eLation 200watt kit (Australia)

[zx6rj1]

It's been a Year since I posted this review...

And the kit is still going strong . Very durable. I ride it nearly every day, I actually prefer it more than the motorbike which is gathering dust in the garage. I dropped the bike few times hard enough to break the pedal, but the kit never needed any attention. Kudos !!!

There is no change of battery performance too. Very happy.

I also found that going to the bush with eBike is a real joy. I don't know why but at low gear, full battery power, gravel, mud etc. It FEELS really fast! I went places hard enough to displace my rear light yet the kit never seem to move.

Now... I'm going to Switzerland and taking this eBike there as primary transport (not the trip lol). Thought I might replace that broken pedal for aesthetics reason and got some cheapie at KMart. I thought it was a bit tight when installing it but no dramas... until the shipment company came and told me I had to take the pedal off. Then the problem started as when unscrewing it, it actually got tighter!! Due to my stupidity thread had been ruined

Emailed Allan today for replacement part and he gave be the best solution ever for that problem (Thanks Allan!)

I'll post some pics from sunny Europe

[lesspedal]

Good to see you'r still going strong.
Best of luck in Europe .
What was the magic solution to the stripped thread ?

[nitecheck]

I week on. I have always been a hub fan due to there there low tech simplicity & sturdiness - but the geared kits have always been whispering - try me ....we have gears, we are efficent, we a ultra light .....we....more promises. Not that I am giving up my faithful hub racers - but I am now the proud owner of an 2nd hand Elation unit & am having some teething problems. The unit it self is practically new - but an earlier version - using a plastic idler rather than a cog. Need to up date this - the plastic idler is just plain noisy. Overall I'm very happy with the quality of the product. The crank unit for me - is the jewel in the crown for the kit & the primary reason for my purchase. To match my old crank setup of 26/38/48 & personal preference - I have swapped out the supplied chain wheels for some juicy XT cogs. Swap out was easy - 20 mins later you have a excellent rebuilt & upgraded crankset. I still have to look at the crank arms though - they are WAY over engineered for strength & can do with some lightening. I want a professional job done - so they will be off to a shop with a CNC cutter to trim & skelteton arms to reduce weight but retain strength. A super polish latter & these babies will be a great highlight on the bike.
The kit is fully installed & operational - but I've got some questions that I hope other elation owners can help with.
Ok - all the above was the good - now the not so good. Usual story with 2nd hand units - I got a discount on price with the disclaimer that battery cut''s in & out - the cost was still pricey - but much better than new. I thought it may have been a matter of breaking a battery pack - finding a dud cell or more. Resolderding and/or replacing & off we go. On opening the pack - Mnnnn not 18650's. The seller was up front - so I have no issue there - my problem is I can not figure out what's up. It's a 24v 8 gel cell (like Ping lifepo4 or a lipo) 10AH - 2007 built battery with BMS - alloy cased frame mount model. I'm guessing it's LiMns02 due to light weight, year of manufature & a voltage of 28.7v fully charged. 8 cells each appear around 3.6v so either lifepo4 or aged limnso2 (though it is difficult to identify wiring & am relying on reading through lot of hot glue). Voltage checked at 3 pin output (2 neg 1 postitive pin). Neg1/positive 13.6v & 28.7v with Neg 2/positive. Without load (bike upside down) I have instant power from throttle & it appears it could run all day at high speed. However when I ride the bike - LVC's appear very quickly (within 300 mtrs) & speed is way down on what on would be expect on a 200w/36v hub motor - about a 3rd or less.
There is a test/ON button on the alloy case. When not connected to the motor 3 of 4 leds light up bright red. Right to left. When the motor is connected far left & right LED's go out leaving the 2 centre LED lit....not at all sure what to make of this. There was a remote motion sensitive alarm & siren attached to the motor - but this had a short & was cooking the plastic housing - fire hazard & has been removed. I doubt the motor needs cooling at this stage - but I'm sure I have some alloy curved heat sinks about doing nothing - so might as well place these where the alarm was.
Q1. Any help with the battery issue would be appreciated - I kind leaning towards an upgrade to headways.
Q2 What do the LED's mean & is what my pack doing significant?
Q3 Whats the top speed I can expect on flat ground 24v/10ah 40t primary with rear cog being
Q4 This kit has a plastic idler & overall the unit is very noisy compared to a hub motor - a. is this normal & 2. is a toothed cog quieter (with idler lifted the kit is "quite" quiet) Thinking about doing away the tensioner - but would prefer to keep a quite one.
Q5. Is any one overvolting the motor? If so what voltage & are any mods required.
Q6. Does any one know where you get a 300w or 500w motors - cylcone a selling kits very cheaply - but I am only really after an additional motor
Sorry - lots of info & questions - hopefully this is helpful in identifying what needs to be done - to get TIGRR2 up & running
Thanks in advance
Nitecheck

[nitecheck]

I week on. I have always been a hub fan due to there there low tech simplicity & sturdiness - but the geared kits have always been whispering - try me ....we have gears, we are efficent, we a ultra light .....we....more promises. Not that I am giving up my faithful hub racers - but I am now the proud owner of an 2nd hand Elation unit & am having some teething problems. The unit it self is practically new - but an earlier version - using a plastic idler rather than a cog. Need to up date this - the plastic idler is just plain noisy. Overall I'm very happy with the quality of the product. The crank unit for me - is the jewel in the crown for the kit & the primary reason for my purchase. To match my old crank setup of 26/38/48 & personal preference - I have swapped out the supplied chain wheels for some juicy XT cogs. Swap out was easy - 20 mins later you have a excellent rebuilt & upgraded crankset. I still have to look at the crank arms though - they are WAY over engineered for strength & can do with some lightening. I want a professional job done - so they will be off to a shop with a CNC cutter to trim & skelteton arms to reduce weight but retain strength. A super polish latter & these babies will be a great highlight on the bike.
The kit is fully installed & operational - but I've got some questions that I hope other elation owners can help with.
Ok - all the above was the good - now the not so good. Usual story with 2nd hand units - I got a discount on price with the disclaimer that battery cut''s in & out - the cost was still pricey - but much better than new. I thought it may have been a matter of breaking a battery pack - finding a dud cell or more. Resolderding and/or replacing & off we go. On opening the pack - Mnnnn not 18650's. The seller was up front - so I have no issue there - my problem is I can not figure out what's up. It's a 24v 8 gel cell (like Ping lifepo4 or a lipo) 10AH - 2007 built battery with BMS - alloy cased frame mount model. I'm guessing it's LiMns02 due to light weight, year of manufature & a voltage of 28.7v fully charged. 8 cells each appear around 3.6v so either lifepo4 or aged limnso2 (though it is difficult to identify wiring & am relying on reading through lot of hot glue). Voltage checked at 3 pin output (2 neg 1 postitive pin). Neg1/positive 13.6v & 28.7v with Neg 2/positive. Without load (bike upside down) I have instant power from throttle & it appears it could run all day at high speed. However when I ride the bike - LVC's appear very quickly (within 300 mtrs) & speed is way down on what on would be expect on a 200w/36v hub motor - about a 3rd or less.
There is a test/ON button on the alloy case. When not connected to the motor 3 of 4 leds light up bright red. Right to left. When the motor is connected far left & right LED's go out leaving the 2 centre LED lit....not at all sure what to make of this. There was a remote motion sensitive alarm & siren attached to the motor - but this had a short & was cooking the plastic housing - fire hazard & has been removed. I doubt the motor needs cooling at this stage - but I'm sure I have some alloy curved heat sinks about doing nothing - so might as well place these where the alarm was.
Q1. Any help with the battery issue would be appreciated - I kind leaning towards an upgrade to headways.
Q2 What do the LED's mean & is what my pack doing significant?
Q3 Whats the top speed I can expect on flat ground 24v/10ah 40t primary with rear cog being a 12t
Q4 This kit has a plastic idler & overall the unit is very noisy compared to a hub motor - a. is this normal & 2. is a toothed cog quieter (with idler lifted the kit is "quite" quiet) Thinking about doing away the tensioner - but would prefer to keep a quite one.
Q5. Is any one overvolting the motor? If so what voltage & are any mods required.
Q6. Does any one know where you get a 300w or 500w motors - cylcone a selling kits very cheaply - but I am only really after an additional motor
Sorry - lots of info & questions - hopefully this is helpful in identifying what needs to be done - to get TIGRR2 up & running
Thanks in advance
Nitecheck

[lesspedal]

Can't answer all your questions, but,
As far as i am aware elation kits were early v1 nimh batts, v2 lifepo4, yours sound like lifepo4.
3.6 volts per cell is about right= 28.8 v.
Most likely you are pulling to many amps causing lvc to cut power, caused by using too high a gear, the best way is to watch led on the throttle, keeping it green, too high a load rapidly causes voltage sag, yellow led will light, you need to change down, throttle back or pedal more or do all three or led will go red rapidly followed by lvc. [ yellow led will come on at about 22.5v ]
With these type of systems, one needs to get the hang of riding it, using a combination of power and selecting the correct gear.

Leds on top of case, leave on charger overnight and then check them, ther'e not really much use for anything.

Tension idler is a normal idler off any rear gear derailler.

Most noise comes from metal planetry gears [ unlike geared hub motors which use nylon type gears to keep noise down, until they melt ].

Some have tried to overvolt these 24v motors but have had bad luck with it.

Same headline brand motor as cyclone but some cyclone ones are ccw . elation are all cw.

[dman]

Hi,

I'm trying to install one of these kits and want to be sure of some steps. When attaching the motor to the frame, it says to put the gear changing cable above the metal mounting plate of the motor. Does that mean in the gap of the mounting plate, or on the other side of the mounting plate above the gap? It isn't so clear. A video demo would be good, or a few more picture angles overall. I think you can unscrew the gear changing cable and change which side it goes later if it is wrong.

Also, I think as long as the motor is aligned correctly and fixed tight to the frame, the installation should be fine. Is that correct?

(I haven't read all 14 other pages to see if this has been answered.)

Thanks for any assistance.

[heathyoung]

Cyclone supply both CW and CCW, the only difference is the freewheel and some resistors internally. I believe that the CCW orientation was used due to better motor efficiency (through timing), but its not entirely suitable for all applications.

Overvolting is risky, with this setup you want more torque rather than RPM. They are very easy to mod for more power ~ 400W is easily done, without heating issues - uphill I have drawn 600W continuous from these motors (you want a decent battery for this).

If your rear derailer cable gets in the way - change it for a sheathed cable - DO NOT use a brake cable, but use a proper non-stretch housing and cable. Running the cable over the mount is a half-assed way of doing the job.

These things really need a good ammeter like a watts-up or cycle analyst, its easy to kill a battery if you are riding by the LED's on the throttle. If you have a big enough battery you wont get yellow or red LED's if you stall it up, I never could.

I aways found the efficiency of the cyclone way down as compared to a hub motor with the same speed/distance. Not sure why.

[lesspedal]

Nite check.
If you get a new battery, think about a 20 ah, possibly from ping batteries.
If you get hold of a 300w motor you will definitley need 20ah.

200w motor will peak at around 400w, 300w around 500w peak.

The higher the gears you use the more amps you will pull, without some serious pedalling.

I have a CA fitted, good for w/hrs klm, amp hrs used, cycles done etc, however it's easier to watch yellow led on throttle than watching voltage/amps/watts on ca.


To Dman,

Gear cables go between motor mount and motor, sliding along mount when changing gears, use a little dry lube on them.
Mine has been going like this for over 2 yrs, no sign of wear, later on you can think about some sort of sheathing if you are worried about it.

When installing kit follow the supplied instructions to the letter, also same with operating instructions.

What part of melb are you in ?

Cheers.

[dman]

Thanks for the replies. Sounds like you are getting good use out of your kit. Hopefully it keeps going and going for years.

I'm in the Eastern suburbs.

[heathyoung]

True on the CA small screen - its too bloody hard to read - The clone I made uses a large screen (like the EV version of the CA) - my eyes are too poor to read the numbers on the smaller version when moving!

[zx6rj1]

Good to see you'r still going strong.
Best of luck in Europe .
What was the magic solution to the stripped thread ?

The solution was Alan sent me a free replacement

My bike arrived today so quickly I reassembled the pedal successfully. I went for a quick ride to a town near Lausanne after work. What a beautiful place.

The swiss are real gentlemen on the road. They will wait for you patiently. I try to keep reminding myself to ride on the right hand side . The odometer is showing 2790km.

Roads are *very* steep. on the "less steep" innercity slopes I did 45kph with no pedalling and no motor. On these slopes going uphill with the motor is very pleasant. Minimal pedalling. But on the country side its *ridiculously* steep that I wouldn't want to come down without brakes keeping the speed at 15kph-ish. Anything above this I wouldn't be able to stop in emergency.

Now, some pics:

Elation and Aussie promotion! A guy came and talk to me in broken english... can I see your bike? He was quite amused. There's a bit more eBikes around compared to Melbourne. Also the culture of cycling is different. The Swiss are much more relaxed compared to the speed pursuit of Melbourne lycra crowd.




See the hill there?




Vines, old houses (18th centuries some of them)... beautiful.




In Swiss, even windows are ridiculously beautiful

[lesspedal]

Good to see you, and the bike, made it there.

Lovely pics, guess those hills will try out the Elation.

[zx6rj1]

I took the Elation for the most torturous test to date . Starting from Lausanne then going around the lake Leman (lake Geneva) to Montreux, Vevey, Villenueve then crossing to France - Evian, Thonon and various small towns along the way back to Switzerland in Geneva.

Total distance was 136km and took 11hrs to complete (relaxed riding and enjoying schenery). Hence I took the frugal approach with the battery, basically to use it only on ascending part. And there were *a lot* of it. I saw the first yellow indicator light at 120km past France and approaching Geneva. Then the next 15km saw the first red light. Not bad at all for a tiny battery package!

Route map (google)

Depart 9:30 at the picturesque Ouchy area of Lausanne.




The road between Lausanne and Montreux. Perfect weather!




Off the beaten track nearing French Border. The border itself was like a toll booth and the person just simply waved me on, not interested in any passport.




Endless French villages like this at Yvoire. If I had to stop and take pictures everytime I saw something interesting I would never got to my destination!




Everytime I park the bike people would glance at the motor/battery. Why eBike is not yet a primary transport in such beautiful and hilly countries actually begs belief.

[dman]

Fully installed and operational!

The whole setup was a bit fiddly and delayed due to various issues.

I had to fix the motor-mounting flexi-clamps to fit around my larger bike tube. It turns out these are
standard 06B (3/8) chain links used in industry. To add a chain link, grind off link end, then punch out link.
Either add a connector + 1/2 link + connector, or full link + connector.

In my search for chain links, I went to a few motor scooter places and ended up at an industrial products company ("G & R Industrial Products P/L" near my work) who had the links and the guy was very helpful and helped me complete the task.
This is the company if anyone is interested: http://www.yellowpages.com.au/vic/colli ... sting.html

To complete the job I had to get 20mm heatshrink tubing from Dick Smith (can be sourced from many place) to have as-good-as-new flexi-clamps.

Review:
The motor adds considerable power and gives an impressive push up the hill from behind. 200w feels like a lot. (It was freezing in the Melbourne cold last night, and even colder when you don't pedal - you feel cold and lazy.) You do notice the noise, it sounds like a hatchback in reverse, but I can live with that. One funny thing is when you are trying to roll the bike backwards (not sitting on it) as you do from time-to-time, it kind of drives the motor and is very stiff to move. The freewheel is only for going forwards.

I have a few outstanding issues:
- I can't get onto the largest (3rd) sprocket on the replaced Elation crank/sprocket set. I'll have to play around with the derailer.

- I lost access to the mounts on both frame tubes to put my drink bottle holders & pump. I have access to one mount point on the seat post tube. I suppose I can screw the holder into one mount point and get some kind of tape or adhesive to secure the rest of the holder. That is a bit annoying, but I suppose it is the sacrife you make to live in the future. Maybe you don't sweat if you don't pedal or you hold and sip on the ride?

I'll need to add a speedometer to see how fast I really go. I only weigh 50kg's. (Maybe the hub motors may have pushed me just as well.)

Happy riding

[lesspedal]

ZX,
A bit more scenery than beach rd, lol.

[lesspedal]

Dman,
You will need to adjust your front derailer like this, http://bicycletutor.com/adjust-front-derailer/

You can always test a 200w hub bike here, don't mention you already have an e bike until after the test ride, make sure to try it on a decent hill.
http://www.electricbicycle.com.au/contact.html

[dman]

Thanks, I'll give that a try.

Some other good tutorials on that website about using gears.

How have people gone with the battery? Is it easy to get a bigger battery using the same mounting or even add another battery in parellel to the system? When this battery dies is it as simple as replacing the cells inside, or do you need to buy a full battery again.

[lesspedal]

Best and easiest way to get another battery is from http://www.pingbattery.com, get 20 ah, could get you around 40 or 50 klms full throttle.
Another place to test 200w hub, http://www.evehicles.com.au/index.shtml?openmenu=5 knoxfield.
Try one out, I would love to hear how it compares to elation system.

[gibbo111]

I have just turned 3000km on my elation with about 120 recharges with the battery. So far so good , yesterday I did a 65km trip and the battery was close to empty but after a charge I measured it at 29.1v. No point getting a bigger battery unless you need the extra range and can justify carrying the extra weight . I could use a 15ah battery to give me some extra km. I wonder if you could instal a ping battery into our battery case otherwise it creates an issue on where to mount it- i like the set up now as its neat and out of the way. Anyone know where the batteries that come with the kit come from?

[lesspedal]

I doubt you could fit any more ah in the existing batt. case.

Alan at Elation would be the only one who knows what brand of batteries he uses,I know they are pouch type. They must be pretty good though to get 65klms from a charge, considering these 200w motors can pull close to 20 amps, 2c,continuous.

Batteries such as ping etc, have to be mounted on rear rack or back pack.

[naughtee]

i'm glad your experience with alan at elation worked out for you, however i should warn other users about dealing with elation bikes here is the link to the forum where others (and myself) have posted their issues with the hardware and the proprietor...

it's up on the aeva forum site, link below
http://www.aeva.asn.au/forums/forum_pos ... 6686#26686

elation bikes wasted pretty much 4 months of my time with no result, thank goodness i didn't end up losing any money (only my precious time and patience), others don's seem to be as fortunate and forked out dosh for faulty equipment and tardy responses

there are many other very similar systems out there with excellent support

[hozozco]

i'm glad your experience with alan at elation worked out for you, however i should warn other users about dealing with elation bikes here is the link to the forum where others (and myself) have posted their issues with the hardware and the proprietor...

there are many other very similar systems out there with excellent support

Wow - that's a bugger!

I bought my kit a few months ago (paid in advance for a much reduced price) and recieved it without any problems. Had the LBS (also an agent for Elation) fit the kit as I'm not mechanically minded.

Had a few problems with the bike (should have paid more and got a better one), but no problems at all with the Elation side of things.

Just love it. I'm not saying there are no problems (how would I know), but thought I'd mention my positive experience. I phoned Alan when deciding to purchase and he seemed nice enough, if perhaps a bit arrogent. I've emailed Alan over minor support questions (the best way to operate etc) and received prompt efficient replies.

naughtee - just for future reference what 'very similar system with excellent support' would you recommend that someone can purchase from one source and have the LBS fit with no drama?

[naughtee]

a mate of mine has recently decided he is going to buy a conversion kit, he has kept me in the loop while he's been "researching", he is far more thoughrough than myself.

for me, after the elation debarkel, i simply sent $500 off to china and got a front wheel 500w hub with 3 sealed gel 12v 10ah batteries (connected in series), it arrived fine, was very easy to install and worked immediately on my existing bike (and tag-along for my child), lately i upgraded the battery to a 36v p04 thingy from www.solarbike.com.au which reduced the weight by 2/3rds, the initial battery did not work smoothly with my hub motor, and the proprietor of solarbike was fantastic, assisted me with all questions and eventually sent me a completely new battery with a controller that fixed the issue and my bike works like a dream (however i'm getting a little jealous with the system my friend is planning), he is dealing directly with www.cyclone-usa.com and has sent through the responses to questions etc these guys also appear to be fantastic (the electronics are a tad over my head, but there are loads of sites out there offering various systems and parts, batteries etc)

i have another set of buddies that bought a system (again from usa, not sure through who though), they had just returned from europe and were inspired to get one of those large bikes with a huge storage area at the back two large pannier thingies with room for their two kids to sit on aswell, (the rear wheel and tyre is rated at over 200kg!), their bike is a custom built jobbie and has a an electric motor running the crank (if you wish i can find out who they used for that but i think the whole bike cost a bucket load)

[hozozco]

a mate of mine has recently decided he is going to buy a conversion kit, he has kept me in the loop while he's been "researching", he is far more thoughrough than myself.

for me, after the elation debarkel, i simply sent $500 off to china and got a front wheel 500w hub with 3 sealed gel 12v 10ah batteries (connected in series), it arrived fine, was very easy to install and worked immediately on my existing bike (and tag-along for my child), lately i upgraded the battery to a 36v p04 thingy from http://www.solarbike.com.au which reduced the weight by 2/3rds, the initial battery did not work smoothly with my hub motor, and the proprietor of solarbike was fantastic, assisted me with all questions and eventually sent me a completely new battery with a controller that fixed the issue and my bike works like a dream (however i'm getting a little jealous with the system my friend is planning), he is dealing directly with http://www.cyclone-usa.com and has sent through the responses to questions etc these guys also appear to be fantastic (the electronics are a tad over my head, but there are loads of sites out there offering various systems and parts, batteries etc)

i have another set of buddies that bought a system (again from usa, not sure through who though), they had just returned from europe and were inspired to get one of those large bikes with a huge storage area at the back two large pannier thingies with room for their two kids to sit on aswell, (the rear wheel and tyre is rated at over 200kg!), their bike is a custom built jobbie and has a an electric motor running the crank (if you wish i can find out who they used for that but i think the whole bike cost a bucket load)

naughtee - Both the 500w hub motor and the systems from cyclone-usa.com are over the Australian 200W limit. This may not be an issue for lots of people, but some people like to stay within the law. Also you outlined your battery issues and said you had to do a bit of 'fiddling' - not all of us are up to 'fiddling'.

It's also a little unfair to compare the Elation system to the cyclone. As far as I can see the cyclone only has one gear at the front - that would be a massive step backwards for my usage. Probably not a problem with 350 or 500w, but it would be with only 200w.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to knock other solutions. I'm just interested if there is another 'kit' that can do what the Elation does (for me at least). I have no doubt there are plenty of custom solutions as good or better than the Elation (even at 200w), but I'm interested in a single kit that my LBS can install.

[dman]

I was planning to go for a decent ride but decided to look at how my cranks spin.

The new crank with sprocket doesn't spin straight on the bottom bracket spindle axle. It starts straight but seems to move left and then back straight - is this a problem? It seems to be put on the square bottom bracket spindle axle correctly, and securely tightened with a wrench. Either the bottom bracket spindle axle is worn or the new crankset with sprocket isn't straight. To my untrained eye they all look OK.

The bike is approx. 8 years old and the crank sets or bottom bracket had never been replaced (or taken off / looked at) until now.

The misalignment is really noticable if I hand spin the pedals backwards (on a wind trainer).

I want to see, based on experience, where the problem may be. I can always take the crankset to a bike shop if that is the problem. This problem is hard to articulate. Any advice?