Mindset of Mainstream America

I heard a talk show host say something that I think reflects the mindset of the majority of Americans. This show was not one of the right wing types that you might catch me listening to from time to time. This show was targeted at the 25-32YO market of younger "free thinking" hip dinks and new yuppies. It's kind of morning show type format with an entrouge of both males and females huddled around mic's basically being irreverent. The host's comment was " Ya know if you see an adult on a bicycle, the guys is has a DWI unless of course he is wearing $300 dollars worth of racing clothes and is on a $3000 racing bike. I believe the guy was just reflecting the belief system of the masses. In this area, I do tend to agree with him too. The only OTHER adults I see on bikes are damm near homeless. Wonder what they all think of me??

Somebody on here commented that popular people(actors-sports types) need to start riding around on Ebikes and bikes in regular clothes and make it cool again.

I was at a clients today and she told me her car was stolen and she had to buy another one. I suggested that she might consider a Prius. She lit up and said, "Oh that's the one that all the celeb's drive now. Aren't they around $60,000"

So sad, but oh so true!


joe

The very first person to approach me and ask about my bike was a self-described "drunk" who lost their license. They were interested in alternative, legal transportation.

Soapbox:

The US is a car-crazy country; clinically paranoid and obsessed with convenience. Result: poor investment in public-transportation, increased sprawl and resource consumption beyond all reason.

Ebikes will probably never achieve the prestige needed for mass consumption in the US; unless priced & branded like Timberland and Nike and targeted at the youth segment.

Hybrids and Plug-ins may get significant market-share, but not until they offer the economy of the Prius combined with the utility of a Ford Explorer and styling of the PT Cruiser. Even then, the oil-barons will mess with the market by keeping gas prices cheap enough to keep Americans addicted to fossil fuel.

/Soapbox

One comment I've heard several times after mentioning that I put an electric motor on my bike is "Well, doesn't that defeat the whole purpose?"

It has just never occurred to many people that a bicycle can be used for transportation, aside from young kids riding to grade school.

Walmart classifies a bicycle as a "toy" and they place them in the toy section of the store.

It's true though, people that ride bikes are either "really into it" like the people who post here or they are trying to get around after a DUI.

This is why "we" (the intellectual bicycle elite... geez that sounds pretentious doesn't it?) need to create "excitement" in an electric bike. Make them look like a hot, hot, hot mini motorcyle road racer with fairings and bright paint and everyone will go "wow" and yank out their wallets to buy one. As long as the electric motor bike is "tame" or "dull" or even "childish" in peoples minds they won't want it.

Of course this is coming from a guy that went to an Oktoberfest a few years ago and has become "obsessed" with the entire 150 year history of polka music. (going all the way back to Bohemia/Austria/Hungary in the 1850's) So my "tastes" lean towards the "weird" anyway... (of course if the polka beat comes back, the 4-2 rhythm, I'll claim to be psychic :wink: )

Polka: (based on four chamber heartbeat)

1 - 2 - 3 - 4... 1 - 2 - 3 - 4... 1 - 2 - 3 - 4... 1 - 2 - 3 - 4...

Rock and Roll: (based on sex act.. usually 0.8 second cycles)

1 - 2... 1 - 2... 1 - 2... 1 - 2...

Around here it's "use an accordian, go to jail"
You are dead on about bikes needing to look cool before we can expect widespead popularity. I kinda chalk it up to testosterone. I just isn't macho to be seen riding a dorky looking bike.

fechter said:

Around here it's "use an accordian, go to jail"

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Before moving to Missouri five years ago I was a third generation Bay Area resident. (grew up in Oakland until 10, then Orinda/Contra Costa 30 years after that with a few years in SF as well) So I know all about the extreme "anti-historical" sediments that exist in the Bay Area and beyond. If it has anything to do with European culture then people in the Bay Area reject it. It has to be "Made in America" or they don't want it. (or should I say "remade in America"?)

The result though is that all the stuff we call our "culture" is quickly produced crap. Our music is dominated by children that often don't have any idea about the "technology" or "craft" of music design. We end up with the simpliest beat that can be produced (the rock and roll beat is the old 1-2, 1-2...) because most people are incapable of handing anything more and the musicians are so lousy they can't coordinate without a clear simple beat.

America is becoming a land of "retarded" people... (retarded in the sense that they never "progress" to more sophistication or creativity)

So the "battles" we have with the ebikes have a lot to do with the cultural failings of America itself. (people are obsessed with clueless fashions)

"American Idol" is really "American Idiot".

(It's even worse in L.A. than Northern California and no better in the Midwest)



If you live in SF you should go to Schroeder's on Friday, February 16 and check out "Big Lou" pictured above. The creativity you will discover will awaken you to the potential of music. (you'll have a good time too!)

Some folks like motorcycles or jogging, I don't care for either. Bikes just aren't for everyone regardless of what we may feel. An issue in my area is they're just plain unsafe among regular automobile traffic. We just haven't had the aggressiveness of other communities in accommodating bicycle transportation with road construction/repair and we all know you cant depend on the automobile operators to be aware. When I was in San Diego last summer, I was stunned at the extensive network of bicycle lanes compared to my area.

Encouraging bicycle use has many facets. As each seed of interest is planted, it can spread (albeit slowly) among family, friends, and so on. Some will embrace it, many will not. Maybe we are early pioneers for something that will be much bigger. Then again, maybe we're just dorks. I'm okay with either.

It's true though, people that ride bikes are either "really into it" like the people who post here or they are trying to get around after a DUI.

This is why "we" ... need to create "excitement" in an electric bike.

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Or we just wait for a critical mass to get DUI's before sending out flyers to AA meetings

In my view describing ourselves as the intellectual bicycle elite is not
pretentious, 'cause we're just that good.

The people who make fun of us for using EV's "Well, doesn't that defeat
the whole purpose?" are just hatin' cause we ain't teaching 'em how to be
31337, but they can eat our collective ass, kthxbai.

Riding bikes in traffic is a skill that must be learned, but most people never
bother to do so and conclude that bikes are unsafe for various reasons.
One thing is that there's a lot of things that affect safety on a bike that
seem completely counter-intuitive to someone who comes from a
motorcar / motorcycle viewpoint. For example, bike lanes may sound like
a good idea, but as far as safety is concerned they are worse then
nothing. If you ride a bike and never yet got yerself some actual learning
about how to use it in traffic, I would stongly suggest you did so. To put
things in perspective, could you imagine if only a very small minory of
auto users had ever taken driving lessons?

As far as dorkiness and stuff, well a POS bike with my little pony stickers
all over it says: "I do not need to make up for a lack of virility through
external artifices such as my bike." Hence people riding around on 1/2
finished bikes that just plain work. For the masses however, I think Safe's
right to think it would take take MTV style sexXx appeal like naked women
with beer, pizza and commerical music that says "A person seen in
proximity of this item is cool and popular."

Mathurin said:

For the masses however, I think Safe
is right that it would take take MTV style sexXx appeal like naked women
with beer, pizza and commerical music that says "A person seen in
proximity of this item is cool and popular."

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Few people are really in tune with themselves anyway, they are more interested in external approval. Add to it that more and more people are lying these days (as a habit... "what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas") the result is that as people lie to others they also lie to themselves and they lose touch with who they are. Throw in tv that twists and distorts the heck out of our sense of identity and you end up with basically a bunch of "cows" that are so confused that they can only follow the herd.

So "we" the people who are "living spirits" in a "dead world" have to do what we can to wake people up whenever we can. (and that might actually mean we need to teach people to calm down and relax and be better to themselves) Will a new form of cleaner transportation really change the world? Materially yes, but the deeper issue is really more serious about our many lost souls. Things aren't good in that area.

To be here means you still have at least some life left in you... :wink:

Mathurin said:

Riding bikes in traffic is a skill that must be learned, but most people never
bother to do so and conclude that bikes are unsafe for various reasons.
One thing is that there's a lot of things that affect safety on a bike that
seem completely counter-intuitive to someone who comes from a
motorcar / motorcycle viewpoint. For example, bike lanes may sound like
a good idea, but as far as safety is concerned they are worse then
nothing. If you ride a bike and never yet got yerself some actual learning
about how to use it in traffic, I would stongly suggest you did so. To put
things in perspective, could you imagine if only a very small minory of
auto users had ever taken driving lessons?

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So its the cyclist's fault... go figure.

Well, cars are involved in only 10% of bike-related injuries...

By the stats I could find, looks like an 18:1 difference in crashes per mile
for average adult cyclists vs. vehicular cyclists.


Bike lanes teach newbies to do irrational things like riding in door zones
and/or positioning themselves to the right of a right turning lane at
intersections and/or make them get used to riding way too far to the right
even when there's no traffic, (cars look for traffic in traffic lanes, not curbs
or sidewalks) ect...


Bike advocacy site, good links:
http://probicycle.com/

Basics of vehicular cycling:
http://www.bikexprt.com/streetsmarts/usa/index.htm

Lots of technical stuff, not much hands-on:
http://www.johnforester.com


I'd like to see this taught to school children,
bet mentalities could change all the way within 1-3 generations.

So safe what you are saying is that children should be forced to be at risk in traffic because they don't deserve it. Only adults deserve to be safe.

Hearing things about safety makes me realize how lucky I am. My ride to work is 80% on a dedicated bike path (completely separated from cars).

"Cool" and riding a bike (e-bike or not) don't go together to a lot of people. It didn't to me, until I did not want to be cool anymore (after college). Now I feel great to be one out of 7 people in a 1500 who rides their bike to work.

The bikes are changing though, and celebrities are riding them - http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?page=news&newsid=14078

Thats a nice bike! (mine will be nicer :wink: )

Well, I'll re-hash here: I argue that coolness is something that must be earned one way or another, it's just that some people feel the need to use material possessions to make up for lacks elsewhere in their lives. It's true, isn't it?



Then there's the general perception that bikes are a lower social caste thing, and adding an electric part somehow lowers the coolness factor. The consequence is that only inherently uber-cool, open minded people can feel comfortable riding ebikes.


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Regarding the faster = safer argument that's been brought up: regardless what stats you look at, the hit from behind accident is consistently extremely rare, when it does happen it's usually at night to a cyclist who doesn't have the most basic safety equipment after brakes (lights). Stats show that accidents happen most often at intersections, either in front or from the side. My experience confirms this.

Over the past few years I've had a few close calls, but not one of them involved being hit from behind. Most of them had to do with intersections, in some cases it was because I was riding too close to the curb or on parallel bike paths (cars look for traffic in traffic lanes, not next to them) But, mostly they had to do with cars pulling out in front of me or cutting me off after having under-evaluated my speed, and with a non assisted bike, mind you.

To be fair, I do ride a good bit faster then the vast majority of cyclists I cross and pretty much always race anyone going close to my speed, most of those reply in same. I can imagine cars would expect scooters / motorcycles to be going at same speed as other traffic and treat them accordingly, but mostly they appear to expect bikes to be going at average bike speeds.



Washington State Bicycle Collision Data for 1994 to 1996:
http://www.bicyclesource.com/images/washington-study.pdf

Ken Kifer's got a good writeup on bike safety, with lots of stats:
(It's also a good cycling resource page, pity he got pwned.)
http://www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/health/risks.htm

safe wrote:

If the bike can stay up with traffic the car stays behind. That's why I'd argue that to really make the electric motor bike safe and practical it NEEDS to be able to go at the speeds that the roads are posted

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mathurin wrote:

Over the past few years I've had a few close calls, but not one of them involved being hit from behind. Most of them had to do with intersections, in some cases it was because I was riding too close to the curb or on parallel bike paths (cars look for traffic in traffic lanes, not next to them) But, mostly they had to do with cars pulling out in front of me or cutting me off after having under-evaluated my speed, and with a non assisted bike, mind you.

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I agree with you both, which is why I decided to convert a motorcycle rather than build a fast ebike. Seems to me that to get any respect on the road you need be able to keep up with traffic and have sufficient road presence. You need to look big. An experienced cyclist can overcome this to some extent by riding aggressively and claiming the road. I admire that attitude but I don't want to feel as if I'm heading off to battle every time I nip out for a loaf of bread.

Hmm...

I agree with the " Need to keep up with traffic " ebike attitude.

There are a few different ways for me to get to work.

Direct straight line = 6 km, 4 lane ( 2 each way ), posted speed limit 60 km/h, involves a merge-type-traffic-circle.. cars maintain 40 to 50 km/h in this circle... staying on the right side of the lane is a dangerous place as Car drivers are too busy looking for other cars to nice a cyclist on their right side.... THIS is why i have a 2 speed motor ( 406/409 ) at 72v. I flip the switch.. Pin the throttle and tuck while standing on the pedals with finger on the brake levers at the ready... It's a 30 second adventure and adrenalin rush.. Picture 55 km/h leaning hard 10 ft away from the bumper of the car in front.. and a car riding your ass 10 ft behind..

Needless to day.. The Car drivers usually back off and give me room once they realize i'm not pedaling, and i'm not holding them up causing a traffic jam behind me in a 60 zone !!.. i do not take this route unless i'm late for work.

The other route is 8 km ( only 2 km more.. ) and i have a long sloping hill, but in 409 with a 20" wheel i fly right up that sucker at 35 km/h +.

I need to buy an alarm radio without a snooze button.. :lol:

How does the 40x motor hold up to 72v sustained? I considered going that route, but ended up with an X5 because I was concerened about overheating a 40x.

No problems at all .. i have run it at 99 v a few times.. ( wayyyyyyy too fast for a bicycle !! ) ..

Only way to burn a 4 series motor would be to subject it to 40 + amps at a stall for an extended period.. ( I suspect the controller would pop first ! )

I forgot where I saw it -- perhaps on the PA forum -- but I definitely recall somebody frying the innards of their 40x with 90 volts. If I remember correctly, they also recounted it was working fine at 72 volts.

I have seen that thread.. was a link to Power-Assist on yahoo.. quite a few years back.. a guy with an Extracycle setup i beleive.. Not 100 % sure, but i think there was the possibility of the wires being sliced into.....

Other that that one reported case.. i do not know of another such claim. If anyone knows of a motor failure.. please link !

So what makes the ~10lbs of extre weight on the X5 motor useful? I'd love to have 2000w in a 15lb hub instead of 25lb.

So what makes the ~10lbs of extre weight on the X5 motor useful? I'd love to have 2000w in a 15lb hub instead of 25lb.

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1) The x5 is more efficient over a much wider rpm range:
http://www.ebikes.ca/simulator/

2)The x5, according to Justin at ebikes.ca and others on other forums, can handle 5,000 watts continuous and 120 volts. Hard to say since people seem reluctant to fry their hubmotors in the name of science, but it appears from user reports the 40x can handle about 3,500 watts at 100 volts temporarily, and 2,500 watts continuous.

3)Makes the bike hard for thieves to pick up and put in a van

4)Comparing the 5304 to the 408 on the simulator, about 20% more torque for the same power input.