Cyclone 500 watt build with pics!

jondoh

1 kW
Joined
Jan 23, 2007
Messages
409
Location
San Jose
After about 6 hours of sleep on Sunday and Monday, i'm collecting my thoughts after a marathon build of my new cyclone bike (still not completely done).

some things i learned along the way:
1) a bottom bracket is a BITCH to get off the bike
2) a local bike shop mechanic can be a real hero-- all hail Chuck! the new king of england!
3) you shouldn't change chain lengths too much
4) I was probably better off getting the more expensive chain tool
5) I probably should get a new chain
6) I need to know what terminal goes with what connector BEFORE cutting and splicing wires
7) I can't do everything. I still need help from Chuck.

The build actually began friday evening. I picked up the new rear wheel, some clamps, a crank removal tool, a bottom bracket removal tool, a cheap chain tool and headed back home to begin. After about an hour, i figure out how to use the crank removal tool. After another hour of beating the bike and crank removal tool with a rubber mallet, i managed to get both cranks off. Try as I could, I could not get the bottom bracket screws to come out. I gave up and went to bed.

On Saturday, I dropped the bike off with Chuck who, with advantage of being a big guy with the right tools with the right bike stand and help from another mechanic, finally managed to wrestle the bottom bracket off.

I guess the bottom brackets on these newer bikes are the totally sealed cartridge style now. I had to buy new screws and bearings from Chuck who installed them for free-- long live the king! Long live Chuck!

Saturday night is when most of the work began. First the new Nexus hub rear wheel went on. Then the brackets. Then went on the free wheeling crank-- which, by the way, is a very cool thing since it lets me apply motor power without having to peddle along with the motor. I finally put on the motor.

I was up till 4am sunday morning. Most of that time was spent screwing with different chain lengths. The problem was that the chain was too loose. When I peddled, it would slip on the rear wheel. I tried shortening it but then it became too short and I couldn't fit the rear wheel back into the dropouts. It finally dawned on me that the tension could also be adjusted by moving the motor in relation to its mounting brackets. Problem is that I had to lower the motor to tighten the chain. The smaller rear wheel already lowered the bike. Lowering the motors puts it a little too close to the ground for my tastes. It seems to be ok so far but I have to be very careful not to bash the motor when lifting the bike over tall curbs.

Wiring the bike was actually the easy part. I had already made the battery cables but there was a little surprise when i tried to fire it up for the first time... nothing happened. The power led came on but that was it. Turned the throttle and nothing. It turns out that I hadn't installed the rear brake cable (so no back brakes yet). The brake lever is smart enough to sense that without brake cables installed, the brakes wont work so the motor was not allowed to start. I quickly disabled this safety feature by unplugging the brake lever connection to the controller and voila! problem solved. I turn the throttle and the motor turns-- whew!

The test ride was interesting. I wasn't able to install the cable for the shifter. The nexus hub defalts to 1st gear without any tension on the cable. So a fun time was had sunday, riding in the rain at a whopping 14.1 mph.

Monday, I dropped the bike back to Chuck who will be installing the rear brake cable and shifter... and maybe a chain tensioner so i can raise the motor a little.

So far, I like the bike. It's very light. The motor has good torque. The RPMs don't spin quite as high as you might think they should. It gets up to speed very quickly so it kind of makes you think it has a narrow torque band. I pulled a wheelie while flooring it in first gear and peddling at the same time. It's louder than the hub motor but not by much. Most pedestrians don't notice the sound when cruising. The wires are way too long and so I had to loop them around and tie them to the frame. I'm going to have to hold off on a final verdict until i test the bike some more-- especially in gears higher than 1st. I'm looking forward to nearly 30 mph on the flats and higher than 13.5 miles range at above 20 mph. This coupled with the lighter overall curb weight and I think we have a winner. The go-hub is still stealthier but the casual onlooker will have to do a double take to notice a smallish motor below the bottom bracket on this cyclone kit.
 

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Here's some video footage all combined into one file...
Enjoy!:D
 
500W will push that bike to nearly 30mph? What does the power curve of that motor look like?

Except for the low hanging motor, I like the clean look of the install. Keep us updated.
 
It's really not so much the motor as it's the fact that the motor works through the internal 7 speed nexus hub. I'm going to find out if working an electric motor through gears is all that (as Safe claims). If it's properly geared and maybe if I help a little by peddling, I'll get above 30 mph. I won't know for sure until the shifter is installed and it has to stop raining here!

One thing for sure is, this bike is light! I don't know how light but it's fairly tossable. The specs are that the motor weighs 7 lbs. The batteries are 10 lbs. So for less than 20 lbs, going around 30mph isn't shabby. Range is supposed to be around 20 miles with some peddling and around 20 mph. I'll try the route Ric and I ran last time. The goal is to at least beat 13.5 miles.
 
Great work John ! Keep it going !..

Gotta love that 3am " WTF is wrong with this POS.. :evil: .. " feeling huh ! lol.. been there.. done that !.

You never have all the tools you need.... I keep buying more.. and more.. and more... and i am still always missing the " right " tool. hehe..

I plan to get one of those cyclones in a few months.. so i'm watching with much interest.
 
Jon, Nice looking build. I really like the Nexus 7sp hub you have on your bike. Wow! 20lbs! Can't wait for our ride again. This rain does SUCK! My Phoenix kit'd bike is almost done. Just installed the drain brain last night and waiting for the rain to stop so I can take it out. But my components (Phoenix, controller, batteries weigh in at near 50lbs! Its like comparing a Cadillac to a Sportscar. Can't wait to try them both out.

Again Great build. I'll be updating my build thread with pics and video as soon as it stops raining.
Ric
 
Incredible build. It doesn't look there's another freewheel on the crank, so I'll be interested to hear your experience with having to pedal all time the motor's running. After about half an hour on the bike my butt gets sore. While motorin' down the road, standing on the pedals and stretching for a few minutes buys me another half-hour butt-recharge.
 
I think the front ring gear freewheels around the bottom bracket. That's definitely a nice way to do gears, now all we need is a multi speed hub that can handle the power that a high voltage etek could make.
 
jondoh said:
Here's some video footage all combined into one file...
Enjoy!:D

Great video. I was wondering if it was like a fixed gear and your feet had to go along with the motor. Nice to see the front sprocket can free wheel, so you can pedal hard, take a rest and cruise the rest of the way.
 
Lowell,
My Phoenix hub motor with tire is 25+lbs
the 48v13ah Nimh Pack - 22lbs.
Controller is around 2 lbs

All over the rear axle

Ric
 
You will love having gears. When a hill comes up you just downshift and the motor will hum along like it's without any stress. It's actually faster uphill than if you had a tall gear all the time and tried to "torque" your way around. Check out the "Hill Climbing Ability" article (page 12-13 I think) in the "Great Hub Motor Debate". And it shoud even give you better energy economy as well.

:arrow: The Nexus is a nice hub.

Once you've used gears you'll never go back...

(you've done all the right things in my opinion)

Note: In the video the chain is too long... you need to remove some links to get the chain tension right... that's going to fall off if you don't. (you probably realize this, but it can't hurt to remind you)
 
A professional athelete can produce short bursts of 1500 Watts (continuous for a few seconds) and they design products to handle those likely peak loads. At a "micro" power level of 500 Watts that's about one third of what you would expect to break the hub.

Also, "continuous" power and "peak" power are very different between a motor and a human with a crank. The one CAUTION would be not to COMBINE the motor at full power with pedalling at full power in first gear starting at low rpms. That's your "peak" torque and your major danger area.

:arrow: Motor alone you can safely go to 2000 Watts... because it's "continuous"... but "jerky" pedal motion tends to break stuff more easily.

Gearing is also something important to be careful about. LOW gears increase torque on the hub. My advice would be to gear first gear so that it goes about 20 mph for a top speed. Then seventh will let you go somewhere around 45 mph. Gear it too low and you do risk excessive torque and you might not even know it.

The TALLER the gear that you can run the LESS torque that the hub must handle. On my spreadsheets there is a "torque number" and I know that on my current bike that I "get away" with 200 Newton Meters on a freewheel which is a heck of a lot. On my 1200 Watt bike it will ironically pull LESS torque because it will be geared rather high.

:arrow: There's math to ease your mind if you want to "know" exactly what you are doing. (no sense in making it a mystery)
 
What about heat dissipation? On a typical 3000w installation, how much heat will the geared hub generate?
 
Lowell said:
What about heat dissipation? On a typical 3000w installation, how much heat will the geared hub generate?

Geared bikes using internal hubs are really for 1500 Watts (2 hp) and below. If you get into the four to five horsepower range then that's legally a motorcycle. My old MB5 50cc gas street bike only produced about five horsepower and I used to do 55 mph on it. (redline was 10,500 rpms) However I needed to have a license and registration to use it.

:arrow: The whole idea of the geared bike is that it is WITHIN THE LAW (2 hp or less in most states... 1 hp for all other states... and it seems that some states go even lower) for motor size.

In my case I'm considering actually selling the final "product" as an actual "product" one day through online sales or through bike shops so I need to be legal when the "home grown" guy does not have to be. I'd sell mine in a "fixed gear" manner and then let people do the hub "upgrade" on their own. (or sell it as a kit) That keeps me within the law and still allows someone to get the performance they want if they are willing to do the modifications themselves.
 
That didn't really answer my question though, which was how much heat? What are the real world % losses (mostly heat, some slight noise?) through something like the Nexus hub?
Fortunately with hub motors being the most common way of powering an e-bike, an X5 on high voltage doesn't really stand out in the crowd.
 
Check here, lowell. It's an article that compares eff of chain drives, internal hubs, etc.

In a nutshell, a derailleur or gearhub system in good condition generally stays between 90-95% eff, it gets worse as the loads transmitted are lighter, and better as they're increased. A single speed chainline alone can reach 99%.

I know from experience that a derailleur with a filthy chain will rob surprisingly more power then a single speed in similar upkeep, so overall I'd expect gearhubs to fare better then derailleur systems in real life.
 
I got the bike back from Chuck. Something is not right in the shifter. When I peddle or throttle too hard, I hear a pop from the nexus hub-- not good. Chuck seems to think it's because the spacing in the shifter is not well suited to the hub. He's going to order a shifter made for the hub. Oh well. I guess I'll ride around in 1st and 7th gears for a while.

I rode around for 30 minutes dodging rain drops along the way. Chucks store is in down town san jose so I didn't get enough space to get up to speed but from what I can tell, the gear ratios are just about perfect. Acceleration isn't quite as brisk as I would have liked but it pulls well. The human/electric motor hybrid system feel just about perfect. I need to be able to go on a long ride to really test things out but I'm pretty satisfied so far. I also need to get a new speedometer. The wireless one i was using is pretty worthless as it picks up interference from the motor and controller.

Chuck was able to install a chain tensioner and raise the motor to a comfortable height. With the smaller back wheel, the peddles can bottom out on turns-- i have to remember this.
 
jondoh said:
...I didn't get enough space to get up to speed but from what I can tell, the gear ratios are just about perfect. Acceleration isn't quite as brisk as I would have liked but it pulls well. The human/electric motor hybrid system feel just about perfect.

At 500 Watts you should have no problems at all. The efficiency of a single chain being around 95% and the hub being 95% you lose much more in a single speed from motor inefficiency than that by far.

Losses incurred by the motor being below the peak efficiency reach into the 50% category, so you're doing much better than that with the gears. (I've proven this again and again with numerous charts, but you really don't "feel it" to be true until you ride it and "know" it's true)

The hub will probably get smoother (and more efficient) as time goes on because the parts will wear a little and loosen up. Little microscopic pits in the gears will smooth themselves out and it will roll better later on.

It should be a fun and very efficient bike... :D

My first suggestion is the learn to "rev" the bike as you go through the gears. "Scream" the heck out of the motor rather than allow it to get down low and you will keep your motor temperature down. That adds power and efficiency. The low end torque is SEDUCTIVE but you pay in various ways when you give in to that temptation...
 
Lowell said:
500W will push that bike to nearly 30mph? What does the power curve of that motor look like?

Except for the low hanging motor, I like the clean look of the install. Keep us updated.

Hi

500W 30 mph? on a flat road with a tail wind :) you need about twice that to hold 30mph on the flat sadly unless you are on a lowrider or can achieve better wind resistance.

The 500W cyclone is good for about 21-22mph from what I have seen, but it is a very good hill climber, watch the motor they are very sensitive we have had 3 of them fail!

Thanks for posting the pictures and the video.

Knoxie
 
The 500W cyclone is good for about 21-22mph from what I have seen, but it is a very good hill climber, watch the motor they are very sensitive we have had 3 of them fail!

Yup. Even at an impossible 100% overall efficiency, the bike calculator confirms 500W will only get you to 25mph. No amount of gearing will change that.

http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm
 
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