You will need either a freewheel crank, or easier a freewheel on the jackshaft for the pedals. So you don't drive the motor when you pedal only, you will either need a freewheel or a one way bearing on either the output sprocket of the motor or the input sprocket of the jackshaft from the motor. If the freewheels are on the jackshaft, you won't need a splined one for the rear wheel as you will only have one chain going to the rear wheel. That will also allow you to use the bikes gears for the pedals or the motor.

On a medium or low power setup, freewheels should be just fine. Gwhy wants to have an electric trials bike. So needs little to no slack in the drive system so he can hold the bike in place with a little bit of throttle and launch it when needed with out hammering the drive when tacking up the slack in a freewheel.

I hope this helps some.

Clay

LI-ghtcycle wrote:Well, since you are getting a cyclone, some of them already have a dual freewheel set-up as I described, maybe depending on which one you get it has a different "gear head" that allows for this, and if yours doesn't, then it could be a matter of getting a separate gear head that does.

Here is a gear calculator that really works well:

http://jimsitton.net/ratiocalc/

you can always backwards calc. the kv of the motor as long as you know what speed it should produce in a given wheel at a given voltage with the gearing.

The calc I gave you a link to allows you to put up to 3 stages of reduction as well as motor speed, tire size and individual gears of both the drive (motor) gears and the driven (jack shaft or wheel gears).

I saw somewhere that had the kv of the cyclone motors, I want to say it was around 75kv, but I'm not certain.

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Not getting a Cyclone, it's a 300w BMC motor that is used in Currie/Lashout bikes. MrBill, who has done some good testing of these motors, told me this morning he thinks the Kv is between 131-135.

The currie/lashout drive is what I am using. The kv of 135 sounds about right. kv x volts = motor rpm. I am asuming 24v is that right?
So 135x24=3240. Times that by about 80% which is your operating rpm = 3240x.80=2592rpm. Now that needs reduced down to your pedal speed which is usually about 80 rpm. On mine I geared the pedal speed up by about 2.8:1 so 46 tooth crank sprocket driving a 16 tooth freewheel (now the pedals won't turn when the motor is running). So 80x2.8=224rpm at the jackshaft. My motor is connected to a planetary gear that reduces it by 4.7:1 so 2592/4.7=551 That drives a 19 tooth sprocket (#25) with a one way bearing in it (now the motor won't turn when I am pedalling) That turns a 54 tooth sprocket (#25) which reduces it another 2.8:1. 551/2.8=196 right close to the 224 that my pedals turn the shaft, that turns a 21 tooth cog fixed to the shaft(bike chain), which turns the rear wheel and all the gears. (in pratice I ran 36 volts with better effects). So the problems I had are the one way bearing is to small, and it needs to be in the 54 tooth sprocket to not turn the #25 chain when I am pedalling without the motor. It is still a bicycle, I like to pedal. The other problem is taking up the slack in the freewheel when using the motor whrr-clonk didn't like that. And the planetary and chain make quite a racket. So without the one way bearing your pedals turn all the gear-reduction and then the motor at 3000 rpm which is why you need the one way or 2nd freewheel.

That is some really helpful info. Thank you. I have another question for you though. I can't see very well from your pictures how the large #25 sprocket is attached to the backing plate (the same plate the motor is attached to). It might be helpful to see a closer picture of that.

It seems like this guy has built something similar to what I have in mind, but I still need to find a way for attaching this jackshaft to the backing plate so that it can rotate. Probably a very simple thing for those with experience, but I don't know what I would need to do that.

http://www.recumbents.com/wisil/jackshaft/jackshaft.htm

That first shimano freehub would work awesome!! Have Luke broach you 2 freewheels, bolt 1 to a #25 sprocket which the motor will drive, the cranks will turn the 2nd one, and then put a single speed cog to drive the rear wheel!! Use a bracket to bolt the motor, bike E and axle together, the axle would need supports on both sides, really quite easy!! I would get a curry planetary drive to hook the motor to. http://www.evdeals.com/USPD%20Drive%20Parts.htm That is my drive pretty much. I know it is hard to figure out how it goes together. I bought mine used and took it apart. Here is the planetary alone http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/PLG-360/PLANETARY-GEAR/1.html

Yep, that sounds like the way I was thinking that first freehub shaft would work too. Do you think there is any way to make the planetary work with out having to buy the expensive housing from EVDeals?? The planetary is so cheap it feels ridiculous to pay $200 for that housing! As far as attaching the shaft on both sides could it be a bracket shaped like this [ with some dropouts cut into it, if so then it seems like I can kinda see now how it will all come together.

I bought mine used for $50 for the whole bike. Yes that bracket would work perfect. Ya for $200 I would buy a schumaker drive, 2 reduction with the freewheels and sprockets done. It would be about $400 I think, attach an rc motor and your good. I want to make or have made a housing that would hold 2 of the planetaries, they are $55 from the manufacter, one cheap one, one from them, with a shaft with 2 bearings, a one way with the freewheel and sprocket mounted to it. http://endless-sphere.com/forums/download/file.php?id=32090

StudEbiker said:

That is some really helpful info. Thank you. I have another question for you though. I can't see very well from your pictures how the large #25 sprocket is attached to the backing plate (the same plate the motor is attached to). It might be helpful to see a closer picture of that.

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I you were replying to me, the #25 sprocket is a 90 tooth sprocket. You can get it online from most scooter part stores electric scooter parts or TNC scooters. It screws on to the same thread a s freewheel. I used freewheel adapters from Choppers US, but they have a13mm ID and it is hard to find a shaft for them. I had to have one turned down. Matt (recumpence) sells freewheel adapters with, I believe, 1/2 inch ID. THen you can just get a shaft from McMaster Carr. I have seen several people use a bike stem to hold the bearings and the jackshaft and attach it to the bike. Probably won't work for you as there is no tube on the bike E. It wouldn't be hard to make up a bracket to hold the bearings and the jackshaft though. I just had some tube welded to the plate the motor is bolted to and had the ends milled to fit my bearings. I have used a 16 tooth freewheel on the other side of the shaft another freewheel adapter.

Clay

Boy do I feel dumb. I thought I would get started pulling out the epoxy and wires from the controller area of the motor last night and thought that the little plastic piece that the halls are attached to was epoxy and promptly went about trying to pry it out with a screwdriver. So I pulled two of the halls out of place, I didn't break any of the wires, so it may be possible to put them back into place, but I mangled 'em up pretty good. On the positive note I did figure out a great way for heating the epoxy for removal. I set the motor on top of a hot plate and just let it slowly warm up till the epoxy softened and started pulling it out. It really works pretty well. If I can't get these halls back in place I may try running the motor sensorless and see how that works out. If it seems that this motor is beyond being salvaged because of my limited expertise then I will probably either go with a Koll or 600w BMC. I figured the good thing about starting with this motor was it was cheap and I could at least get my setup all done and if I wanted to switch to a larger motor later it would be a simple switch. Here's some photo evidence of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing.

Okay, after the learning experience with the 300w BMC, I have decided to go with a 400w Kollmorgen. I found one on Ebay NIB for $58.50 shipped. I think the Koll will be a better motor and was originally the one I had hoped to use anyway, so I can just chalk the halls fiasco up to experience. It seems like running these Koll motors from an ext. controller is the preferred way to run them, and I think initially I may want to use the 36v Headway pack that is currently on the TF bike so using an ext. controller will be required. The motor can get quite thin after removing the built in controller too which is nice.

Not much to update, but just wanting to post something. I got the Koll motor in and it sure is a sweet little motor! It even smells good. 8) Anyway, now I am trying to decide with setting it up to run off the internal controller at around 24v for now and save sum bux, or go ahead and get an Ecrazyman controller and go for 36v. If I go with 36V I will probably use the Headway pack I am already using so I wouldn't have to buy a new battery pack. However, once I get the Bike E goig I am probably going to sell the TF that the Headway pack is on right now and it is pretty well integrated into that bike so I am reluctant to strip it off the bike. I see where Cell_Man is selling some good packs, so I may go that route instead. Due to poverty and the tax man this build is probably going to go really slow, but I am trying to find some things to sell so I can keep the tax man happy and still have some money to spend on this project. On a side note, anyone interested in a 300W BMC motor with a blown controller and jacked hall sensors? I'll sell it to you cheap!




On another side note, wow, there has been an explosion of Bike E and Revive projects on ES the past couple of weeks!!