Should a light wight bike without pedals be a ebike or e-mot

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Should a light wight bike without pedals be a ebike or e-motorcycle ?

Poll ended at Jun 18, 2014 7:07 pm

Yes a up to 40kg bike with bicycle components but without funktional pedals is a ebike.
1
7%
No!
13
93%
 
Total votes: 14

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Should a light wight bike without pedals be a ebike or e-mot

Post by zener » Jun 04, 2014 7:07 pm

When no please write why.

Edit: How can i edit this poll?
Would ad ''electric propeled bike'' if its not for all clear.
Last edited by zener on Jun 04, 2014 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Should a light wight bike without pedals be a ebike or e

Post by biohazardman » Jun 04, 2014 7:13 pm

Bicycles/bikes have pedals. For it to be an ebike it must have pedals and be able to be human powered like other bicycles. Written as such in many laws in many countries going to be hard to change that. You are talking about a scooter or moped if it is without pedals.
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Re: Should a light wight bike without pedals be a ebike or e

Post by amberwolf » Jun 04, 2014 7:17 pm

Should? dunno. To me, if it doesn't have any pedals (whether they are driven by feet or hands or your head or whatever) for human input power, whether or not you ever use them, it's not really a bicycle, and that makes it hard to call it an e-bike, if e-bike means electric bicycle. I have them, but don't use them cuz of my knees, most of the time.

But everyone is going to have their own opinion on that, and even my own has probably changed more than once over the last few years. ;)


Is? Depends on the local laws. Some places require it to have "operable" pedals...some are very specific about what that means, and others very loose, and some don't even mention them at all and thus wouldn't require them. Some I have read in the past were so specific that even handcycles and other alternate forms of human input power would not be allowed by the letter of those laws. :( So...it depends.

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Re: Should a light wight bike without pedals be a ebike or e

Post by The fingers » Jun 04, 2014 9:55 pm

An ebike without pedals is a motor-driven cycle or motorbike. :wink:
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Re: Should a light wight bike without pedals be a ebike or e

Post by gogo » Jun 05, 2014 12:07 am

I've done my share of pedaling and even if I have 'operable pedals' I'd rather not use them for propelling me forward. Pedaling and pedals are definitely optional as far as I'm concerned, and their absence or presence is arbitrary to me.

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Re: Should a light wight bike without pedals be a ebike or e

Post by cal3thousand » Jun 05, 2014 11:20 am

Kids bikes that don't have pedals are are called scoot bikes. So electric bikes without pedals are e-scoots or... e-scooters
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Re: Should a light wight bike without pedals be a ebike or e

Post by Kingfish » Jun 05, 2014 2:06 pm

In Washington State, USA - you have to have pedals to be a bicycle. Electric bikes inherit all the laws affecting bicycles. No pedals + motor (regardless of electric or ICE) = motor-driven cycle or scooter.


RCW 46.04.336
Motorized foot scooter.
"Motorized foot scooter" means a device with no more than two ten-inch or smaller diameter wheels that has handlebars, is designed to be stood upon by the operator, and is powered by an internal combustion engine or electric motor that is capable of propelling the device with or without human propulsion at a speed no more than twenty miles per hour on level ground.

For purposes of this section, a motor-driven cycle, a moped, an electric-assisted bicycle, or a motorcycle is not a motorized foot scooter.
RCW 46.04.169
Electric-assisted bicycle.
"Electric-assisted bicycle" means a bicycle with two or three wheels, a saddle, fully operative pedals for human propulsion, and an electric motor. The electric-assisted bicycle's electric motor must have a power output of no more than one thousand watts, be incapable of propelling the device at a speed of more than twenty miles per hour on level ground, and be incapable of further increasing the speed of the device when human power alone is used to propel the device beyond twenty miles per hour.
I believe most of us DIY'ers here are well above that speed limit. :wink:


RCW 46.04.304
Moped.
"Moped" means a motorized device designed to travel with not more than three wheels in contact with the ground and having an electric or a liquid fuel motor with a cylinder displacement not exceeding fifty cubic centimeters which produces no more than two gross brake horsepower (developed by a prime mover, as measured by a brake applied to the driving shaft) that is capable of propelling the device at not more than thirty miles per hour on level ground.
My 2WD is definitely more powerful than this. :twisted:


RCW 46.04.332
Motor-driven cycle.
"Motor-driven cycle" means every motorcycle, including every motor scooter, with a motor that produces not to exceed five brake horsepower (developed by a prime mover, as measured by a brake applied to the driving shaft). A motor-driven cycle does not include a moped, a power wheelchair, a motorized foot scooter, or an electric personal assistive mobility device.
Technically, my 2WD is a motor-driven cycle with pedals because I have about 4 hp total.


RCW 46.04.1695
Electric personal assistive mobility device (EPAMD).
"Electric personal assistive mobility device" (EPAMD) means a self-balancing device with two wheels not in tandem, designed to transport only one person by an electric propulsion system with an average power of seven hundred fifty watts (one horsepower) having a maximum speed on a paved level surface, when powered solely by such a propulsion system while ridden by an operator weighing one hundred seventy pounds, of less than twenty miles per hour.
Think "Segway".


RCW 46.61.710
Mopeds, EPAMDs, electric-assisted bicycles, motorized foot scooters — General requirements and operation.

RCW 46.61.160
Restrictions on limited-access highway — Use by bicyclists.

RCW 46.61.720
Mopeds — Safety standards.

Too long to quote, though it clearly outlines the limitations of these classes.

Finally... Wikipedia Electric bicycle laws
Wikipedia wrote:The U.S. Consumer Product Safety Act states that electric bicycles and tricycles meeting the definition of low-speed electric bicycles will be considered consumer products to be regulated by the Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC)
They're quoting US Code...
US Code wrote:Low-Speed Electric Bicycles
Pub. L. 107–319, §2, Dec. 4, 2002, 116 Stat. 2776, provided that: “For purposes of motor vehicle safety standards issued and enforced pursuant to chapter 301 of title 49, United States Code, a low-speed electric bicycle (as defined in section 38(b) of the Consumer Product Safety Act [15 U.S.C. 2085(b)]) shall not be considered a motor vehicle as defined by section 30102(6) of title 49, United States Code.”
Consumer Product Safety Act wrote:Low-Speed Electric Bicycles Sec. 38 [15 U.S.C. § 2085].
(a) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, low-speed electric bicycles are consumer products within the meaning of section 3(a)(1) [15 U.S.C. § 2052 (a)(1)] and shall be subject to the Commission regulations published at section 1500.18(a)(12) and part 1512 of title 16, Code of Federal Regulations.

(b) For the purpose of this section, the term "low-speed electric bicycle" means a two- or three-wheeled vehicle with fully operable pedals and an electric motor of less than 750 watts (1 h.p.), whose maximum speed on a paved level surface, when powered solely by such a motor while ridden by an operator who weighs 170 pounds, is less than 20 mph.

(c) To further protect the safety of consumers who ride low-speed electric bicycles, the Commission may promulgate new or amended requirements applicable to such vehicles as necessary and appropriate.

(d) This section shall supersede any State law or requirement with respect to low-speed electric bicycles to the extent that such State law or requirement is more stringent than the Federal law or requirements referred to in subsection (a).
To conclude: If it's got pedals, it's a bicycle. Without them, you're something else that likely requires a lot more regulation.

Sorry... I'm just into studying law, and these laws here do allow for quite a bit of liberty.
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Re: Should a light wight bike without pedals be a ebike or e

Post by Drunkskunk » Jun 07, 2014 11:29 am

"Bicycle: ˈbʌɪsɪk(ə)l : A vehicle consisting of two wheels held in a frame one behind the other, propelled by pedals and steered with handlebars attached to the front wheel."

Now plenty of us ride things we call a bicycle that just aren't, and that's fine. Individually we can call them anything we want. 10kw and no pedals would probably be an electric motorcycle, but if someone built it and decides it's a bicycle, then as far as I'm concerned, its a bicycle.

However, if a company decides to release a 2 wheeled electric vehicle with no pedals and no other semblance of a traditional "bicycle", then it's not a bicycle.

Why does it matter? Because we need to preserve the integrity of the name "ebike" as a label for an electrically powered bicycle. If we let that moniker escape us, it will be used to label just about anything, and then the lawyers will get involved. soon we will lose our rights to use our ebikes as a bicycle. we'll end up with registration, inspections, insurance, and restrictions that keep us on the road, only the road, and only roads where we can travel at the posted speeds. Ebikes will grow in size , weight, and complexity as they have to conform to more safety regulations. the Ebikes we know today will be gone, swallowed by state and national regulation.

As it stands right now, this thing is considered a bicycle because people did not demand we hold a tighter standard on what bicycles are. and because of this thing, we already have problems with ebike laws in some places.

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Re: Should a light wight bike without pedals be a ebike or e

Post by gogo » Jun 07, 2014 12:28 pm

'Tis true that society has a penchant for regulating others. As long as the regulation is objective and subject to objective review and updating according to changed circumstance, all is good. But if you read John Forester's go around with the CPSC, you might believe much regulation isn't objective at all, but instead is promulgated by those who work the system in their favor.

Amsterdam seems to have decided that mopeds, as a vehicle class, should no longer be allowed on 'bike' paths within the city.
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As far as the scooter-looking devices are concerned, I'd rather not give into the knee-jerk short-range uncritical thinkers. If its size or weight that are the problems, then codify that into law objectively. An example of objectively written law is that bicycles, as a class of devices, aren't prohibited from the interstate highway system in Iowa. What Iowa prohibits is any conveyance that cannot "attain and maintain 40 MPH".`

On the other had, I will concede that I'm surrounded by dangerously unthinking idiots that can't be addressed intellectually and seem only to respond to manipulation.
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Re: Should a light wight bike without pedals be a ebike or e

Post by Chalo » Jun 07, 2014 2:38 pm

If it were my call, only pedelecs would be able to enjoy bicycle access privileges. As it is you have folks riding around on non-DOT mopeds or motorcycles with pedals, not upholding the administrative responsibilities of motorcyclists (which isn't fair to real motorcyclists), and helping themselves to bike/ped only infrastructure (which isn't fair to cyclists and peds).

I don't think it should be a bicycle unless the juice only comes on when you're pedaling. If you can't or won't pedal, just use an electric wheelchair-- they have almost universal rights of access.
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Re: Should a light wight bike without pedals be a ebike or e

Post by gogo » Jun 07, 2014 3:37 pm

Chalo wrote:If it were my call, only pedelecs would be able to enjoy bicycle access privileges. As it is you have folks riding around on non-DOT mopeds or motorcycles with pedals, not upholding the administrative responsibilities of motorcyclists (which isn't fair to real motorcyclists), and helping themselves to bike/ped only infrastructure (which isn't fair to cyclists and peds).

I don't think it should be a bicycle unless the juice only comes on when you're pedaling. If you can't or won't pedal, just use an electric wheelchair-- they have almost universal rights of access.
It really is a moot point once the ADA is invoked, since multi-use and bicycle-only paths aren't roadways you can claim disability and use whatever you want on them subject to restriction limited to objective criteria that has to be articulated by the governing entity. Pedaling is detrimental to the hair on my knees.
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Re: Should a light wight bike without pedals be a ebike or e

Post by Kingfish » Jun 07, 2014 3:54 pm

gogo wrote:Pedaling is detrimental to the hair on my knees.
Shorts not an option? :wink:

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Re: Should a light wight bike without pedals be a ebike or e

Post by amberwolf » Jun 07, 2014 4:25 pm

Wouldn't want the lashing winds at full speed to burn it off, you know. ;)

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Re: Should a light wight bike without pedals be a ebike or e

Post by r3volved » Jun 07, 2014 6:17 pm

There needs to be an e-moto category. Even if that means underpowered electric scooter without peddles.
The only reason these peddle scooters are so abundant is to conform to bicycle definitions. There is absolutely no need to have peddles on the majority of these scooters for any other reason than to use bicycle paths.

I would love an ebike category that allowed pegs and top speed up to 50kph and anything over that is a total motorcycle. I would personally limit the 'e-moto' to the street and declassify it as an 'ebike' on paths.

Society likes to make up new categorization and redefine things...but at the same time we like to hold onto pre existing definitions as if they're set in stone. The former equates to progress and the latter to stagnation.

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Re: Should a light wight bike without pedals be a ebike or e

Post by Chalo » Jun 10, 2014 2:01 pm

r3volved wrote:I would love an ebike category that allowed pegs and top speed up to 50kph and anything over that is a total motorcycle. I would personally limit the 'e-moto' to the street and declassify it as an 'ebike' on paths.
This makes sense to me, especially if it comes along with benefits to the e-motorcyclist like low cost registration, or no insurance requirement. We should be encouraging people to use quiet, clean, safe, efficient forms of transportation, so there should be something in it for them.
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Re: Should a light wight bike without pedals be a ebike or e

Post by cal3thousand » Jun 10, 2014 2:14 pm

Chalo wrote:If it were my call, only pedelecs would be able to enjoy bicycle access privileges. As it is you have folks riding around on non-DOT mopeds or motorcycles with pedals, not upholding the administrative responsibilities of motorcyclists (which isn't fair to real motorcyclists), and helping themselves to bike/ped only infrastructure (which isn't fair to cyclists and peds).

I don't think it should be a bicycle unless the juice only comes on when you're pedaling. If you can't or won't pedal, just use an electric wheelchair-- they have almost universal rights of access.

You're arguing for the fact that these 2 types of conveyance (peds and motos) have been established and have infrastructure and legislation created with them in mind.

Ebikes don't fall into either category directly and shouldn't be penalized for that. Innovation will never occur at that rate.

"Not being fair to motorcyclists?" Are you really kidding? You think me going 30-35 mph on my bike (that is well designed for that speed, so let's not diverge down that path again) is unfair to motorcyclists? And why is that? Because we are approaching motorcycle speeds without the motorcycle requirements?

If that's the case, I can see argument for logical ebike-specific legislation, but please don't kid anyone with the unfair to motorcyclists crap
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Re: Should a light wight bike without pedals be a ebike or e

Post by Chalo » Jun 10, 2014 6:21 pm

My point is that if you have a moped, you should follow the same rules and pay the same fees as any moped rider. To suggest that your vehicle should be exempt because it's "different" is entirely self-serving. Based on its performance, it does fall into an existing category and should be treated as such.

If you think fast e-bikes deserve their own special category, I can get behind that. But as it is, pretty much any e-bike is already covered under one category or another and should be held to applicable standards just as much as any other vehicle.
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Re: Should a light wight bike without pedals be a ebike or e

Post by John in CR » Aug 01, 2014 12:44 pm

The first bicycles didn't have pedals. Ebikes are electric 2 wheelers regardless of legal classification for the same reason someone with motorcycle calls it a bike without harassment from pedalists. The legal definition depends on your local. My high powered and extremely high powered ebikes can't be pedalled, but they enjoy exactly the same legal classification where I live as any pedal bike, with one exception. That is, I'm permitted on the highway because I can meet the minimum speed requirement. My ebikes are for transportation and due to a lack of cycling infrastructure I wouldn't ride if I couldn't keep pace with traffic, because I view it as way too dangerous on the shoulderless 2 lane roads that are the norm here.

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