Prospective purchase; have questions

Hello there, I'm Will, a long-time reader, registered today, not very electronically-inclined; I'm more of a mechanics guy. I'm getting both physically and emotionally tired of riding MTA here in NYC. I've had this idea for some time - to commute to school and work via other means. An electric bicycle seems to be the best choice, financially-wise anyway. This way, I won't have the trouble finding parking at work or school, can carry relatively heavy groceries and still save considerably.
A cyclone kit seems great, but I have a few questions.
1. Would it be correct if I said that a 48V-motor requires a battery that supplies 48 Volts and a 48V-controller?
2. Because both money and power a vital factor, If I buy the lowest combination possible (currently it's 250W "1 chainwheel Kit" + Berman power 8AH 24V Lifepo4, which goes for $560 as a kit), will I be able to swap it with maybe this motor? http://www.cloudelectric.com/product_p/mo-ptx-0909.htm. The reason for the more powerful motor is due to the amount of stuff I may be carrying (school books + some groceries + maybe an extra 8Ah battery).
3. Because I wouldn't want law enforcement to be on my ass every time they see an extra cog or a chain, how does the 3-piece crankset work? I believe it's shown here: http://www.cyclone-tw.com/images/3c17.jpg
4. With the upcoming winter, will it be easier on the motor, in terms of cooling, harder due to additional weight of the winter gear, or both?

--Thanks, Will.

The controller determines what battery voltage you need. Not the motor. Personally, I chose this and bought battery separately.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/48V-1000W-Electric-Bike-Engine-Rear-Motor-Bicycle-Kit-/160655006876
Just read of too many problems with Cyclone kits.

In nyc, you need stealth. For many, that means a small diameter rear hubmotor tucked behind large diameter gear clusters and disk brakes on the left. They do make some noise, if it's a gearmotor like a mac or BMC. How you ride can make them quiet. The really cheap ones are smaller and lower powered. The less throttle you put into them, the quieter they are, silent when the throttle is off, so coast and pedal by a cop with big ears. Conceal the battery easily in a backpack or rack bag.

Chain drives sound like, a motor driving a chain. You'll be noticed for sure.

Here's a deal on a tiny gearmotor. http://www.e-bikekit.com/shop/index.php?p=product&id=138&parent=0

That's a pretty darn complete kit with close to you CS. Ebikekit tries hard to have the best most complete kits.

Straight from China can be cheapest, but CS is pretty far away. http://www.emissions-free.com/catalog/i16.html

Cellman has the deal on the higher powered gearmotors, the Mac.

wesnewell said:

The controller determines what battery voltage you need. Not the motor. Personally, I chose this and bought battery separately.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/48V-1000W-Electric-Bike-Engine-Rear-Motor-Bicycle-Kit-/160655006876
Just read of too many problems with Cyclone kits.

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dogman said:

In nyc, you need stealth. For many, that means a small diameter rear hubmotor tucked behind large diameter gear clusters and disk brakes on the left. They do make some noise, if it's a gearmotor like a mac or BMC. How you ride can make them quiet. The really cheap ones are smaller and lower powered. The less throttle you put into them, the quieter they are, silent when the throttle is off, so coast and pedal by a cop with big ears. Conceal the battery easily in a backpack or rack bag.

Chain drives sound like, a motor driving a chain. You'll be noticed for sure.

Here's a deal on a tiny gearmotor. http://www.e-bikekit.com/shop/index.php?p=product&id=138&parent=0

That's a pretty darn complete kit with close to you CS. Ebikekit tries hard to have the best most complete kits.

Straight from China can be cheapest, but CS is pretty far away. http://www.emissions-free.com/catalog/i16.html

Cellman has the deal on the higher powered gearmotors, the Mac.

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Thanks for the links, guys.
@wesnewell: strange, I read on this forum that properly and/or not-abused Cyclones run just fine. People seem to be pretty happy with them. The 48V, 1000W one appears to have gears - how does that work, is that a hybrid?

@both: These setups both appear to be hubs. I believe I need lots of power for all the hauling I intend to do (think books + gear + groceries). Basically, I want to avoid getting a car or even a ZipCar. Yes, I totally agree with dogman in that I need stealth. I've been thinking of putting a little bracket over the motor's cog to somewhat conceal its presence. I definitely want to coast whenever I see any cop - inside or outside the car.

At the moment, I don't think I need something like this (the bag over the frame thingy, where the aforementioned police might just pick on me everywhere I go to see if that bag has any questionable material in it):

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/download/file.php?id=55724

This one seem quite a bit neater, but I'd have to work on concealing and securing that motor, big time.

http://img193.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cimg7099.jpg

The hub idea sounds good, provided a decently-priced setup. The fewer eyes, wondering if that was a motorcycle that just passed them, the better. Also, I think securing a bike with a hub is way easier because the hub is inside the wheel - less things to worry about when securing it on a rack/campus/store. Because I want power (possibly for some hills as well), if I get two hubs (~2KW together?) and somehow connect them to the same battery (I guess it'll have to be a decent-capacity one), controller and throttle, would I get a doubled output or a balanced load or any benefit at all? I mentioned that motor earlier, which is 48V and about 4HP - ~3KW? How would that work?

And thanks again, guys.

Don't look like a "scooter" eBike and majority of NYPD won't see motor, extra gears, etc. If they have that knowledge, if they care and if you're doing something stupid you're gonna get their attention no matter how cleverly disguised you think you may be. And don't forget Manhattan is wall-to-wall CCTV so they're watching ALL THE TIME...

I've been riding various electric stuff in NYC for 5 years and IMO quiet and reasonable speed is the best "stealth" - for me that's a DD motor and cruising around 20 MPH. I also think you'll look less electric by keeping the handlebars clean and uncluttered - I never need gearing in NYC so I never bother with shifters/cables. Leave it in tallest gear and let the motor do what I need for grades.

When you break down (most likely flat tire) you're gonna be walking/pushing it to a subway platform anyway. Pedaling a heavy, dead ebike, even with all the gearing in the world is just not practical IMO.

Good luck and welcome to the journey!

Well, now you got me all confused. You start out talking aobut 250w 24v stuff, and there I am thinking you just want to be helped to ride 15 mph and not look like a motorcycle.

Then you ask about dual hub 2000w setups. Well, all I can say is fast isn't stealthy. All you need is one hubmotor to go 40+ mph at 4000w. Maybe you want the same thing as GCinDC? A rig that can run from cops, dodging through the gridlock too fast to follow?

Chances are, you'd be pretty happy with a Mac, in the speed model. Run it on 48v, have 30 mph for sure. 1500 watts is plenty of power to haul stuff. If you don't want speed, then the mac in the slower torque model. Getting more expensive by the minuite though. But that is a pretty darn practical setup a lot of guys are pretty happy with.

Here's my cargo hauler. It runs on 800w with a direct drive motor.

Will, I've heard from other people too that in NYC you definitely want to be as stealthy as possible. An external chain drive is NOT that. I also think a rear hub motor would be a better choice, and maybe even also install disk brakes so that the rotor on the left side will make the hub motor even less noticeable.

I'm also not clear on whether you want a high speed monster or something to haul stuff around... If you want to haul weight and climb hills easier, you can get a slower geared motor, for instance a MAC 10-turn (10T) or even the 12T extra-torque motor or a BMC V2T. Or you can get a faster wind motor (and push more amps through it) and/or run higher voltage if speed is more important to you. For more stealth, a direct-drive motor will be quieter than the gear drive although a little less efficient. For a controller, you'll want one that works with your selected motor at your selected voltage (probably 36V or 48V), and also supplies enough amps... To get decent power I would think you would want to be able to pull 20 amps or more.

Speaking of amps, in selecting a battery, make sure you are educated a little bit about C rate. How many amps you can pull from the battery without damaging it is related to the amp-hour (capacity) rating of the battery. This relationship is called the C rate. Some cheaper batteries can only provide 1C, and a 1C battery with 8 Ah capacity will only give you 8 amps continously without harm to the battery. That's part of the reason some people go with the high-performance lipo batteries -- they have really high C rate, so you can put in a lightweight smaller-capacity pack and still draw a lot of peak current from it. If you're building a bigger hauling bike, you could put a 20Ah pack on it of cheap LiFePO4 ("ping") or practically whatever batteries you have at hand, and not worry as much about the discharge rate. But if you want a SMALL battery pack with big amps, you'll need to go with lipo or "nice" lifepo4 such as A123's.

Hello there, I'm Will, a long-time reader, registered today, not very electronically-inclined; I'm more of a mechanics guy. I'm getting both physically and emotionally tired of riding MTA here in NYC. I've had this idea for some time - to commute to school and work via other means. An electric bicycle seems to be the best choice, financially-wise anyway. This way, I won't have the trouble finding parking at work or school, can carry relatively heavy groceries and still save considerably.
A cyclone kit seems great, but I have a few questions.

Click to expand...

That's a lot of questions, but a really good start if you are a noob. The other ES members are leading you in the right direction about stealth, etc.

1. Would it be correct if I said that a 48V-motor requires a battery that supplies 48 Volts and a 48V-controller?

Click to expand...

Yes, but many controllers have a voltage range so you could say run a 36v cyclone on 48v. The controller is usually programmed with a lvc for the battery type voltage you are planning on using. I know that the cyclone 36v and 48v controller are the same (the last I knew)

2. Because both money and power a vital factor, If I buy the lowest combination possible (currently it's 250W "1 chainwheel Kit" + Berman power 8AH 24V Lifepo4, which goes for $560 as a kit), will I be able to swap it with maybe this motor? http://www.cloudelectric.com/product_p/mo-ptx-0909.htm. The reason for the more powerful motor is due to the amount of stuff I may be carrying (school books + some groceries + maybe an extra 8Ah battery).

Click to expand...

The motor in the link is a brushed motor and therefore won't go with the cyclone brushless motor and bldc controller.

3. Because I wouldn't want law enforcement to be on my ass every time they see an extra cog or a chain, how does the 3-piece crankset work? I believe it's shown here: http://www.cyclone-tw.com/images/3c17.jpg

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There are numerous post on ES that will help you setup the 3 piece crankset.
I have had a cyclone 36v 900watt setup and it was great when it worked, but I had issues with chain line, chain maintenance, and overheating and gear shredding. The motor sits in my garage now as a reminder for me what not to do. The cyclone setup is definitely for the tinker type, but unfortunately with 2 kids and a business I have a lot less time to tinker than I thought I did.
[quote4. With the upcoming winter, will it be easier on the motor, in terms of cooling, harder due to additional weight of the winter gear, or both?][/quote]
The cold weather will definitely help an overworked motor, but it is best to have a motor that can more than handle the amount of power you are going to put into it.
My advice is to go the DD route 9c either ebikes.ca or ebikekit.com and cover the motor with panniers kind of like DogMans pic., but cover the motor. The geared motors on 36v are great, but put a lot of voltage into it, weight, and climb a steep hill and it's toast. 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)
--Thanks, Will.

Dogman, thanks a bunch for the GCinDC thread. I watched the video twice (I had to), and all I can say is this thing is insanely fast and is *exactly* what I'm looking to do. The speed is outstanding; I assume the torque is good too. I could never believe that any hub would do speeds like that. Riding in the rain is another thing - I think hubs are better suited for that, as they are somewhat (?) waterproof. I wouldn't go down the stairs on it, as he did, but I guess it proves the concept that the bike still retains good suspension and its mountain bike abilities. I didn't read through the whole build thread yet, but it appears as if this was exactly what I'm looking for - the ultimate (IMHO) city transport, for me anyway. I loved to see the wheel spinning, just like in a car - shows the capabilities. I'll read through his build, scan to see what his costs were and whether it's feasible to do in my case.

Rollodo said:

. The speed is outstanding; I assume the torque is good too. I could never believe that any hub would do speeds like that.

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THen you probably haven't found Methods' and DoctorBass' builds yet. :lol:

Or the Death Race stuff.

amberwolf said:

THen you probably haven't found Methods' and DoctorBass' builds yet. :lol: Or the Death Race stuff.

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If you mean DoctorBass's 2003 Giant - holy mother! I just watched the "-25C in Quebec at night" video - insane! Though a two-battery setup of 100V isn't exactly what I intend to do, I think this has permanently derailed me onto the hub path. I think this has a lot to do with the lack of necessary maintenance performed on both the motor and the components - as long as the motor's potential overweighs the application, I should be good. As wineboyrider put it:

wineboyrider said:

...it is best to have a motor that can more than handle the amount of power you are going to put into it.

Click to expand...

Thanks again for the links, guys. I've got some schoolwork to do, so I won't be able to read these lengthy builds all at once, but it'll definitely keep me busy for a few days.
@stingray17: thanks, man, that was some helpful info on batteries and the C-rating. So, if a 1C 8Ah battery can only draw 8 Amps per hour, would the 2C 8Ah battery draw 8A * 2C = 16 Amps of maximum safe continuous current? I based this on this site: http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20959. If yes, and the more Amps one can draw per hour safely, the better, then the greater the C rating - the better? Again, sorry if I'm not grasping this concept, I'm really not very electronically-inclined at all.
Disk brakes - not sure yet, but most likely in the future. I've got Schwinn Midtown - it's got double suspension, v-brakes, aluminum frame, a bit heavy as it is. It'll probably need quite a bit of work, or I might have to get a different frame, which isn't something I want to do - I'm kinda attached to the bike.

Sorry about not being clear, guys - I basically want to be able to beat the traffic and ride fast once in a while or whenever there is nobody on the road.

One thing you might consider, start out with a 48v 20 amp controller, and nearly any choice of dd hubmotor, or larger gearmotor such as the mac. You won't have the huge zip of a 40amp 72v controller, but you'd still have top speeds in the 27 mph range. That's actually pretty fast on a bike in the city.

But less acceleration will keep the wh/mi from being crazy high, and prevent melting motors. A bit less torque means you won't be so likely to destroy the frame on the first ride too.

Later on you'll want to graduate to a true 40 mph bike, so get started learning about lipo batteries now. Run your 48v bike on 12s lipo. Very simple and easy for the beginners. Then easily expandable to 18s for hauling ass later, after you buy a high volt high amp controller. 21s 10 ah will carry in a backpack easy, or a frame bag if it fits. .

You could go with a 48v 15 ah pingbattery, but then it would take you about 10,000 miles to wear it out, justifying a higher voltage. And you'd be stuck with 20 amps.

Rollodo said:

@stingray17: thanks, man, that was some helpful info on batteries and the C-rating. So, if a 1C 8Ah battery can only draw 8 Amps per hour, would the 2C 8Ah battery draw 8A * 2C = 16 Amps of maximum safe continuous current? I based this on this site: http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20959. If yes, and the more Amps one can draw per hour safely, the better, then the greater the C rating - the better? Again, sorry if I'm not grasping this concept, I'm really not very electronically-inclined at all.

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Yeah, sounds like you've got the basic concept. Higher C rate batteries can put out more peak Amps compared to their capacity (capacity = Amp-hours); in other words you can drain them faster without hurting them and without the voltage dropping much.

Of course higher C rate isn't the only thing that makes a battery pack "better" -- other considerations are:
* weight (how many watt-hours per pound)
* cycle life (hundreds of charges, or thousands?)
* safety
* ease of charging (battery management system [BMS] needed / included)
* price

Like dogman said, if you get a 15 or 20 Ah Ping battery you'll be stuck at 20 or 30 amps max because of the low (1.0 - 1.5) C rate and the battery most likely lasting a long-ass time if used at that rate. That's totally fine for commuting (at least it is for me), but it's not a high-performance thing.

If you go 12S LiPo, just a suggestion, you might even get started with as little as two of those 6S Zippy 8Ah packs rated 30C - with only 12S1P, it's more Amps than you'll need on a bike. I think that should give a range of 8-12 miles, depending (or more but careful not to drain them all the way). Then add one more 6S in series if you want more speed, and/or double up in parallel if you need more range. The thing is, if you go with LiPo it might be a little more of an investment in wiring, charging equipment, cell monitors, fire-resistant charging bags, etc...

Another popular option these days is higher-performance LiFePO4 such as the A123 cells. These are safer than LiPo, also a bit heavier. You can get off-the-shelf BMS systems or complete assembled ebike packs w/ BMS from guys like cell_man. (Or you can scavenge and test/revive cells from old DeWalt battery packs!) I'm going with LiPo for my current build but A123's or similar are looking good too...

Yes, the a123 packs cellman has would be a really good choice, but again, though not stuck with low watts you'd be stuck with that voltage, unless you started series connecting whole packs.

Though a noob, I smell a guy here who will want lipo. So he may as well just get started with 4 6s lipo packs, and a wiring harness from Icecube57. Charging will seem really expensive, but won't need to be upscaled as the pack is upscaled. A good 300w charger and a meanwell will get him off to a good start.

dogman said:

One thing you might consider, start out with a 48v 20 amp controller, and nearly any choice of dd hubmotor, or larger gearmotor such as the mac. You won't have the huge zip of a 40amp 72v controller, but you'd still have top speeds in the 27 mph range. That's actually pretty fast on a bike in the city.

...But less acceleration will keep the wh/mi from being crazy high, and prevent melting motors. A bit less torque means you won't be so likely to destroy the frame on the first ride too.

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Yes, this is very important, thank you. Spending hundreds of dollars on a decent frame after an immature fubar stunt isn't something I can afford at this time.
Sorry, I got confused a bit - could you briefly explain the difference between the direct-drive, hubs and gear motors? I thought they're the same thing. Is hub the same as direct-drive? Is cyclone an example of gear-motor?

dogman said:

...You could go with a 48v 15 ah pingbattery, but then it would take you about 10,000 miles to wear it out, justifying a higher voltage. And you'd be stuck with 20 amps.

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Everyone keeps talking about this one - I might consider it. What's really important is portability, as I intend to be recharging the battery at college. What about depletion - should the LiFePO4 batteries be allowed to reach their minimum level? What does "High intrinsic safety" mean?

Man, did it take me some time to find out that "S" stands for, like, cells-in-Series. I got it from here: http://www.rchelicopterfun.com/rc-lipo-batteries.html. So, 12S is 12 cells x 3.7 volts/cell = 44.4V? From a recent electricity class I remember that Series is to Volts as Parallel is to Amps. That page also gave me some insight on the brushless motor ratings - the Kv value. I, too, was thinking of this Kv as KV - Kilo-Volts.

stingray17 said:

...The thing is, if you go with LiPo it might be a little more of an investment in wiring, charging equipment, cell monitors, fire-resistant charging bags, etc...

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Would it be possible for you to make a list of what other components I'd have to get in order to prolong the life of the battery and/or motor?

dogman said:

...Charging will seem really expensive, but won't need to be upscaled as the pack is upscaled. A good 300w charger and a meanwell will get him off to a good start.

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Do you mean that a good charger is really expensive? Could you provide approximate dollar figures? Also, could you elaborate a little on your signature - "THE LIPO RULES. NEVER ABOVE 4.3V NEVER BELOW 2.7V DON'T PUNCTURE"? I understand that one should avoid puncturing the LiPo because it might catch on fire, but why never go above 4.3V or below 2.7V? I could probably search the web, but I figured I'd ask you, since you probably have had some personal experience (?).

And a sincere thanks goes to everyone in this thread.

Rollodo said:

dogman said:

One thing you might consider, start out with a 48v 20 amp controller, and nearly any choice of dd hubmotor, or larger gearmotor such as the mac. You won't have the huge zip of a 40amp 72v controller, but you'd still have top speeds in the 27 mph range. That's actually pretty fast on a bike in the city.

...But less acceleration will keep the wh/mi from being crazy high, and prevent melting motors. A bit less torque means you won't be so likely to destroy the frame on the first ride too.

Click to expand...

Yes, this is very important, thank you. Spending hundreds of dollars on a decent frame after an immature fubar stunt isn't something I can afford at this time.
Sorry, I got confused a bit - could you briefly explain the difference between the direct-drive, hubs and gear motors? I thought they're the same thing. Is hub the same as direct-drive? Is cyclone an example of gear-motor?..

Click to expand...

Hub motors are in the wheel of bike. Direct drive is a type of hub motor. Geared motors are another type of hub motor. The main difference is that direct drive have no gears inside (few moving parts at all) and can't free wheel. Geared motors have gears inside and can free wheel. There are advantages and disadvantages to each

The Cyclone is a non-hub motor because it is attached outside the wheel and drives the chain rather than the wheel. There are a variety of non-hub motors out there.

Rollodo said:

dogman said:

...You could go with a 48v 15 ah pingbattery, but then it would take you about 10,000 miles to wear it out, justifying a higher voltage. And you'd be stuck with 20 amps.

Click to expand...

Everyone keeps talking about this one - I might consider it. What's really important is portability, as I intend to be recharging the battery at college. What about depletion - should the LiFePO4 batteries be allowed to reach their minimum level? What does "High intrinsic safety" mean?...

Click to expand...

LiFePO4 and other types of Lithium Ion batteries (as well as old style SLA batteries) are more or less plug in to recharge and forget about them while they recharge. LiPO batteries are seen by many as a safety hazard if you don't keep them within certain parameters of charging, discharging and balancing as well as charging within a safe (fireproof) environment. This isn't all that onerous for some and is too onerous for others. But, either way, most people here on ES don't consider them plug and ignore.

There are other Lithium Ion batteries with different chemistries than just the Ping brand LiFePO4. For instance, I own a 48V12ah LiMNC battery purchased from Chicago Electric Bikes (the owner post here on ES regularly). Its lighter than a comparable Ping, but does cost more.

Don't just ask questions. Keep reading here on ES. Lots of this is explained in different places.

Direct drive (DD) hub motors have no gears inside. Usual advantages include more reliable because there are no gears to break. Regen braking that will recharge your battery while braking and more importantly imo reduce wear on and assist brakes. The only disadvantage is that it does have a little resistance when pedaling without the motor in use. For me the advantages far outweigh the disadavantage.

Gear drive hub motors have reduction gears inside that will allow freewheeling. The advantage is there's little to no resistance when pedaling without using the motor. They can also provide more torque as opposed to speed than the DD hub. The disadvantages are you can't get regen braking and the gears tend to break way too soon and often for me to consider one. I think they would have to be a little noisier too because of the higher rpm and gears.

See battery technology section for more info on batteries. The main differences with lipo, you don't use a BMS. It's totally configurable for any voltage/ah rating you want in a matter of seconds. And you can start with as small a pack as you want without having to worry about how many amps your motor/controller draw.

wesnewell said:

Direct drive (DD) hub motors have no gears inside. Usual advantages include more reliable because there are no gears to break. Regen braking that will recharge your battery while braking and more importantly imo reduce wear on and assist brakes. The only disadvantage is that it does have a little resistance when pedaling without the motor in use. For me the advantages far outweigh the disadavantage...

Click to expand...

Of course, I bought a geared hub motor because it was great for my intended speed (25-30mph from 48v12ah), because it was smaller and lighter than direct drive, freewheeled to let me pedal for a few blocks easily (necessary when I cross a busy college campus as well as letting me get a little exercise occasionally), and did better on my big hill during the commute. So every individual will have to weigh their own needs. A different bike and different commute and I would've bought the direct drive.

nuevomexicano said:

wesnewell said:

Direct drive (DD) hub motors have no gears inside. Usual advantages include more reliable because there are no gears to break. Regen braking that will recharge your battery while braking and more importantly imo reduce wear on and assist brakes. The only disadvantage is that it does have a little resistance when pedaling without the motor in use. For me the advantages far outweigh the disadavantage...

Click to expand...

Of course, I bought a geared hub motor because it was great for my intended speed (25-30mph from 48v12ah), because it was smaller and lighter than direct drive, freewheeled to let me pedal for a few blocks easily (necessary when I cross a busy college campus as well as letting me get a little exercise occasionally), and did better on my big hill during the commute. So every individual will have to weigh their own needs. A different bike and different commute and I would've bought the direct drive.

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Great suggestions. I have both geared and dd motors, but I find for the really long 26 mile rides I make a DD hub is much more durable.

Gear motors do have an advantage for lots of starts and stops too. The internal gears mean the motor can still spin pretty fast even when going slow, like getting going in city riding. DD has a harder, slower start up unless you feed it lots of power, but they are the best for really long uninterrupted rides. On the long ride, like 20-30 miles or more, the dd motor tends to shed heat better.

Most dd motors nowdays are pretty big diameter hubs. So for city riding, and hiding the motor in the back behind some gears, I recomend the gearmotors. The Mac or BMC for you I'd say.

I'm reading this thread right now. Would it be possible to have two hubs - front and rear?

Front would be on a low-end, small, geared and primarily meant for starting and/or low speeds. Maybe I'll start out by purchasing one of these EBK front setups, as they seem to reasonably priced (watch until I come across another distributor), and it would be a good way to find out how it all fits together.

The rear would be the workhorse - something like a 1000W direct-drive and only engaged when certain speeds (>15mph?) are reached. Both powered by the same battery and controller? Is this possible? I'm just imagining it so far - and it seems doable, maybe a few (quiet a few?) more wires here and there. I don't know if bike frames are hollow. If they are, perhaps drill a hole, stuff the wires in and apply silicon to protect from moisture?

In terms of cost, I'm really not sure, as I would like to be a good investment. It's definitely a factor, though - I wouldn't go with Bionx.

By the way, if anybody knows of any decent tablet deals or even giveaways, let me know - I'd love to read all these threads on a 7" screen

Yeah, that would work. Just requires enough battery amp capacity, if you are going to be running both at once at any time. The unpowered dd motor would cause drag, so more likely would be using a dd motor to get started, and add power for hills by engaging the second motor. Some are using dual motors that both run all the time, for hills.

But lets back up just a bit. Niether a gearmotor or a dd motor is going to take off all that slow, if you run it on 1000w, that is, 48v 20 amps. You'll out run cars till they hit about 15 mph. It's only the low watt motors, like 350w that are slow. If being slow is an issue, more volts is the cure. By 72v you are taking off nice and fast. Not motorcycle fast perhaps, but dang fast for bikes.

Most of us that find we want or need more power than 48v 20 amps are satisfied, at least for a while, by 72v 40 amps. That's usually into the 40 mph club.

What is the difference between these motors (EbikeKit and on eBay):

http://www.e-bikekit.com/shop/index.php?p=product&id=138&parent=0
http://www.ebay.com/itm/48V-1000W-Electric-Bike-Engine-Rear-Motor-Bicycle-Kit-/160655006876

Both are hubs, both are geared, but EBK is smaller. I think EBK is 350W, eBay's is 1000W.

It's probably my lack of knowledge, but I can't understand the difference in price - $442+$24 shipping for EbikeKit and $275+$0 shipping on eBay? That's ~$190. For this much, I could buy a decent battery, no?

--Thanks again, Will.

The ebay motors you linked look damn straight like GoldenMotors, which is a Direct drive kit. I have heard mixed results with goldenmotors. :lol:
You can get a very similar geared motor kit from cellman for $130..? He is a vendor in the for sale section pm him if interested.

If you res. on ebike website they will give you a 15% discount within a week. Never brought from them.