Hubmonster 94% efficient 7kw NO LONGER FOR SALE

I decided it's time to unleash the beast to the rest of the world and stop hogging all the fun for myself. Without question this is the best hubmotor available to us DIYers for under $5,000, maybe for any price, so it's well worth the bike mods needed to run HubMonster if you want high power. eg With simple ventilation mods I run mine at 111V nominal with combined controller limits of 250A/380A battery/phase limits, resulting in no heat problems running a 5" wide 19.25" OD scooter tire pushing a 400lb load with incredible acceleration and a top speed on the flats of well over 100mph. I'm a beached whale, so imagine the performance you light guys can experience.

It's got a claimed peak efficiency of 94.6%, and while I can't test efficiency I believe the claim since I ran it in sealed stock form at 15kw hotrodding with a beached whale aboard for 9 months without getting hot. No typical efficiency hubbie can come close. I've also seen a long term decrease in wh/mi of over 15% despite riding harder and slightly faster on average.

It's 6 phases give it the smoothest quietest launches of any hubmotor. The axle is 1" diameter with 15.5mm flats, so no worries about snapping this axle. The stator is coated to protect against corrosion, and the internal terminations of all those phase wires are slathered in a high temp epoxy. For those wanting to push the limits more than I do there's even a thermistor already attached to the stator steel with a 95°C trip point. There's a heavy duty 3 bolt disk brake mount.

The only optional accessory is a 13" alloy rim that bolts to the flange on the motor. The price of the rim is $48. I run a 130/60 13" scooter tire which is a bad boy at over 5" wide with an OD of 19.2" . A 150/70 13 tire should also fit which would be almost an inch wider and if I understand tire sizes correctly will push the diameter above 21". The nice thing about a bolt on rim instead of a built on is that you bring the rim and tire to the tire place and get it installed. Scooter tires are a nightmare to install by hand. The 12 bolt attachment works nicely for manual balancing, and I did mine with extra nuts and washers pretty quickly with trial and error.

The motor has a Kv of 16rpm/volt (edit 18.3rpm/volt with no wheel). I push 210A peak from a 20s20ah20c RC Lipo pack at get it up to 65mph on the highway with voltage sagging to about 75V. To be sure I was stating fact I just weighed myself and the bike with its current pack configuration and I weigh 265lbs (120kg), and the bike 122lbs (55kg). That doesn't include the 25lbs or so commonly in my backpack for the generally uphill ride home. I'm not into high speed on 2 wheels, but with good aero and higher voltage there's lots of unexplored speed, because it's a 10 pole motor with high quality thin laminating steel of approximately 3 lams per mm.

While the motor is 6 phases, I figured out how to run it with dual 3 phase controllers. There aren't any sinc issues, because the dual 3 phase windings are 1 tooth different on the timing, so a single throttle is fine. That means cheap controllers work great. I've been using about $250 worth of controllers to run 15kw with a totally stress free system. If you go the cheap controller route, you'll probably want the newest CA for throttle control, and you'll need a stand alone shunt too. I'm becoming a distributor for Grin, so I can help make that happen if needed.

Shipping is out of China directly from the factory, because I simply can't afford a network of distribution centers across the world to hold ocean shipped inventory for local ground shipping, and all that overhead is unlikely to save much if any money anyway. The raw motor is 15.6kg and with rim the overall shipping weight is typically 21 kg, and air shipping runs $10-13/kg depending on your part of the world. We do once a week batches, and you get your motor within 30 days. In 8 months only one was late, and most were pleasantly quicker. Chinese New Year is coming up, so we'll probably have to stop taking orders from late this month thru mid February.

This motor is the real deal. It's performance is possible due to the high efficiency, which is the result of advanced design and very high build quality. Things like bigger amounts of higher quality stator steel and more copper, and curved instead of flat magnets are part of what create the higher efficiency. It's not just peak efficiency that benefits either, because the 6 phase design creates broader and flatter power and efficiency curves. eg with the factory setup the motor hits peak efficiency at over 3kw and at peak power it's still 89% efficient.

Did I mention how quiet this motor is? There's none of that startup growl or buzzing or ringing. It's really just the sound of the tire on the road.

Here's a thread discussing the motor since I started testing it in July. http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=41604

Each controller sees a phase-to-phase resistance of 0.032ohm (combine them in parallel for 0.016ohm for comparison to a 3 phase motor).

Kv is 18.3rpm/volt (no wheel, and same running 1 controller or both)

No load current (same running one controller or 2)
3.4A at 1965rpm
1.5A at 1000rpm
1.0A at 700rpm

HubMonster $539 usd (edit Dec 2015 price increased to $587)
Rim $48
Shipping $10-13/kg

John

pics
pics
pics

Some pics. I still have to learn about editing videos and take some good ones.





For a sense of scale here's the Beast next to a trembling X5304...Trembling because it's afraid someone is going to talk the factory into one more turn on the windings, change the axle and covers a bit, and add spoke flanges. :lol:

For anyone who bottom line cost is more important than time, there's some available space in some crates coming ocean freight for a bulk customer order for electric RTVs. A $500 deposit gets your motor order a free ride to Louisiana, and you pay actual shipping from there. 3 or more motors gets you a 10% price discount, as well as a lower air cargo shipping rate, which gets them to you quick at a few bucks per kilo discount, so that's another way to save over $100/motor.

John

thanks for bringing this to market, John.. Am i hearing this right??? 25 pound outrunner with 6 phases. ventable. two controller ready. high voltage ready. did i hear temp sensor already installed ! this is my mid drive dream motor. Pedals might be optional now with redundant electric partsz. military style!!

hydro-one said:

thanks for bringing this to market, John.. Am i hearing this right??? 25 pound outrunner with 6 phases. ventable. two controller ready. high voltage ready. did i hear temp sensor already installed ! this is my mid drive dream motor. Pedals might be optional now with redundant electric partsz. military style!!

Click to expand...

There's only one AL cover, so for mid-drive use trimming the 15.4kg down to 13kg is probably doable....Plenty of unnecessary steel that's only needed for in-wheel use. The thermistor is a temp controlled switch, not a sensor, so just rig a light or a buzzer to tell you shut it down. If I haven't gotten a sealed one hot, I don't see how you'd overheat a ventilated one without pushing too far into saturation unless you geared it for a ridiculous speed or the vehicle is too heavy.

But yeah, it's a giant very well made outrunner than can handle voltages that make the controllers cost a lot more than the motor. Don't forget the stator already has an anti-corrosion coating too. With your light weight I'd suggest trying 15-20kw electric with a 150lb or less bike and geared for 70mph or less at 20-24s. I know you're a wildman on a DH bike, but electric gets uncontrollable quickly. Luke runs some crazy power, but he's also geared for over 100mph.

You and your buds are gonna need lots of batts, along with backpacks full of folding solar panels for some real wilderness adventures. I got that coming too....just fold them out and plug directly to your bike with no charger, inverter, or anything other than a simple HVC necessary. 8)

John

Will this work for 135mm dropout? I am assuming this will be hub motor? As for the 6-phase motor, do I need 2 controllers to run? I am assuming 2 of the same controller? How would one set it up to run such motor? Final question: This motor or the cromotor? LOL

Nevermind, after reading the thread, I doubt even a 150mm dropout would work. I guess this will only work for mid-drive bike? I read hubmotor, so I thought it would work for typical bike setup.

Yes, 2 controllers and shoot for identical. I missed on my shunt mod and one ended up at 95A and the other at 115A. When I ride really hard one gets slightly warmer. There's no kind of vibration or anything from the motor.

Whether mid-drive or as a hubmotor it's going to require fabrication. That's actually good, because I don't want anyone getting killed. I don't know of a bicycle that I'd want to strap a motor that I'm running fairly conservatively pumping 20hp from the batteries.

Talking about battery side input like we all do reminds me of another point about greater efficiency. It's more power at the wheel. eg I ran the original Hubmonster for a month at 1kw higher input with the same battery and bike. It's more typical efficiency hubmotor with the high pole and slot count design. Despite being geared 10% lower and over 16kw instead of 15kw, it definitely had noticeably less acceleration and power. Saturation wasn't to blame either, because I took that motor all the way up to 30kw.

I've only used the subject motor as a hubmotor on my SuperV with the custom steel swingarm, and a main tube that I turned into a solid core of epoxy+fiberglass to ensure it can handle the power. I've got the 40+lb motor and wheel on the end, and 74V10ah of battery in the swingarm, and the little Fox Float air shock doesn't control all that weight too well. It makes a nice cushy ride, though I have to be careful when bumps team up with curves or turns. It's a great straight line cruiser that pulls like a freight train even with fat me aboard. Here's some pics to give you guys ideas. That's a 21.5" OD 20" bicycle tire on the front.

Damb I want one.

Shipping to Europe?

Boeckstyns said:

Shipping to Europe?

Click to expand...

I haven't shipped to Denmark before. Only Russia so far has had prohibitive air shipping prices and no easy work around, which I really don't understand since they share borders. I will find out definitively on Monday, but my guess to Copenhagen is $12/kg.

Too bad the world isn't a whole lot smaller. Then I'd just ride around on my ebike delivering motors in person and getting to meet all of you guys in person.

John

Yeah they didn't do that globalization job quite well enough! :lol:
I think Russia is a story all to itself when it comes to... Well pretty much everything.
I'm a bit lazy to read through the details again so I'll just ask you. How much would a hub + rim weigh? (Implicitly asking how much it would cost to ship at 12$)

Cheers

For the one I had sent to me I got billed for 24kg, but someone had their thumb on the scale, and the real number is 21-22kg depending on packaging, so call it $264 to be safe. The motors are built to go directly on scooters at the same facility, so there's been some variance in the packaging, which will be solved with proper form fitting foam for proper protection of the motor harness in the near future.

John, what do you think of 19" wheel and 28S on my motorcycle? Talking at least 70mph, right? What was the spacing on this guy?

I got to say, Man... This could make my project a lot easier... And it seems way more attuned to what I'm looking to do with my bike.

Do you have parameters I can plug into the ebikecalc motor simulator I get an idea of performance? What is the spacing, 190 mm? is it possible to run the phases in parallel with a single controller if need be(temporarily)?

Thanks

edit: also, how wide is the rim? the "spokes" are interesting in how narrow they are. I imagine that they would have to be pretty solidly made and I am sure they are built that way, but could you describe the quality of the whole rim assembly?

If you mean 19" OD, then sure, but you don't have to spend the bucks going over 100V. Highway speeds chew thru batteries, so if you want to use speeds like that regularly then I'd suggest as much attention to aero as possible. You also gotta watch the weight with moto stuff, because it adds up quickly. You mentioned before 175lbs, but don't forget the over 40lb rear wheel with motor you'd have, but at 175 total bike weight, then you could weigh up to 210lbs to match me and my bike. As an example of how unstressed my system is, it does just over 70mph no load at the same voltage it sagged to hitting 65mph on the highway, which I do with 20s.

My suggestion would be to use 23s and budget controllers. Then use the CA3 to make it all more controllable.

Yes, the flats are right at 190mm. Cover to cover including the disc brake mount is right at 160mm with most of the difference being on the wire side, so be careful not to overheat the axle modifying the flats. The brake mount protrudes quite a bit and the threads are deep, so that side can be narrowed pretty easily for those who are width limited.

No, you can't combine the phase wires. There are 6 hall sensors too. While the motor will run on only 1 controller, which is what you do to confirm each controller is connected correctly, that is just half the motor. I wouldn't even sell a motor to someone who wanted to try riding it like that. That would be reserved for an emergency hobble home emergency if you blew a controller, but don't even try that without disconnecting the dead one's phase wires and securing the ends to prevent a short. I say that because you might not know half of the motor is plug braking while the other half is operational.

Easier, yeah easier than new axles and liquid cooling by a very long shot. Don't forget about the extra free power and range. I talked about range in a previous post, but power is more about peaks. If the efficiency advantage at 15kw input is only 10%, which I suspect is low at peak based on the copper alone, that's 1500W of extra power that would otherwise be wasted as heat.

John

Hmm. So you're basically suggesting that I either get a new battery.. or rework my current setup with two 9S modules and one 10S module. I guess I could break it at 23S and then use 5S as auxilary. that's a thought.. but I wish I could keep it at 28S as originally planned (lots of work involved reworking the terminations)

I'm trying to understand why we are not able to run the phases in parallel... Wouldn't that just halve the kv? (and be a tad less efficient?)

edit: oh, and my estimate of 175lbs was based on the cromotor. I think with that motor I may be able to pull off 200 lbs. I'm 190lbs. but goodness, john, I feel so bad throwing that 5-10% of my energy away on a cromotor... and just overheating it. This pack is one hell of a pack (at least imho).. it needs to get out and see some amps.


--but then again, if I can get the cromotor (6kW rated?) and gear it to 60mph and put it in a 23" finished wheel.. that's almost a better option since the efficiency curve is scaled over a more practical operation range.

It's a 6 phase motor with each phase turned on by the unique timing of 1 hall sensor. It's not dual windings on the same teeth. That would accomplish nothing. There are 24 slots 4 for each phase.

Less efficient is less efficient, and the 6 phase alignment broadens and flattens the efficiency and power curves, so the difference only gets bigger. That's why I see a real world improvement in consumption of about 15%. Using 10% in my previous post is another example of my conservatism instead of hyping when I post about what I run.

If you want to try using an ebike hubbie at high voltage in a big wheel pushing a 200lb motorcycle, don't come crying later. Just compare your 30% load increase (175lbs vs my guess of 80lb ebike) to your 20% gear reduction (5.5" smaller wheel than your 29"), and the end result is painfully obvious. Maybe you can pump enough liquid through to prevent failure, but I'll run rings around you having a blast leaving you stuck close to cars with scooter performance and worrying about overheating.

This is the one place on the forum I feel it's appropriate to speak my mind if another motor is brought up. I lived with motors like the the V1 Cromotor and Xlyte H series but with a 40mm stator, since 2008. HubmonsterHE is easily double my old motors, while your Cromotor is only 25% more, actually less than that because mine were speed winds in smaller wheels, so closer to equal in power at realistic voltages. On bike frames you guys can't even use the torque advantage due to the high CG and short wheelbase, so it's irrelevant. I'm not saying 8 or 10kw isn't fun for you, but it's lackluster for me due to the load difference. Seriously, put 75lbs in a backpack or hung on your bike, and then come back and tell me how great the performance is.

That's were me being a lardass really paid off for everyone, because I wasn't satisfied and kept looking. Now I'm satisfied. I hammered on it for 6 months and thousands of miles, so I'm comfortable saying if you have a load less than or equal to mine then you can enjoy incredible performance with a bone stock motor and affordable controllers.

Figure out were to save 25lbs, so you can enjoy the same performance I do without eating a lower power to weight ratio. On my current build I saved 10lbs just by going with a 16" moto rim instead of 17" and careful selection of the hub. PM me a list of components and their weight and maybe I can help you find even more weight savings.

John

I have calculated I could hit about 80mph with 19.2" wheel.. I guess even if I became a little baby and didn't go that fast--the thing would pull to about 50mph. What is the efficiency cruising at 35mph for me at 93V?

What's the rim width?

That's why I say you have to address aero to run that voltage. The difference between 65mph with me in the best tuck I can muster on a narrow ebike vs having to punch a bigger hole in the air with a wider taller motor at 80mph is a huge power difference unless you make you and your bike more slippery than I am.

Amps are amps. Phase amps are what the motor sees, and the higher voltage means current limiting extends to a higher rpm. You could see more acceleration, though that depends on the controllers, but if so it will definitely be less efficient acceleration. Going to higher power with a lighter load doesn't concern me. Going to higher power via voltage at the same load I run is still untested, but I can feel the drag of an extra 25lbs in my backpack returning from the store. That makes me worry about higher power and voltage with a bigger total load and the same gearing, ie wheel size. I want you guys to feel at 15kw what I would feel at 20kw+, not the other direction. Our lighter loads is what enables us to take the motors so much farther than the factory can with its 300+lb scooters.

This is all I want for Hubmonster customers , and not even a single :| I know I can help everyone get there.

Hillzofvalp has a monster battery pack to build around. That voltage pushes the no-load speed to 100mph AND his load slightly exceeds mine assuming no bad weight surprises. I'd go mid-drive and try a 25% gear reduction as the starting point. That assures greater performance than I have with only 80-90A from each controller, and a similar top speed assuming about the same aero drag. The resulting lower system stress guarantees success. Plus his moto will ride better and he'll have gearing flexibility with a simple sprocket change.

John

Sounds reAsonable.. I guess I could use the original swing arm and get all the weight up front. I think I've got a 7.8" gap in the frame. I don't know what I would have to do to get that axle in without making significant frame/axle changes. The chain routing would be another issue.

Mid drive phase wires would be like 1 foot long to the controllers... That would be nice I guess. I'd like to explore this mid drive suggestion.

A few questions:

1. The stator looks square and the halls look centered - is there any issue with running this backwards to get the brake mount on the other (left) side?
2. What's the approximate mounting radius from axle center to brake mount hole center?
3. What's the distance from the plane of the outer rim edge (max rim width) to the plane of the brake mount face?
   (i.e. lay a couple of straightedges across the faces and measure between them)
4. What's the rim width, outer rim edge to outer edge (the same outer rim edge as in the question above)?

Yeah, I know, goofy questions, but....

John, I'm so glad to see you're finally selling the Hubmonster. I'm honestly quite torn... I don't think I need this much power, and I'll probably still go with the MiniMonster because of weight, power, 3-phase simplicity (I've been eyeing the Maxcontroller) and the fact that as of yet, I still plan to have pedals and use them... we'll see how that goes. I'd like to think I'll stay fit as long as I have pedals, because if they're there I'll use them.

I may just have to build two trikes with each motor... one for my wife, and one for me =) She still thinks ebikes are cheesy/weak/overpriced, and dislikes bicycles in general, but I think once I get that leaning trike rolling she'll change her tune and want one of her own. In which case, she'll get mine after I build a faster one. I might have to try a longer wheelbase if I use this motor, though; I've heard that similar designs handle quite sensitively at high speeds, which is good and bad. A long wheelbase might help stabilize that. 15kw on a recumbent with good aero could be awfully scary, it'll have to have at least one trip to the salt flats =)

Once we get settled after the move in 4 months, I hope to get started!!!

And John, you must get some GoPro footage of your monster! I'd really love to witness the hill-climbing power and off-the-line acceleration!

teklektik said:

A few questions:

1. The stator looks square and the halls look centered - is there any issue with running this backwards to get the brake mount on the other (left) side?
2. What's the approximate mounting radius from axle center to brake mount hole center?
3. What's the distance from the plane of the outer rim edge (max rim width) to the plane of the brake mount face?
   (i.e. lay a couple of straightedges across the faces and measure between them)
4. What's the rim width, outer rim edge to outer edge (the same outer rim edge as in the question above)?

Yeah, I know, goofy questions, but....

Click to expand...

Not goofy at all, actually quite pertinent to figuring out if and how it will fit.

1. Yes the slots are straight and I'm virtually certain it will run equally well in either direction, though I've never tried it. All of the 13" scooter rear tires I've seen are directional, so be alert when getting them mounted since the rim only goes on one way. The motor and rim hole are tapered for a perfect fit resulting in a one way mounting. The tires make a lot more noise and wind turbulence running backward. I know that from a nightmare tire install with a built-on 13" rim of another motor, so difficult it stays on backward.

2. I'm unclear about which dimension you want, but here are all of them. The support lip for the brake rotor hole is 58mm in diameter. That lip is 5mm thick, so the ID of the hole for the axle seal is 48mm ID. The axle is 25.4mm, so 11.3mm of space. The 3 bolt holes are on a radius from center of between 39 and 40mm which makes putting the bolt holes in some sprockets a bit tricky if you're going mid drive. The bolt hole spacing is called 68mm center to center for the brake rotor, apparently a scooter standard.

3. The tire is wider than the rim, and my caliper won't fit thru the rim holes to measure the rim, but the plane of the brake is 18mm beyond the plane of the tire and appears to be about 25mm beyond the plane of the rim edge. The motor is somewhat tapered, but the minimum clearance between the motor and plane of the brake mount is 32mm.

4. The tire I have is a 120 and it matched that width exactly. I never get leaned over that far, so I could easily grind the lip off at the edge and reduce it to 110mm or less. I couldn't measure exactly, but the rim is around 105mm wide, though I think it's called a 3.5"x13"


If there are plans to shorten the disk brake mount involved, the bearing extends part way into that mount, so it can't be cut off flush with the motor.

Also of possible interest, the widest part of the rim is at a radius about 180mm, and the widest part of the tire is at 205mm. The narrowest 13" tires I could find online were 110/90's by Michelin and Pirelli. They're listed as scooter front tires, but I don't see why they wouldn't work, and by the numbers they work out to be 20-21" OD tire.

John

John - thanks for the detailed info (quick, too!)
Very helpful....

xenodius said:

John, I'm so glad to see you're finally selling the Hubmonster. I'm honestly quite torn... I don't think I need this much power, and I'll probably still go with the MiniMonster because of weight, power, 3-phase simplicity (I've been eyeing the Maxcontroller) and the fact that as of yet, I still plan to have pedals and use them... we'll see how that goes. I'd like to think I'll stay fit as long as I have pedals, because if they're there I'll use them.

I may just have to build two trikes with each motor... one for my wife, and one for me =) She still thinks ebikes are cheesy/weak/overpriced, and dislikes bicycles in general, but I think once I get that leaning trike rolling she'll change her tune and want one of her own. In which case, she'll get mine after I build a faster one. I might have to try a longer wheelbase if I use this motor, though; I've heard that similar designs handle quite sensitively at high speeds, which is good and bad. A long wheelbase might help stabilize that. 15kw on a recumbent with good aero could be awfully scary, it'll have to have at least one trip to the salt flats =)

Once we get settled after the move in 4 months, I hope to get started!!!

And John, you must get some GoPro footage of your monster! I'd really love to witness the hill-climbing power and off-the-line acceleration!

Click to expand...

Get ready to be torn some more. There's a 3rd motor, the MidMonster, also a 6 phase beauty, but with a built on 10" alloy rim. In fact the entire rotor except the magnet backing rim is AL, making the motor only 12kg including the rim. It too has a disc brake mount for easy mid-drive use though it is a bit width challenged. It's not quite as powerful or as efficient as Hubmonster, but it's a great motor smack in between MiniMonster and HubMonster.

Now you need 3:
-an offroad Hanebrink-like bike with a hubmotor using the 2 speed mini that's very light and pedalable
-a mid drive high efficiency trike with power and pedals.
-a faired road rocket with power and speed. Sure it has pedals for legal reasons, but an electronic chain, so the pedals turn a regening small motor, and while it's not a lot of power when riding hard, the vehicle is so efficient thru the air and at the motor that a hundred watts of recharge along with 50-100W continuous charge from the sun does add meaningful range.

I'm so slow at building that someone needs to do these things. It might as well be you. Everyone needs multiple ebikes in the stable anyway. 8)

John