Lyen vs Infineon

cbr shadow · Jun 25, 2012

I'm buying a battery through Cellman, who also offers controllers. Shipping is expensive, which adds to his (very low) initial cost of the controller. I also got a quote from Lyen, which is more expensive but shipping is much less and he will give detailed instructions on the wiring since he's familiar with the HS3540 that I'm using. Which to go with?
1) Infineon 65A - IRFB4110 - ($150)
2) Lyen 18 FET 4110 Mark II Overclocker Ready LYEN Edition Controller ($199)

With the added shipping for the Infineon they're about the same price. I'm sure the wiring isn't too complicated where I couldn't figure it out, but it's nice that Lyen will give detailed instructions to connect with an HS3540 motor and my exact setup.

Thoughts? One thing I didn't ask was what the Lyen controller was rated at as far as Amps.. I plan on running it at 45A, but is that lots of room for bringing it up in the future?

neptronix · Jun 25, 2012

Lyen controllers are infineon controllers..

Similar end product, if not identical. Cell_man adds some tweaks so that they work better on high eRPM motors like the MAC, but they work great for all other applications as well.

downside: you pay China shipping.

cbr shadow · Jun 26, 2012

Thanks Nep!

Sacman · Jun 26, 2012

True... Lyen controllers are Infineon controllers as well... modified to be over volted (or overclocked).

cbr shadow said:
One thing I didn't ask was what the Lyen controller was rated at as far as Amps.. I plan on running it at 45A, but is that lots of room for bringing it up in the future?

Lyen rates the capacity of his controllers in watts (not amps), and he rates the 18 x 4110 FET controller to handle around 5250 watts. So let say you are going to run 24S lipo at 88.8v nominal voltage. You divide 5250 watts /88.8v=59A for the 18 FET.

Sacman · Jun 26, 2012

One other thing you should also consider is that Lyen works and fixes the controllers himself... and he is here in the States. If you ever damage your controller and need his services to fix it he can do it (he has been know to be very helpful to many members for doing this). And you don't have the hassle of cost and long wait time for shipping to China to deal with.

Jeremy Harris · Jun 26, 2012

Sacman said:
True... Lyen controllers are Infineon controllers as well... modified to be over volted (or overclocked).

cbr shadow said:

One thing I didn't ask was what the Lyen controller was rated at as far as Amps.. I plan on running it at 45A, but is that lots of room for bringing it up in the future?

Click to expand...

Lyen rates the capacity of his controllers in watts (not amps), and he rates the 18 x 4110 FET controller to handle around 5250 watts. So let say you are going to run 24S lipo at 88.8v nominal voltage. You divide 5250 watts /88.8v=59A for the 18 FET.

I do hope this isn't right, as controllers are strictly voltage and current limited devices. They couldn't really care less what the power is, unless it results in either the voltage or current exceeding a component limitation.

FETs only care about two things, that the voltage (including spikes and ripple) never exceeds their absolute maximum rated voltage, and that the current never exceeds the absolute maximum with regard to the junction dissipation and the FET on resistance.

Using the unwise principle of rating a controller in power, could result in some serious problems. For example, say you have a 6 FET controller fitted with IRFB4110 FETs. Such a controller could work OK at around 90 V and maybe 40 A or more, so could be (unwisely) rated as a 90 x 40 = 3.6 kW controller. Now, using the logic that it's a 3.6 kW controller, can we run it at 36 V and get 3.6 kW? The answer is no, not a hope in hell, as doing that would mean running the FETs at 100 A, and there's no way that they will get close to that sort of current. The reality is that at 36 V this controller would be a 36 x 40 = 1.44 kW controller, not a 3.6 kW controller at all.

The golden rule is to remember never to exceed EITHER the current rating OR the voltage rating of the controller. You cannot safely increase the current rating if you have decreased the voltage, and vice versa. Ignore any notional power rating as, at best, it'll be highly misleading.

I'm not knocking Ed Lyen here, as he builds reliable Xiechang controllers and puts a lot of work into making them as robust as he can.

Philistine · Jun 26, 2012

I do hope this isn't right, as controllers are strictly voltage and current limited devices. They couldn't really care less what the power is, unless it results in either the voltage or current exceeding a component limitation.

FETs only care about two things, that the voltage (including spikes and ripple) never exceeds their absolute maximum rated voltage, and that the current never exceeds the absolute maximum with regard to the junction dissipation and the FET on resistance.

Using the unwise principle of rating a controller in power, could result in some serious problems. For example, say you have a 6 FET controller fitted with IRFB4110 FETs. Such a controller could work OK at around 90 V and maybe 40 A or more, so could be (unwisely) rated as a 90 x 40 = 3.6 kW controller. Now, using the logic that it's a 3.6 kW controller, can we run it at 36 V and get 3.6 kW? The answer is no, not a hope in hell, as doing that would mean running the FETs at 100 A, and there's no way that they will get close to that sort of current. The reality is that at 36 V this controller would be a 36 x 40 = 1.44 kW controller, not a 3.6 kW controller at all.

The golden rule is to remember never to exceed EITHER the current rating OR the voltage rating of the controller. You cannot safely increase the current rating if you have decreased the voltage, and vice versa. Ignore any notional power rating as, at best, it'll be highly misleading.

I'm not knocking Ed Lyen here, as he builds reliable Xiechang controllers and puts a lot of work into making them as robust as he can.

I can confirm Edward (Lyen) does specify its voltage limit as well as its current limit (hence why he specifies the different voltage potential limits for his 18 Fet controllers, depending on the Fets used). I think Sacman was just making the point that the limit is not an "amp limit" but rather a current limit, and then also a voltage limit seperately.

Cell_man adds some tweaks so that they work better on high eRPM motors like the MAC, but they work great for all other applications as well.

@Neptronix, What are the "tweaks"? I am curious, are they hardware related or programing related? I am only curious because I hear people talk about problems they have with Lyen controllers and BMC/Mac motors, but I have run both a BMC controller on my BMC motor (the controller specifically designed for the motor), and after it blew up, I replaced it with a Lyen 12 Fet and I literally can't notice any difference at all in performance. I don't understand the problem that people seem to refer to, and seeing as Cellman's controllers are also infineons, I always wondered what these tweaks were.

I have never bought from Cell_man, but my mate has and he was really impressed with the whole transaction, and the quality of goods. In my view Cell_man and Lyen are the kind of people that are an essential part of a forum like this, high quality product, no BS, and great after sales service. Personally I think it is just a case of practical issues such as shipping costs etc,, and the particular product you are after.

cbr shadow · Jun 26, 2012

Nep, are these literally the exact same controller? If Lyen modified it, what exactly what changed?
Sacman, I plan on using 66v (20s 6p A123 from cellman) so based on what you tell me: 5250 watts / 66v = 79.54 Amps.. So I can safely run 66v 79A witht his setup? I dont plan on going near that, but for future proofing I'd like to know.
Jeremy, What is the maximum voltage and maximum amps for this controller then?

Thanks guys.

Philistine · Jun 26, 2012

If you are buying the battery from Cell_man, surely the controller is going to add very little to shipping costs?

If the Cell_man controller is an 18 Fet 4110 Fet Infineon controller, with programming cable, and with CA cable (if that is what you want), I would just get the Cell_man controller and get it all in one place. If you are getting the battery from Cellman, having an 18 Fet controller added will add very little to shipping I would have thought.

Neptronix was not suggesting that Lyen modified his controller, he was saying that Cell_man had somehow modified his for higher RPM motors. I was asking the same question (as to the "tweaks"), because I too wonder what the tweaks are, as to whether they are hardware or firmware related. Personally I can't understand what the tweaks could be, but I am a caveman at these things.

Ypedal · Jun 26, 2012

my very loose and very likely WRONG assumption is that there are various chips being used on these controllers, some of these handle higher RPM motors ( like the BMC hub for example ) .. the basic controller is the same , but the chip ( IC ) can vary.. so does the USB programming software..??? anyone confirm this ?

cbr shadow · Jun 26, 2012

Philistine said:
If you are buying the battery from Cell_man, surely the controller is going to add very little to shipping costs?

If the Cell_man controller is an 18 Fet 4110 Fet Infineon controller, with programming cable, and with CA cable (if that is what you want), I would just get the Cell_man controller and get it all in one place. If you are getting the battery from Cellman, having an 18 Fet controller added will add very little to shipping I would have thought.

Neptronix was not suggesting that Lyen modified his controller, he was saying that Cell_man had somehow modified his for higher RPM motors. I was asking the same question (as to the "tweaks"), because I too wonder what the tweaks are, as to whether they are hardware or firmware related. Personally I can't understand what the tweaks could be, but I am a caveman at these things.

Unfortunately if I buy just the battery it's just 1 parcel, but add a controller+charger it's 2 parcels

Sacman · Jun 26, 2012

Jeremy Harris said:
Sacman said:

True... Lyen controllers are Infineon controllers as well... modified to be over volted (or overclocked).

cbr shadow said:

One thing I didn't ask was what the Lyen controller was rated at as far as Amps.. I plan on running it at 45A, but is that lots of room for bringing it up in the future?

Click to expand...

Lyen rates the capacity of his controllers in watts (not amps), and he rates the 18 x 4110 FET controller to handle around 5250 watts. So let say you are going to run 24S lipo at 88.8v nominal voltage. You divide 5250 watts /88.8v=59A for the 18 FET.

Click to expand...

I do hope this isn't right, as controllers are strictly voltage and current limited devices. They couldn't really care less what the power is, unless it results in either the voltage or current exceeding a component limitation.

FETs only care about two things, that the voltage (including spikes and ripple) never exceeds their absolute maximum rated voltage, and that the current never exceeds the absolute maximum with regard to the junction dissipation and the FET on resistance.

Using the unwise principle of rating a controller in power, could result in some serious problems. For example, say you have a 6 FET controller fitted with IRFB4110 FETs. Such a controller could work OK at around 90 V and maybe 40 A or more, so could be (unwisely) rated as a 90 x 40 = 3.6 kW controller. Now, using the logic that it's a 3.6 kW controller, can we run it at 36 V and get 3.6 kW? The answer is no, not a hope in hell, as doing that would mean running the FETs at 100 A, and there's no way that they will get close to that sort of current. The reality is that at 36 V this controller would be a 36 x 40 = 1.44 kW controller, not a 3.6 kW controller at all.

The golden rule is to remember never to exceed EITHER the current rating OR the voltage rating of the controller. You cannot safely increase the current rating if you have decreased the voltage, and vice versa. Ignore any notional power rating as, at best, it'll be highly misleading.

I'm not knocking Ed Lyen here, as he builds reliable Xiechang controllers and puts a lot of work into making them as robust as he can.

Jeremy, thanks for enlightening us. I've read many of your electronic explanations over the years and as usual they make sense. Understood that you can't ignore the operational voltage & current limits of the components in the controller.

CBR Shadow, To be clear, the 5250 watts example I gave above is the very answer Lyen gave to me in email when I was purchasing the same 18-FET controller as the you... when I asked him how many amps I could safely run if I'm running only 12S Lipo now but plan to run 24S later.

neptronix · Jun 26, 2012

About cell_man's modifications to his controllers, i don't really have an answer to give you, i guess it's kind of a trade secret.

What i know is that my current EB3 cell_man infineon controllers are buttery smooth with the MAC motor compared to everything else i have tried, including the previous generation of cell_man controller ( EB2 ).

A lyen EB3 controller may perform just as well, but i have not tested them back to back.
So there is your grain of salt to take..

p.s. if you do end up getting a cell_man controller, get one of his 3 speed throttles along with it. I believe that the throttle wiring is different on cell_man and lyen's controllers.

Lyen vs Infineon

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