bulletproof freewheel
- Thread starter bobb
- Start date
mdd0127
100 kW
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2008
- Messages
- 1,084
Those freewheels only have a single row of bearings. I'd bet that your failures are a result of slight misalignment being amplified by the size of the sprocket. The freewheels were designed for much smaller sprockets. If you can get everything aligned perfectly, then maybe add a couple of support bearings to the outer edge of the sprocket to limit lateral movement, they should survive. If you take the freewheel apart, you can see where the center line of your sprocket sits in relation to the center line of the freewheel bearing. If it's off at all, the bearing is working harder than it was designed to.
If any manufacturers see this, we need a flanged, high quality freewheel with dual row bearings!
Edit: Just noticed the rear gear cluster. I'd put it in the rear gear that lines up exactly with the front sprocket and ride it in that gear only for a while. I bet the freewheel will survive in that configuration. The chain is pulling the front sprocket to the side when you're in any gear that's out of alignment. That's probably the source of your problems.
If any manufacturers see this, we need a flanged, high quality freewheel with dual row bearings!
Edit: Just noticed the rear gear cluster. I'd put it in the rear gear that lines up exactly with the front sprocket and ride it in that gear only for a while. I bet the freewheel will survive in that configuration. The chain is pulling the front sprocket to the side when you're in any gear that's out of alignment. That's probably the source of your problems.
The ENO freewheels aren't a good choice for running power through in freewheeling mode. They rely on the pawls and single bearing unit acting together, to form a proper structure.
The Tensile freewheel would be better for this: http://www.tartybikes.co.uk/product.php?product_id=398&category_id=16
The Tensile freewheel would be better for this: http://www.tartybikes.co.uk/product.php?product_id=398&category_id=16
Yes!mdd0127 said:
I really like those chainguards. Commercial or homemade?
boostjuice
10 kW
For the curious.... The insides of the newer Tensile 96 click 18T Trials freewheel (bearings, pawls, pawl-springs shared with the 60 click version).
-23 Ratchet points
-6 Pawls arranged in triple offset groups of synchronous pairs = 96 engagement points
-Double row open caged bearings (cup & cone)
-They are VERY LOUD, and due to the large amount of engagement points they sound much like a Chris King hub. A noisy bee like thats too noisy for me...
-Even when bedded in they are still very inefficient (the bearings must cut a channel through the painted white cups of the outer ring). They have the most drag of ANY freewheel i have ever hand-spun.
-However, they are STRONG, with VERY positive engagement due to strong pawl springs.
Why do we care? Quality built freewheels that feature double row bearings are few and far between. This design better handles angular loading when motor power is being transferred in the freewheeling state where unengaged pawls cant contribute to forming a rigid structure. Single bearing units like the Sickbikeparts/ENO suffer premature bearing failure from overhung loading caused by offset chainring/s.
The problem with integrating these into freewheeling chainring setups? There's no easily adaptable 5 bolt flange like the sickbikeparts freewheel. Mounting these to a freewheel adapter plate will in most cases require either bolting through the teeth or welding it to a chainring adapter plate. Drilling holes through the teeth themselves to attach bolts is only really possible with Carbide cutters and a rigid mill (case hardened steel).....other options include buggering around with ally on a CNC long enough...
boostjuice
10 kW
That was my initial thought too. I removed 4 of the 6 pawls in my 96 click version but it still doesn't spin as freely as an ENO (and still very loud). I played with bearing preload as well to but that still didn't make much difference. It's almost as if the cup channel is not machined to quite a large enough diameter for the bearing cage, so maybe there's excess friction between the balls and the cage they reside in as they try to move to a wider radius, but cant. The 60 click versions aren't painted as far as i can tell so maybe they've got more tolerance/play...only a guess, i don't really know.
That's a pity.
I might order a 60 click one, to play with.
They made a few prototypes of a 20t version, which would have been more convenient. It never went into production, though....
I experimented with weakening the springs slightly, on my ENO - that made it a bit quieter.
I might order a 60 click one, to play with.
They made a few prototypes of a 20t version, which would have been more convenient. It never went into production, though....
I experimented with weakening the springs slightly, on my ENO - that made it a bit quieter.
Ariane
10 kW
Hi Guys,
May be it's a stupid question but a big or two "one way bearing" can do this job or not ?
Good day!
Black Arrow
May be it's a stupid question but a big or two "one way bearing" can do this job or not ?
Good day!
Black Arrow
Yes, you could use a CSK40 with a threaded insert. I'm not sure how reliable the chinese ones are, though? Anybody? Stieber would be more than twice the price of an ENO freewheel 
I think the latest Elation drive uses a "one-way" for the crank freewheel.
I think the latest Elation drive uses a "one-way" for the crank freewheel.
Ariane
10 kW
Miles said:Yes, you could use a CSK40 with a threaded insert. I think the latest Elation drive uses a one-way for this. I'm not sure how reliable the chinese ones are, though? Anybody? Stieber would be more than twice the price of an ENO freewheel
Good to know but if the one way bearing last longer than an ENO freewheel is allot better no?
Good day!
Black Arrow
Quite a lot of work making adaptors, though. A combination of a "one-way" and an additional bearing, to create a proper structure, would be ideal.
The advantage of the Sick bikes unit is that it's plug & play. It's just a pity that the ENO wasn't conceived to work in the way that's required....
The advantage of the Sick bikes unit is that it's plug & play. It's just a pity that the ENO wasn't conceived to work in the way that's required....
Ariane
10 kW
Hi Guys,
Thanks' miles great information's :wink:
Bob I like to see more pictures about this ebike if its possible seem to be a great build
Good day!
Black Arrow
Thanks' miles great information's :wink:
Bob I like to see more pictures about this ebike if its possible seem to be a great build
Good day!
Black Arrow
mdd0127
100 kW
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2008
- Messages
- 1,084
I picked up a CSK-PP 35 from VXB and all I can say so far is that it's awesome. It was around $30. No side to side play at all. Nice seals. Heavy. I have tested it with a big breaker bar and all of my weight and it doesn't budge. I have not tested it on a bike yet though. The adapters will be pretty complicated to make but silent coasting will definitely be worth the effort!
Miles,
Excellent thought about the additional bearing structure in relation to the csk! My design incorporates the extra bearings but for axle stiffness/strength reasons instead. I hadn't thought about the additional bearing actually supporting the csk as a result. Since my hub will need a disc adapter on one side and the csk adapter on the other, and I need to center the hub in the dropouts because the wheel isn't dished, I got some thinner bearings that are the same id as the hub bearings to fit into the ends of the adapters. The 4 bearing structure when combined with the 20mm thru axle should make for a very stiff rear end. I'll post a pic when I get the adapters and axle done.
Miles,
Excellent thought about the additional bearing structure in relation to the csk! My design incorporates the extra bearings but for axle stiffness/strength reasons instead. I hadn't thought about the additional bearing actually supporting the csk as a result. Since my hub will need a disc adapter on one side and the csk adapter on the other, and I need to center the hub in the dropouts because the wheel isn't dished, I got some thinner bearings that are the same id as the hub bearings to fit into the ends of the adapters. The 4 bearing structure when combined with the 20mm thru axle should make for a very stiff rear end. I'll post a pic when I get the adapters and axle done.
That should be pretty stable! I used a CSK35P(Japanese one) on the hub of my Moulton.
As with the ENO, you have to be careful running power through the CSK series in freewheeling mode. If the force is too much out-of-line the bearing will be likely to wear prematurely (as you wrote earlier). That's when a second bearing will be most advantageous. In your case, as with mine, the sprags and bearing form a proper structure when under load.
I'm interested to see how reliable those Chinese one-ways are. In the Stieber catalaogue, it says that the nominal torque ratings (VXB list 140Nm for the CSK35) are half of the peak ratings.
As with the ENO, you have to be careful running power through the CSK series in freewheeling mode. If the force is too much out-of-line the bearing will be likely to wear prematurely (as you wrote earlier). That's when a second bearing will be most advantageous. In your case, as with mine, the sprags and bearing form a proper structure when under load.
I'm interested to see how reliable those Chinese one-ways are. In the Stieber catalaogue, it says that the nominal torque ratings (VXB list 140Nm for the CSK35) are half of the peak ratings.
Hi All
Long time since I have had time to do a post (Is that you I hear cheering KiM?? LOL)
With the release of V3 I am now also in a position to start offering parts to buyers who don't have an eLation system.
I thought this would be a good place to start. In V2 I was using an off the shelf CSK-PP35 with keyway on both rings. For V3 I have had a tailored Sprag clutch manufactured.
It is based around the CSK-PP35 but with dimenions more suited to bike components.
Detail:
OD 62mm
ID 1.37", 24TPI. This lines up with standard bike threads
Width 15mm. This is 1mm norrower than standard to allow to give 'perfect' fit to cranks able to accept freewheels.
Outer ring Keyway 8mm wide, 1mm deep
Combined bearing and sprag with seals on each side
They have saved me a lot of time and cost avoiding keys and 'special parts' being made, and so I felt worth the cost. Some on here may not agree, going with the lower cost due to no consideration to valueing their own time, since it is a hobby.
I can sell at AUD$50 plus postage. As an idea, postage to USA or UK could be as low as AUD$12 by standard air mail.
NOTE:
Once the bearing is on, it is not the easiest to remove as there are no tags, etc to allow easy undoing. I considered this at time of design, but felt for eLation needs it was not needed as we sell the crank 'spider' as a complete unit. It does not mean it can't be removed (awkwardly during assembly), but is pretty much there to stay once operational. For the time being, based on eLation's needs this is not needed to change. However, if there is enough interest I can review this choice and have a batch done to accomodate removal.
At present for my prototyping needs I uses a grinding wheel to cut a couple of goove on inner ring edge to allow for tools to remove
Long time since I have had time to do a post (Is that you I hear cheering KiM?? LOL)
With the release of V3 I am now also in a position to start offering parts to buyers who don't have an eLation system.
I thought this would be a good place to start. In V2 I was using an off the shelf CSK-PP35 with keyway on both rings. For V3 I have had a tailored Sprag clutch manufactured.
It is based around the CSK-PP35 but with dimenions more suited to bike components.
Detail:
OD 62mm
ID 1.37", 24TPI. This lines up with standard bike threads
Width 15mm. This is 1mm norrower than standard to allow to give 'perfect' fit to cranks able to accept freewheels.
Outer ring Keyway 8mm wide, 1mm deep
Combined bearing and sprag with seals on each side
They have saved me a lot of time and cost avoiding keys and 'special parts' being made, and so I felt worth the cost. Some on here may not agree, going with the lower cost due to no consideration to valueing their own time, since it is a hobby.
I can sell at AUD$50 plus postage. As an idea, postage to USA or UK could be as low as AUD$12 by standard air mail.
NOTE:
Once the bearing is on, it is not the easiest to remove as there are no tags, etc to allow easy undoing. I considered this at time of design, but felt for eLation needs it was not needed as we sell the crank 'spider' as a complete unit. It does not mean it can't be removed (awkwardly during assembly), but is pretty much there to stay once operational. For the time being, based on eLation's needs this is not needed to change. However, if there is enough interest I can review this choice and have a batch done to accomodate removal.
At present for my prototyping needs I uses a grinding wheel to cut a couple of goove on inner ring edge to allow for tools to remove
I might as well show the completed crank system while I have chance to post.
Based around 5 hole 74/110 PCD standard. This will allow rings in size from 24T to 51T (and larger if suited to 110PCD)
Cranks forged alloy 17omm for tapered spindle.
Spider Al6061 T6
I can also get a variety of crank lengths ranging from 150 to 175mm (from memory) and with ISIS fitting.
Cost for set as shown in pics is $250, again saving a lot of time for people without access to full blown workshop.
Freight USA and UK starting from AUD$40 for air mail
Based around 5 hole 74/110 PCD standard. This will allow rings in size from 24T to 51T (and larger if suited to 110PCD)
Cranks forged alloy 17omm for tapered spindle.
Spider Al6061 T6
I can also get a variety of crank lengths ranging from 150 to 175mm (from memory) and with ISIS fitting.
Cost for set as shown in pics is $250, again saving a lot of time for people without access to full blown workshop.
Freight USA and UK starting from AUD$40 for air mail
AussieJester
1 TW
elation said:
Nice crank would prefer that to a freewheel myself...
KiM
visuthdy
100 mW
Has anybody on ES used the eLation V3 freewheel setup from above? I'm looking for a heavy duty setup for use with Matt's drive unit for use on rode and can handle the off rode abuse on mountain bike trails. Is the ENO freewheel from sick bike parts still the best option? I had planed on using Matt's disk brake adapter on the rear wheel, now I've decided to put on a fat bike that has 100mm bb and surly wide tires. I figured my only option is freewheel cranks setup. Will it even work on standard length or do I need to get longer spindle because of the freewheel. I would love to hear other options too. thanks.
visuthdy
100 mW
Hi Miles,
Yes, I did look at that thread. At first, I was going to go with the ENO freewheel. But after reading the thread, it looks like people had issues with both the dicta and ENO freewheel. That's why I ask about the eLation V3 freewheel setup.
Yes, I did look at that thread. At first, I was going to go with the ENO freewheel. But after reading the thread, it looks like people had issues with both the dicta and ENO freewheel. That's why I ask about the eLation V3 freewheel setup.
