Ebike/Moped/scooter LEGAL Hybrid

EbikeMaui

1 kW
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Mar 10, 2007
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Made with a bicycle frame or a heavy duty aluminum lightweight 50CC moped/motorcycle frame this would be a product for conforming to legal options having wider motorcycle rims, tires, along with lights and other moped requirements.Made for safer faster speeds.
To use this type of Hybrid design to get new Ebike laws to suggest 1499 watts max for a ebike and 4000 watts max for a moped may be worthwhile to attempt to legalize for both ebike and moped uses with max speed of 35 mph.?..
The videos show the ranges of performance up to 1400 watts out.
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=ecyclemaui
http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=5016001
http://cyclesantamonica.blogspot.com/2006/12/motorino-close-up.html
http://www.e-ride.ca/Electric_Scooters/Motorino_BTr.html
 

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http://cyclesantamonica.blogspot.com/2006/12/motorino-close-up.html
That looks like me. Wait! That is ME!! I'm a STAR!
I'm ready for my closeup.

I wish I knew what happened to the sound on those. They had sound when originally upload and first few plays.

Re the Btr bike Motorino isn't the manufacturer they are just the Canadian importer that slaps their sticker on it. I've been trying to find the real Chinese manufacturer.

Which of the 6 vids ont he first link is showing the 1400 w output. I know for a fact that the vids on the third link are for a bike with a 350W motor operating at 17Amps 48V and the spedometer is KM/h not miles.
 
Lessss said:
http://cyclesantamonica.blogspot.com/2006/12/motorino-close-up.html
That looks like me. Wait! That is ME!! I'm a STAR!
I'm ready for my closeup.

I wish I knew what happened to the sound on those. They had sound when originally upload and first few plays.

Re the Btr bike Motorino isn't the manufacturer they are just the Canadian importer that slaps their sticker on it. I've been trying to find the real Chinese manufacturer.

Which of the 6 vids ont he first link is showing the 1400 w output. I know for a fact that the vids on the third link are for a bike with a 350W motor operating at 17Amps 48V and the spedometer is KM/h not miles.
Whth a Chain drive such as what i have pictured here and on the lithium ebike in the videos on the Gvideo link is a 36 volt 700 watt and a 72 volt 1400 watt system.(Watts out not power to the road,). Just adding batteries determines the legality and by using a frame that would be legal for both would be Ideal.Options would include a hubmotor or a 5 kw motor that is power programable.if that floats boats.
http://www.marselectricllc.com/
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=ecyclemaui
 

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What laws are you referring to when you say just adding the batteries determines the legality?
From my understanding of Canadian and US law you need.
1) a motor 500W (Us750) or under
2) Pedals
3) A speed cap on the motors assistance ending at 32Km/h
4) It's electric.

There is nothing about batteries or the frame that I am aware of.
 
Something else that people frequently overlook is that different vehicle classes also fall into certain weight restrictions.

In Canada at least, e-bikes max weight is 35kg & for mopeds 50kg is the limit. If your e-bike is over, then it has to be registered as a moped & if your moped is over then it's considered a motorcycle with all the attendant safety equipment required.
 
35kgs, makes sense.
My 42kg e-bike definitely felt more like a moped.

Edit: If the batteries are on my back, does that count?
 
Mathurin said:
Edit: If the batteries are on my back, does that count?

Seriously, that's a question I've pondered from the begining. Not just on the back, but if you add a secondary pack & that puts you over, are you now (strictly speaking) afoul of the law. Why would a lighter Lipo which contains more power than lead-acid be the one that's not illegal simply because it's lighter.

I would claim the battery packs (primary included) as cargo. I think a judge would look at if the batteries were hard wired, on your back or otherwise. So a quick disconnect would be in order if it ever became an issue.
 
Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh
Can you point me to a link on that?

I have nothing regarding weight at all.

http://www.gnb.ca/0062/acts/acts/m-17.htm has no instance of Kg on the page at all.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/acts-regulations/GENERAL/M/mvsa/regulations/mvsrg/001/mvsr1-21.html
Shows a few instances of Kg but they are referring to carrying cargo capacity and the definition ofa child. Only thing close is
"motor tricycle" means a motorcycle, other than an antique reproduction vehicle, that
(d) has a GVWR of 1 000 kg or less; and

did a search on kilograms and am seeing only fines per kilgram on Large axel vehicles
 
Lessss said:
What laws are you referring to when you say just adding the batteries determines the legality?
From my understanding of Canadian and US law you need.
1) a motor 500W (Us750) or under
2) Pedals
3) A speed cap on the motors assistance ending at 32Km/h
4) It's electric.

There is nothing about batteries or the frame that I am aware of.
in most cases if the motor has a range of voltages adding packs will increase power if the motor is built for this.Larger frames will allow more batteries.
 
in most cases if the motor has a range of voltages adding packs will increase power if the motor is built for this. Larger frames will allow more batteries.

Not quite. The controller has to allow it as well. Many controllers won't take the extra voltage and simply die. Many may take it but not at higher amperages like hill climbing and pop the capacitor. Even if the Controller and cap will take it the motor may not for very long before overheating and burning. All that is still dependant on the law.

Which coutry are you referring to and what is the wording of the law you are referring to?
 
Lessss said:
Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh
Can you point me to a link on that?

I have nothing regarding weight at all.

Took a bit of scouting with lot of my linx being broken & out of date. Guess it indicates that government websites have been made over due to ebike regulation being still somewhat in a state of flux to incorporate recent changes. I was begining to question my recall on the subject since you threw down the gauntlet to back it up. Turns out I was off by 5 kg. I think I got the 50km crossed with the kg.




http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dandv/vehicle/emerging/e-bike-faq.htm

12. What is the difference between an e-bike and a moped?

Power-assisted bicycle (e-bike)

> Has steering handlebars and is equipped with pedals
> Is designed to be propelled primarily by muscular power and to travel on not more than three wheels
> Has a motor that has a power output rating of 500W or less (note: the motor is electric, and is incapable of propelling the cycle at speed of 32km/h or greater on level ground, without pedaling.)
> Must bear label indicating vehicle as a "Power-Assisted Bicycle".



Motor-Assisted Bicycle (Moped)

> Has pedals that can be operated at all times
> Does not attain a speed greater than 50 km/hr
> Has a piston displacement of not more that 50 cubic centimeters
> Has no hand or foot operated clutch or gearbox driven by the motor and transferring power to the driven wheel
> Weighs not more than 55 kilograms
> Newer models must bear label indicating vehicle as a "LSM/MVL (limited-speed motorcycle)



13. Why do you need a licence to operate a moped and not an e-bike when they both have pedals?

> Mopeds are heavier and faster than e-bikes. The maximum speed of a moped is 50 km/hr and an e-bike is 32 km/hr. Mopeds can weigh as much as 55 kg or 121 lbs, while most e-bikes weigh half that at about 28 kg or 61 pounds. Mopeds do have pedals, but most are driven solely by motor, whereas most e-bikes are designed to be pedalled with a power-assist.
> In terms of their power and size, mopeds drive more like motorcycles and e-bikes more like bicycles. Indeed, Transport Canada considers mopeds to be limited-speed motorcycles and requires mopeds to meet motorcycle equipment and safety standards. Driving a motorcycle in Ontario requires the operator to have a motorcycle licence.




:arrow: I found this tidbit intriguing even tho it's not something I'd ever have to worry about.

17. If a police officer stopped someone who is drunk while driving an e-bike, how would they be charged? Would this be a Criminal Code offence? HTA offence?

Drinking and driving a motor vehicle is a Criminal Code offence and charges are laid under the Criminal Code of Canada. Under the Criminal Code, the definition of a "motor vehicle" would include an e-bike and anyone operating an e-bike intoxicated could be charged for impaired driving. If convicted, the offender would be subject to the Criminal Code penalties, including a fine or jail time, and a driving prohibition. However, under this pilot regulation, an e-bike would not be a motor vehicle under the Highway Traffic Act, so penalties for impaired driving under the Act would not apply.



So an ebike is not a motor vehicle under provinicial statutes but is under the federal CC. That's the kind of logic that can only make sense to a bureaucrab in the rarefied atmosphere when your head is up your a$$. A little consistency would be asking too much. :roll:



Since you're there already, check out the previous page, in particular the segway & the select group that are the only priveleged ones to legally operate it on both roads & sidewalks in a 5 year pilot project.

http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dandv/vehicle/emerging/index.html#motor
 
So the weight applies only to mopeds not ebikes

Mopeds are considered "limited-speed motorcycles"

and since

http://www.tc.gc.ca/acts-regulations/GENERAL/M/mvsa/regulations/mvsrg/001/mvsr1-21.html
"motorcycle"
« motocyclette »
"motorcycle" means a vehicle of the subclasses enclosed motorcycle, open motorcycle, limited-speed motorcycle and motor tricycle, that
(a) is designed to travel on not more than three wheels in contact with the ground,
(b) has a minimum wheel rim diameter of 250 mm, and
(c) has a minimum wheelbase of 1 016 mm,
but does not include a power-assisted bicycle, a restricted-use motorcycle, a low-speed vehicle, a passenger car, a truck, a multi-purpose passenger vehicle, a competition vehicle, a vehicle imported temporarily for special purposes or a three-wheeled vehicle;



This means the weight restriction does not apply to bicycles.
 
Now if only we could find out who the real manufacturer of the bike in the pic at the top of this thread is. Anyone in Vancouvder care to stop at the shop and look at the name on the keychain? I find the original manufacturer name is often on the keys.
 
In line 13, ebike weight 28kg.
For sure if your ebike is over 55kg (121 lbs.) it will be viewed as a motorcycle & then you'll be hit with a raft of equipment violations.
It's vaguely written probably because in Ontario ebikes are only legal for the duration of a 3 year pilot project.
It's just their way of going kicking & screaming into the 21st century.

Need more convincing?



http://www.infratrans.gov.ab.ca/INFTRA_Content/docType45/Production/mcpage14.htm#Power bicycle

http://www.infratrans.gov.ab.ca/INFTRA_Content/docType45/Production/mcpage12.htm




A power bicycle is defined as follows in the:
Use of Highway and Rules of the Road Regulation.

1(o): "power bicycle" means a vehicle that
(i) may be propelled
(A) by human muscular power,
(B) by mechanical power, or
(C) partly by human muscular power and partly by mechanical power,
(ii) is fitted with pedals that are continually operable to propel it,
(iii) has a motor that produces not more than 750 watts and is driven by electricity or has an engine with a displacement of not more than 50 cubic centimetres,
(iv) does not have a hand-operated or foot-operated clutch or gearbox driven by the motor that transfers power to the driven wheel,
(v) does not have sufficient power to enable it to attain a speed greater than 35 kilometres per hour on level ground within a distance of two kilometres from a standing start, and
(vi) weighs not more than 35 kilograms.

Note: Some vehicles may appear to be power bicycles. However, if they exceed the weight of 35 kg or the speed of 35 km/h, then they do not fall into the power bike classification and are, instead, considered mopeds.





A moped is defined as follows in the: Use of Highway and Rules of the Road Regulation.

1(i) "moped" means a vehicle, regardless of the number of wheels it has, that
(i) may be propelled:
(A) by human muscular power,
(B) by mechanical power, or
(C) partly by human muscular power and partly by mechanical power,
(ii) has a motor that is driven by electricity or has an engine with a displacement of not more than 50 cubic centimetres,
(iii) does not have a hand-operated or foot-operated clutch or gearbox driven by the motor that transfers power to the driven wheel,
(iv) does not have sufficient power to attain a speed greater than 50 kilometres per hour on level ground within a distance of two kilometres from a standing start, and
(v) weighs more than 35 kilograms but less than 55 kilograms, but does not include a bicycle or power bicycle.

Note: Some vehicles may appear to be mopeds. However, if they exceed the weight of 55 kg or the speed of 50 km/h, they do not fall into the moped classification and are, instead, considered motorcycles.





It certainly seems to be the case that most jurisdictions don't include weight class as part of the motor vehicle or highway traffic code definition, so I think the specification lies in a different Statute or Act. I have the impression that the weight limit is more of a regulation on ebike/moped manufacturers & importers, but I'm fairly certain it's in force the world over.

Have you not noticed that all turnkey ebikes sold come in under 35 kg? (I'm sure there's an exception out there to prove the rule). The Tidalforce for example comes in at 30kg stock (probably why Ont. picked 28kg :) ), & a hair under 35kg with the second battery pack. Hard to believe it's just a coincidence. So anyone thinking of building an ebike for sale to the public needs to do some research on this to be on the 'safe' side. I think you'll find it to be hidden in some regulation somewhere, I'm sure.


Of course it doesn't come as a surprise that Quebec's regs are distinct & separate! :lol: Quebec's laws, derived as they are from the french, fundamentally place the protection of society ahead of the individual. So if anything I would expect the limit to be lower.

Here's an <A HREF="http://canadagazette.gc.ca/partII/2001/20010411/html/sor117-e.html">article</A> that sheds light as to why Canada is saddled with a 500W limit when at the time they were considering harmonizing with US limits.

The SAAQ, MMIC, Groupe Procycle Inc., EPS Energy and Propulsion Systems, and CEVEQ agreed with the proposal to limit the maximum power output rating of the motor to 500 watts

Once again it was to satisfy the Quebec interests & a Quebec company, namely EPS (more commonly known as Bionix) that helped shape the law to also serve as trade barrier while hiding behind the guise of safety. Bionix only sells 350W systems knowing that American companies selling high powered 750W models aren't going to waste their time modifiying them for a market as small as Canada.
 
The page you are referring too with the weight restriction is provincial. Thankfully NB doesn't have that restriction. Although I do understand that being from ON you have a tendancy to think ON is all of Canada. :)

Anything on weight on a transport Canada webpage? As a double SLA pack user I find this weight thing VERY annoying.
 
Although I do understand that being from ON you have a tendancy to think ON is all of Canada.

Are you guys up north bordering on civil war? :D
Here I thought Quebecians were the major trouble-makers...
The sooner the provinces began seceding, the sooner the provinces become states ... bwah hah hah hah...
 
Xyster I agree the sooner the provinces start splitting up into smaller provinces the size of a typical US state and then each of these little provinces joins the US and gets 2 US senators each, the sooner "Canada" will control the US senate. :)
 
Lessss said:
The page you are referring too with the weight restriction is provincial. Thankfully NB doesn't have that restriction. Although I do understand that being from ON you have a tendancy to think ON is all of Canada. :)

Sorry, not quite.
Do you even know where 'oil country' is? :evil:
Here's a clue, my little province is the largest supplier of oil to the Excited States.
I think it's gonna be a foot race to the door which of the two provinces secedes first! :lol:





Lessss said:
Anything on weight on a transport Canada webpage? As a double SLA pack user I find this weight thing VERY annoying.

Nothing that I've found yet, & I've done extensive searches of their site with various keywords. I'll keep an eye open for it. Yes it does seem to vary between regions, but as I pointed out, it may be in some other legislation. There are a smattering of regulations that touch on ebikes scattered throughout various pieces of legislation. The drunk driving being one such example that redefines an ebike for the purposes of the CC.


I wouldn't worry about it too much in the near term. If people aren't concerned about exceeding the power & speed limitation, well, in for a penny, in for a kilo. I'm only bring it up to point out that anyone who thinks they can build a monster frame with a raft of batteries on it & call it an ebike because they paint a fake crank & chainring on it is deluding themself & must think the police are be pretty damn stoopid.

You can get away with the one violation of being overpowered & the police will for the most part not be concerned if you're discreet about it, because no one will come to them to complain. But an obviously large, beefy looking bike zipping by at high speed is like waving a red flag in their face & spitting on their shoes, daring them to take you on. The weight restriction is just another piece of amunition they have at their disposal to impound the vehicle & is a lot easier to verify than the wattage on the motor.


In closing off this topic, just want to pass this along. The BC regs don't seem to specify a max on weight but do have a few unique requirements that I've haven't come across anywhere else yet. You can rule out battery backpacks in BC. Ebikes are not the undiscovered territory as some might think. The legislators are well aware of how people think to try an circumvent the law.




Generators

4 A motor assisted cycle must not be equipped with a generator, alternator or similar device powered by a combustion engine





Brake performance requirement

5 (1) A motor assisted cycle must be equipped with brakes on all wheels or on each axle.

(2) The braking system must be capable of bringing the motor assisted cycle, while being operated at a speed of 30 km/hr, to a full stop within 9 m from the point at which the brakes were applied.




Drive system and equipment securement

6 The motor drive system and all energy storage devices of a motor assisted cycle must be secured to prevent movement in any direction relative to the motor assisted cycle while the motor assisted cycle is operating.





Electrical terminals

7 All electrical terminals on a motor assisted cycle must be completely insulated or covered.



http://www.qp.gov.bc.ca/statreg/reg/m/motorvehicle/151_2002.htm
 
Xyster I agree the sooner the provinces start splitting up into smaller provinces the size of a typical US state and then each of these little provinces joins the US and gets 2 US senators each, the sooner "Canada" will control the US senate.

Ah ah! I see what you and your friends have planned: the ol' let 'em think they've won as they're swallowing us up, while we nibble our way out, from the inside to the top. Vedddy clever! I see having hooked all of the U.S. left and some of the right on the idea of "universal health care" you're well on your way already. Can't wait to start waiting in an 8 month line for a critical hip or heart surgery when I'm 60....
Frankly, I don't think we'd be any worse off under the control of a cabal of foolish Canadian political puppet masters than we already are under our own elected, corporate-connected marionettes.

Just try to be good to your silly friends from the south, k? :D
 
Nothing to apologize for, I was feigning indignant outrage. :wink:
Was only highlighting the location info beneath my avatar.

I went with the ON regs cuz it was the lowest common denominator. Ontario has had a total ban on ebikes up until last Oct & even now are on a 3 year probation period. I figured that whatever's legal there, should pass muster anywhere in Canada. Anyway, don't lose any sleep over a couple of SLA's. I think it's common sense that there's got to be a weight cutoff somewhere. You can't call an electrified Honda Civic with one wheel missing & hacked in cranks & pedals an ebike.


I'd like to try a velo at some point & even if I got one light enuf, I just know that if it has any kind of motor in it the cops would be on me like a Tim Horton's grand opening. Hell, they'd probably pull me off the road even if it didn't have a motor, just 4 being different.

This expectation of cops having to carry watt meters isn't how the real world works. As indicated in the Canada Gazette article, all the cops need to look 4 is the compliance label. They remove & impound first & then it's incumbent upon you to prove compliance in court. The compliance label is the choke point. So print up a bunch of these labels on metallic foil to go along with yer 500W sticker. :twisted:




THIS VEHICLE IS A POWER
ASSISTED BICYCLE AND
MEETS ALL THE
REQUIREMENTS UNDER
SECTION 2(1) OF THE
CANADA MOTOR VEHICLE
SAFETY REGULATIONS.



CE VÉHICULE EST UNE BICYCLETTE
ASSISTÉE ET RECONTRE LA NORME 2(1)
DU RÈGLEMENT SUR LA SÉCURITÉ
DES VÉHICULES AUTOMOBILES DU CANADA
 
Those stickers can be found on a variety of bikes from asia that don't even have provisions for any kind of pedal drive. If that's all cops are going to check for that would be great. Reminds me of the fake DOT markings on some aftermarket automotive lights. :lol:
 
http://e-ride.ca/Electric_Scooters/Motorino_XPh.html

44kg without batteries. Sold in a store as a legal e-bike in BC.
 
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