International Ebike Racing Club (IEBC) - thoughts?

tritonwow

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Jun 7, 2009
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All,
I'm sitting here watching four top fuel dragsters run down the track (on the boob tube; not sure if I'm into it yet) thinking about our passion. This is of course after watching SBK and F1 earlier today (I'm deprived of racing channels in Japan). Anyhow, I'd think it would be something if we could get a set of "standards" together for us to follow (the basis of this thread). My thoughts:

Types of racing starting with (we can work up others as the need arises):
Drag
Autocross

Classes: Mind boggling to me. We'd need an open class for LFP, Methy, etc who are at the cutting edge. We'd need some sort of "budget" class for the majority (we want people to migrate to this mode of transport not be put off by F1-like budget requirements)

If standards are set we could easily set up Regional, National, and International "tracks". While we may not intially have national/international meets we could easily compare regional standings to declare an overall seasonal winner (seasonal is relative as our brothers down under are on opposite seasons).

Just thought I'd start the thread for discussion.

Triton
 
Thoughts...well past member Safe has been working on this pretty much since he got into e-bikes some 4 years ago
most laughed at his bike design (personally i and a handful of others here didnt i loved the bike itself, have issues with the man) Now with
new influx of ex-racers there might be some more interest but i think the majority are content to build comfortable
reliable 'get to and from work' syle bikes rather than full blown race-e-bikes like would be needed to be successful on a track

Best of luck with it though i would be into it myself if there was local interest enough alas there is only a handful of us here in W.A

KiM
 
AussieJester said:
Thoughts...well past member Safe has been working on this pretty much since he got into e-bikes some 4 years ago
most laughed at his bike design (personally i and a handful of others here didnt i loved the bike itself, have issues with the man) Now with
new influx of ex-racers there might be some more interest but i think the majority are content to build comfortable
reliable 'get to and from work' syle bikes rather than full blown race-e-bikes like would be needed to be successful on a track

Best of luck with it though i would be into it myself if there was local interest enough alas there is only a handful of us here in W.A

KiM

I hope I've not put a bull's eye on my back! I'm a post Safe-era member, have seen him mentioned (and pics of that bike), but didn't realize he was also working to get Ebike racing off the ground.

I was in NT last year and was to go to Sydney next month but I ended up in school instead. Darwin reminded me of Florida/Lower Alabama in the US
 
tritonwow said:
I hope I've not put a bull's eye on my back! I'm a post Safe-era member, have seen him mentioned (and pics of that bike), but didn't realize he was also working to get Ebike racing off the ground.

Nooo not at all, I seriously doubt there could be another 'safe-like' individual haha... He came up with the acronym E.B.R.R which
stands for Electric Bicyle Road Racing...thaaat however along with alot of talk is about as far as it ever got, he had big plans to
make a bike that would comply to the Federal laws of the U.S.of.A ie. 750watt motor output, although he even
argues its 750watt at the rear wheel so hes 'alloed' a 1000watt motor, the guy can't be told, hes ALWAYS right and can
do so because he makes up his own rules as he goes along LoL.. You may have more success these days
we have been Safe-less here for ~12 months now thankfully, there has been a influx of new members since
then a big movement in the non-hub motored bikes which are geared more towards high performance
rather than a bike that dawdles along and glows red at the sight of a slight incline, so you may have alot
more luck than he did, well..as long as your not a social retard like Safe LoL So your in Sydney now are you
or back in the States? If in NSW there is a few ES members from there i know of i think you could get
Hyena interested hes always keen for a run, long as you don't mind racing a cross dressing frock motor user :mrgreen:

All the best

KiM
 
I would totally be down for a fun class race. I'm in no way serious about racing but I would love to do a few laps around a track thing. I would even be willing to travel pretty far for it. When I get my passport and 40-60ah of batteries for a road trip. My 48v and 35a can preform admirably. Faster than most of the ebikes in my area. Zenin and Zoot could probably
top me though.

*Edit* I am planning on building a 72v 50 to 60a bike with a focus on speed. But that's not a commuter bike and I'm not willing to ship it nor do I have my license for a road trip. So Seattle is pretty much the farthest I could get that one.
 
I'd be keen as mustard if something got off the ground in Sydney, alas I dont think there's enough people here with ebikes to make it work.
The standard 1/4 mile is probably too long for most of our bikes, I reckon smaller strips that run 1/8ths would be good though.

I guess there's always "illegal street drag racing" :p
If it was track racing, that could easily be set up on the street too.

Only cops on push bikes would be eligable to chase us :lol:

bike-cop.gif
 
Hyena said:
, I reckon smaller strips that run 1/8ths would be good though.

All ANDRA 1/4 mile tracks are setup to run 1/8 mile
thats the distance junior dragsters race over :)

I'll bring the tea and scones so i don't get hungry waiting for yout to finish
the run with your frock motor :mrgreen:

KiM
 
AussieJester said:
So your in Sydney now are you or back in the States?

I'm in school about 100km from Tuscon (where the death race will be held) but I live in Japan (and travel that side of the world). I'll be at the death race whether ES has racers or not.

AussieJester said:
If in NSW there is a few ES members from there i know of i think you could get
Hyena interested hes always keen for a run, long as you don't mind racing a cross dressing frock motor user :mrgreen:

You guys crack me up with the banter. It's like you've known each other for decades...
 
Bannnter it was with Safe. It was so fun to discuss the economy with him, he was clueless what poor was like. So easy to set him going, ya just knew he was watching Fox news or listening to Rush Limbaugh all day. Ya just knew he was heading for banned.

Safe had big dreams for Ebike racing, but maybe just local baby steps would be the best way to start. Approach local bike racing clubs, and find out if perhaps you could tack an ebike race on to the slow end of a street race allready happening. At the Tour of the Gila for instance, one day is a closed course criterium around downtown. Since the streets are blocked off, presumably the use of bikes illegal on the street would be ok? On a race that happens on open road of course, bikes would have to be limited to 750 watts. Then it would end up being a pedaling contest in the end, with everybody in the race on the same 9c motor, 22 amp controller, 36v battery. Untill a rc motor bike showed up and kicked ass. Most likely to occur of course in a town with a real ebike bike shop that could help with the politics.

None of this of course, would be quite as fun as watching a bunch of gas bikes lose to electric in a 6 mile heat. :mrgreen: Definitely wanting to get a good welder now and start playing with frames that can pack a lot of lipo low down by the crank for next year. We gotta build LFP a frame that can carry enough lipo to win the death race next year.

I'm still there, at the Death Race. I'll have the range, the not crashing part, we'll see. 30 years ago I could drag a knee pretty good. But the balls have definitely shrunk. I've been looking at my cornering, and in 30 feet wide like the track is, I'm not getting around em at 30mph at all. If I brake, then it takes awhile to get going again. I'll be running about 1250 watts continuous till the motor melts 25 amps is about all I dare pull outa the ping. Haven't drilled the vent holes in the motor yet.
 
Here is my aproach to creating a racing scene:
I know there is a guy selling these gas bike conversions on the north end of town (the "money" side of town) seen him hawking bikes on craigs list.

1st, find out when the local kart track has a day to host a fun run. Maybe get a bike shop or cycle shop to promote the day.

Contact the guy selling motored bikes. He may have a customers list, or I will go challange all of guys who just cruze the parking ovals in the state parks. (we have a huge cruzing scene in West Mi along the lake front state parks north & south of me) I am thinking someone will show up. If the Kart track is as open to the events as the P1 track seems to be. A new grass roots racing class is born.

super cheap to participate,Low speeds=good safty,a few simple rules for a "stock class" maby some age groups when it becomes nessisary.
& the unlimited class with a few more safty rules.

E-bikes classes:
frock 1 (48 volt max)
experimental-(100v max)simple rules on battery enclosures to contain the lipo fires :twisted:
 
amberwolf said:
What about checking with NEDRA to have them add these kinds of things to their events?

I would love if NEDRA could add some E-bicycle class!!

I am still hoping to see that in the next years!!

From now.. The guys at any drag race event was interested and encouraging in regard to my project.. so it's at least a good new!

Some drag racer also asked me for ultra light weight 12v and 16V Lithium battery.

Summer 2010 should be interesting!!

[youtube]nrPK_cLsO6Q[/youtube]

[youtube]ASxM8b6dFAE[/youtube]

Doc
 
I'm interested. Here are my thoughts, not in any particular order.

In any form of racing, there is always two constituencies - the fun racers and the competitive ones who take it seriously. The trick is to work out which group to cater for, or how to cater for both groups. For instance, if you publish a set of rules, the first group will be upset if you then enforce them, or aren't flexible on the day. On the other hand, one of the worst things you can do to upset a competitive racer is to publish a rule and then do something different on the day. This is probably the aspect that needs most thinking about - basically how to get a broad appeal, without losing the key players.

Forget Road Racing. It raises all sorts of legal complications, and will make it all but impossible to get an international system together. It also means the organisation is spread out over a large area and communication is a problem. Roads are only good for treasure hunts and endurance events.

Drag racing. For some reason this is popular in the colonies. Over here we can't understand why. Maybe its because all the action occurs in front of the grandstand near the hot dog stands. A lot of people in Europe think its because people in the USA haven't worked out how to make vehicles go round corners. :D

The most promising format so far looks like racing on kart circuits.

A hill climb is another possible format. It is a popular format for cars in the UK and there is a number of tarmac hill climb venues.

Off road hill climbs or trials might be a good format for electric mountain bikes.

We need to distinguish between electric bikes and electric motorcycles. Keep it simple, for instance, functioning pedals and a maximum weight.

At this stage, let's not get into classes based on power, armature current, type or size of battery, etc. These are all too difficult. Keep to simple things like hub motor vs other types or different weight limits or bikes and trikes

Distance/duration. 10 minutes is enough. 20 to 30 minutes is too long. What I have most experience in is hovercraft racing, and there we have races of 10 mins or less and have lots of them at a race meeting. Multiple races is better for the guy who has a breakdown or a crash because he gets another chance. Its also more interesting for spectators as they don't need a commentator to explain it to them.

Having multiple short races at a meeting instead of one long one could also bring battery charging into the equation.

One really neat thing about competing in an electric bike race is that you can hear what the crowd is shouting. You don't normally get that in motorsport.

Nick
 
I want to race against cars. eg Across town with the only rule being that both have to stay within the speed limit. Other than that, turn downhill racing into a lap instead of loading the bikes in a pickup to get to the top.
 
Tiberius said:
I'm interested. Here are my thoughts, not in any particular order.

In any form of racing, there is always two constituencies - the fun racers and the competitive ones who take it seriously. The trick is to work out which group to cater for, or how to cater for both groups. For instance, if you publish a set of rules, the first group will be upset if you then enforce them, or aren't flexible on the day. On the other hand, one of the worst things you can do to upset a competitive racer is to publish a rule and then do something different on the day. This is probably the aspect that needs most thinking about - basically how to get a broad appeal, without losing the key players.

100% agreed. Rules need to be set in stone, non-amendable after a certain date before the race, and the tech-inspection can make ZERO exceptions, or it's not a race worth racing in. Now, anything you can sneak past tech inspection, or anything not specifically banned by the rules is legit for the race IMO. Likewise, if someone wants to call someone out who has all ready passed through tech-inspection, they need to post up a sizable chunk of cash, even for E-bikes, at least $200-300 to call someone out for an additional tech-inspection/tear-down. As with all call-outs, if the tech inspection can't find the claimed violation, then the call-out money goes to the guy who got called out as an inconvenience/lost-prep-time fee.

Forget Road Racing. It raises all sorts of legal complications, and will make it all but impossible to get an international system together. It also means the organisation is spread out over a large area and communication is a problem. Roads are only good for treasure hunts and endurance events.
In the states, we call road racing what happens when cars run courses on tracks that have corners in both directions. The $20,000-$50,000 track rental costs would be hard to bare for an E-bike race.

I'm guessing you mean street racing, which I agree would be an unneeded and poor idea for e-bikes races.



Drag racing. For some reason this is popular in the colonies. Over here we can't understand why. Maybe its because all the action occurs in front of the grandstand near the hot dog stands. A lot of people in Europe think its because people in the USA haven't worked out how to make vehicles go round corners. :D
It's because Europe is filled with 99.99999% of cars that accelerate like a slug, and apparently lacks either the skills or desire to change it. :) :) :) :)

It's not about the hotdogs. Drag racing is maybe 10% about racing, and 90% about creative design, and months and months of work trying to seek out and apply every last little creative 0.5% helping advantage you can use your imagination and physics to come up with.

Drag racing is a race between the crewchief and engine development team on one side, and the crewchief and engine development team on the other side. It's 90% a technology/engineering competition, and 10% driver, who's only job is to not f*ck up the launch or miss a gear. It's kinda like a the opposite of road race, which is nearly entirely about driver skills.




The most promising format so far looks like racing on kart circuits.
I just got off the phone with my favorite local track to race Karts on. The normal rate is $900/hour for track rental, but he said it could do $700/hour for me because we're buddies.

I think being nearly silent, and non-destructive to the pavement, that we could just setup in some large parking lot we got permission to race in. This is how the local auto-cross clubs do it, and it seems to be an economical option for them.



A hill climb is another possible format. It is a popular format for cars in the UK and there is a number of tarmac hill climb venues.
I would LOVE a hill climb :)

Off road hill climbs or trials might be a good format for electric mountain bikes.

We need to distinguish between electric bikes and electric motorcycles. Keep it simple, for instance, functioning pedals and a maximum weight.

At this stage, let's not get into classes based on power, armature current, type or size of battery, etc. These are all too difficult. Keep to simple things like hub motor vs other types or different weight limits or bikes and trikes

I agree 100%. Maybe under 70lbs as-ridden, functional pedals, and it races as an electric bicycle.

Distance/duration. 10 minutes is enough. 20 to 30 minutes is too long. What I have most experience in is hovercraft racing, and there we have races of 10 mins or less and have lots of them at a race meeting. Multiple races is better for the guy who has a breakdown or a crash because he gets another chance. Its also more interesting for spectators as they don't need a commentator to explain it to them.
Agreed. Even an 8 minute race in a kart is physically and mentally exhausting, and begins to get repetitive for spectators.


Having multiple short races at a meeting instead of one long one could also bring battery charging into the equation.

One really neat thing about competing in an electric bike race is that you can hear what the crowd is shouting. You don't normally get that in motorsport.
lol, there was a time at the street races I wished I could have heard everyone shouting "FIRE" "FIRE" "FIRE" at me, but my open header was way too loud... lol. Costly.
Nick
 
Very tight circuits with close racing is probably the best way to get crowd appeal. I competed at club level in hill climbs, sprints and road rally events years ago, and, although they were interesting for competitors there is sod all in terms of crowd appeal. Look at F1, when it gets processional people lose interest, when you get close racing the interest comes back.

Any race has to not only be tailored to the best attributes of electric bikes; it also has to consider how to attract interest. Drag racing is all about noise and a short, intense spectacle, with a quick result. Motorcycle racing is a mix of extreme courage, breathtakingly close racing and action on all the tight corners. F1 is really just about technology and strategy, with drivers almost taking second place.

Ebikes are quiet, so they are never going to have the impact of something like drag, speedway or kart racing. They are eco-friendly, so might attract interest from that community, maybe in the form of sponsorship. Ebike endurance is limited, so any race will be a combination of power, rider skill, handling and efficiency.

So, what would be the one thing that would make such a race a spectator sport? I think the answer is probably a mix of really close racing, on a tight circuit, with technical exploitation of the rules, a bit like F1.

What I'm not sure about is how to make up for the lack of noise. I'm sure that this is a major crowd puller for other forms of motor sport, yet for ebikes we'd almost want to penalise the noisy ones and reward those that are the quietest, if we want to maximise on the eco credentials (noise being just another form of pollution).

Jeremy
 
liveforphysics said:
Tiberius said:
Forget Road Racing. It raises all sorts of legal complications, and will make it all but impossible to get an international system together. It also means the organisation is spread out over a large area and communication is a problem. Roads are only good for treasure hunts and endurance events.
In the states, we call road racing what happens when cars run courses on tracks that have corners in both directions. The $20,000-$50,000 track rental costs would be hard to bare for an E-bike race.

I'm guessing you mean street racing, which I agree would be an unneeded and poor idea for e-bikes races.

Luke, having once lived in Massachusetts I thought I was completely bi-lingual. Obviously not if I didn't get the difference between road and street. Sorry.

Fades into distance, singing "Streetrunner, Streetrunner, can you hear us out in Needham.... next to 50,000 Watts of power"
 
Jeremy Harris said:
They are eco-friendly, so might attract interest from that community, maybe in the form of sponsorship. Ebike endurance is limited, so any race will be a combination of power, rider skill, handling and ... I think the answer is probably a mix of really close racing, on a tight circuit, with technical exploitation of the rules ... What I'm not sure about is how to make up for the lack of noise. I'm sure that this is a major crowd puller for other forms of motor sport, yet for ebikes we'd almost want to penalise the noisy ones and reward those that are the quietest, if we want to maximise on the eco credentials (noise being just another form of pollution). Jeremy


Hey, maybe at the next Burning Man ....http://www.burningman.com/ :twisted: )
 
I think Ebike racing would have about the same appeal, at least in the US, as regular bike racing. I E zero. It would whip up a crowd about like sailing races.

It would be strictly for our own enjoyment, pretty much forever I think, eliminating any chance for sponsorship of track time in the near future.

Which is why some kind of race on a road course, already paid for and closed for a regular bike race came to my mind. Usually that is a criterium around downtown, maybe a half mile or mile of streets blocked off for the race, and with luck, the marbles on the corners swept up. Once you go open road, then it will suck since we'd be stuck with street legal machines. Kinda hard to race with a speed limit eh?

The parking lot idea has a lot of merit though, especially if there is a big box store that's closed handy with decent pavement. At one point our town used to have one set up with a course for teaching motorcycle driving that would have been perfect.

On a local, just a few guys get together basis, I bet you could go to a school parking lot on Sunday and with a few cones, set up a racecourse, and be gone before anybody noticed. Sort of a fast and furious, street racing location annouced by twitter kinda deal.
 
i think the best ebike should be able to do

on road/off road/hills/snow/dirt/quick acceleration

maybe a course that has all those things would be nuts..

finding a spot isn't a problem, bringing all the ebikers together is a whole other story.

-steve
 
I see no way that this is ever going to be a "spectator" sport
when was the last time you saw a (motor sport) amature race of any kind on the television?
We have an abundance of circle tracks around the state (auto short track-mostly dirt) & they only get public access tv to film the events with 1 camera & it really blow's.

If any racing is going to start it will need to happen in back yards & small time kart tracks, between die hard enthusiests like we few here.
You tell a few friends & they tell a few friends & soon you have a crew who are ready to compete on like equipment. prolly on the streets already (I think the 1sy spooky tooth runs were gumball rally's in tucson)

I will use RC car racing as an example:
The 5 or so die hards in the area bought some carpet & started racing in the local mall so people could see it first hand.
It grew exponentialy into a real club & the hobby shops loved it. We would get 100 guys on a sunday afternoon. Before long we had an international competition in grand rapids. (1988 world 12th scale championship IIRC)
This is pure amature stuff & the only sponcers are in that niche industry.
That is how it starts.

The tracks would have to make money so there are entry fees to race, & a gate fee so you can watch yourself racing. :shock:
 
Yep.

Who's got a 5 acre backyard for a dirt oval? Flat track roundy round on dirt is kinda fun. All about a drag race to the first corner and then don't crash. Perfect for those allready building electric dirt motorcycles out of DH bikes for sure. Or backyard motocross if your yard has some bumps.

In my town there are some abandoned gravel pits that make great places to go roundy round. Nobody would even know we were out there. A few cones, drag a driveway smoother around for an afternoon and viola! A free dirt track.
 
How about full fairings with strong roll cage protection, eliminate all rules other than safety requirements, and make it like battle bots with human occupants and thow in a finish line to cross? A combination geek and wrestling crowd might be interesting.
 
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