12V 4.8 HP 2100 rpm winch motor options.

[latecurtis]

I own a 29" mountain bike with a heavy duty frame and am looking to get around 47 to 50 mph out of it. I also own a 26" Haro mountain bike which I would also like to get at least 40 mph out of. I have done a little research and know that winch motors have been used for e bikes before.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlt7ZYcspSg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_DX0kPPsgk

However a 12V motor would require, well 12 to 14V I guess and a controller capable of about 400 amps.

They sell 24V winch motors but they do not give horsepower or rpm ratings on the 24V motors. The 12V models are rated at 6 HP and 2100 rpm which is exactly what I am looking for. I even contacted several companies and got no information.

Ideally 24V would be better as I own several 6S LiPo packs. However without knowing the rpm I have no way of gearing it.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-WARN-WINCH-MOTOR-20-SPLINE-DOUBLE-BALL-BEARING-6HP-/131282529674?hash=item1e910c6d8a:g:SJ0AAOSwGotWsmMr&vxp=mtr

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-WINCH-MOTOR-FOR-WARN-WINCH-24V-20-SPLINE-26651-39983-21131-21258-/371187862619?hash=item566c854c5b:g:ePQAAOSwQM9UY2pg&vxp=mtr

http://kellycontroller.com/kds24200e200a12v-24v-mini-brushed-controller-p-77.html

Please let me know if anyone knows of any other controller options for one of these motors. Thanks.

LC. out.

 

[Punx0r]

Apart from a car starter motor it's hard to think of a worse choice for a motor to power a bicycle. Then again, at least the starter motor comes with a front housing/bearing plate.

Buy a BLDC hubmotor...

 

[Chalo]

Buy a BLDC hubmotor...

Flatted axle hub motors are such an inherently terrible design that I'm surprised no developed country has banned them on grounds of product safety. We've gotten used to them, the same way that early motorists got used to flame-heated surface carburetors. But they still suck.

Using a shafted motor of appropriate speed and power is a fine alternative to using a hub motor, and it avoids the risk and stupidity of transmitting all the motor's torque through the axis of the single fastener used to attach the motor to the vehicle.

To me, it looks like a typical winch motor fails to meet the "appropriate speed and power" criterion. For a 50mph MTB, an axial flux shafted motor like the Briggs & Stratton Etek or one of its derivatives would be more appropriate.

 

[Punx0r]

I quite agree that using the axle nuts to transfer torque is inadequate in all but the most low-powered applications, but any multi-HP or 50mph bike would require clamping dropouts on both sides. This is then functionally equivalent to using drive flanges attached by more conventional means, like welding or a spline. It's not unusual in vehicles to transmit drive through an axle that also secures the wheel to the vehicle.

I know hubmotors have their disadvantages and don't intend to get into a hubmotor Vs. mid-drive debate, the suggestion was offered as a simple, superior alternative to trying to use a winch motor. No reason a mid-drive couldn't also be used.

 

[Sunder]

Using a shafted motor of appropriate speed and power is a fine alternative to using a hub motor, and it avoids the risk and stupidity of transmitting all the motor's torque through the axis of the single fastener used to attach the motor to the vehicle.

To any sensible designer it would. For LC, it wouldn't surprise me if his wheels are still attached using quick release skewers.

We've tried talking him out of a Winch motor on another thread. No luck.

 

[latecurtis]

View attachment 4

5.122 * 11 = 56.342. You are looking at a 56 tooth spoke sprocket in the picture already installed.


Basically an RC motor would only make the bike about 2 pounds heavier. Five pounds maybe with the controller and chain and the wheel sprocket and less than 10 pounds with two 6S LiPo in parallel.

Also a high powered 1,500W hub motor would weigh about as much as the winch motor so this would be a weight vs power compromise.

Calculations for 90KV at 24V is how I came up with that so instead of using a winch motor for 46 mph and adding 30 pounds at least to the bike

I will get 35 mph and only add 10 pounds to the bike. It is a good trade off. Typically a 2800W motor would be geared for 40 mph or more but I was told with RC motors to go by 1/2 the rated power when gearing for an e bike so that is why I came up with that gearing. Also it is perfect for the 56 tooth spoke sprocket in the picture.

My three questions would be I don't see a motor shaft in that picture so how do I attach a 11 tooth dual D bore sprocket for #420 bicycle chain.

The second question is what are my controller options with this motor.

The third question is how would I mount this motor to my 29" frame.

The top picture on the bottom shows a 200 amp motor but the KV is high. At 1/2 the rated voltage or 24V rpm would be about 3,500 and power approx 4 kilowatts I believe but gearing would be close to 60 mph which is too high. That I guess is an example of what probably wont work. Or would it ? If so what about a sprocket ?

48V * 200 amps = 9,600 watts. 24V * 200 amps = 4,800 watts = 60 mph ??? 1545 grams = approx. 3 - 1/2 pounds

Also if anyone into non hub type motors knows of a different design RC type brush-less motor with similar KV that would work and bolt to the bike for about the same price then please let me know. It would need to be compatible with my 56 tooth spoke sprocket and be geared for at least 35 mph.

The second to the bottom picture down below. Well that my friends would be a HAIRY ride indeed and optimal gearing could be around 100 mph. 7.158 grams is obviouslly a misprint on the weight but at 7,158 it still weighs less than 16 pounds or 4 pounds less than the 6 HP winch motor.

see bottom picture below that. 5.179 * 11 = 56.969. The problem is the 29" wheel would probably look like it was in a train wreck with that much torque on the sprocketl. The spokes would snap like strands of uncooked spaghetti. I dont even have the rubber parts and also the spoke sprocket is for a 36 spoke wheel so I could only get 6 bolts to work instead of 9. Does anyone know if they make spoke sprocket kits for a 48 spoke wheel ?

Thanks

LC. out.

https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-ca80-160kv-brushless-outrunner-50-80cc-eq.html

 

[Chalo]

Oh for cripes' sake. You're using a rag joint sprocket on a bike you want to go 50mph?

If you wanted to spin a guitar at 600 RPM, would you hold onto it only by the strings? If you did that, could you guess what would happen to the strings? Extrapolate for your spokes, which are the only thing that rag joint is grabbing onto.

Please stop paying attention to the slobbering retards in stinking gas bike land. They're a bunch of dain bramaged alcoholic crackpots who lost their driver's licenses and haven't one decent clue to share among the lot of them.

 

[latecurtis]

Oh for cripes' sake. You're using a rag joint sprocket on a bike you want to go 50mph?

If you wanted to spin a guitar at 600 RPM, would you hold onto it only by the strings? If you did that, could you guess what would happen to the strings? Extrapolate for your spokes, which are the only thing that rag joint is grabbing onto.

Yes, but the good news is my friend Doug has a 29" rear wheel which has the disk brake mount.

All I will need is a #420 sprocket which will bolt up to it. I should have a picture of it soon as I have to go there to pick up a 20" wheel that has a 80T #25 sprocket bolted to a freewheel for my 20" 500W 20 mph bike project.

I have 3 e bikes already built two with hub motors and a rear chain driven 500W 24" cargo bike geared for 20 mph with a 20" rear wheel that has a 60T spoke kit on it.

My four new builds include a 20" front chain drive with a 24V 500W Unite motor already installed , A 26" Haro V3 which will get a Magic pie 5 on the back , A 26" 90s style black Diamond Back mountain bike which will probably get the 56T spoke sprocket which is on that 29" wheel in the picture and an 800W 36V Unite motor I already own and my 29" mountain bike which does not have a motor yet and is the current subject of this post. I could use a link for different size #420 sprockets which will bolt to the freewheel. thank you for posting.

LC. out.

 

[Sunder]

I second Chalo's sentiments.

There is simply so much unsafe about riding at 50mph on a mountain bike. Some risks are mitigated by properly built downhill bikes with top quality suspension brakes and tyres, but that's not you.

The only mitigating factor I can see, is the way you build, your "theoretical" 50mph is more likely to be a real 25-30mph, and with no way to measure, you can keep telling yourself (and everyone else) that.

I think you really do need to find a very long hill, get a $5 bike computer, and measure yourself going down that hill at 50mph. I have seriously done riding on an unpowered road bike down hill at 40mph. It's terrifying. I think if you got even close, you would realise that your bikes aren't designed to do that kind of speed.

 

[latecurtis]

You guys are correct. It is why I am NOT using the 56T spoke sprocket for the 29" wheel. I want to use it for my 26" Diamond Back I don't have a picture of yet but with an 800W 36V Unite motor running at 2,750 rpm it will be very over-geared. I really want to use the parts I already own before spending any money but I dont know how I can make a 2,750 rpm motor work with a 56T sprocket ? I wish I could find an answer to that.

 

[Sunder]

You guys are correct. It is why I am NOT using the 56T spoke sprocket for the 29" wheel. I want to use it for my 26" Diamond Back I don't have a picture of yet but with an 800W 36V Unite motor running at 2,750 rpm it will be very over-geared. i really want to use the parts I already own before spending any money but I dont know how I can make a 2,750 rpm motor work with a 56T sprocket ? I wish I could find an answer to that.

I'm not talking about the wheel you're using. I'm talking about going 50mph on ANY mountain bike.

 

[latecurtis]

5.128 * 11 = 56.408.

It is frustrating as I already own the 800W motor and 56T spoke kit but there is no way to make them work together.

The same thing with the 26" Diamond Back frame. I have all the parts to build it but it will be grossly over geared with no way I see to fix it.

I do however have the stock Currie 26" wheel I can put on the back of the Diamondback which is set up for a freewheel on the left side but it has to be a special freewheel. Then I have to find a sprocket to bolt up to it and a compatible motor sprocket.

I guess the 80T #25 sprocket can go back on the Currie wheel where it once was and the 56T spoke sprocket can go on a front 20" wheel for that build but I will need a #420 motor sprocket for the 500W Unite motor.

As far as the 29" bike 35 mph is normal speed with 45 mph being top speed for less than 30 seconds on very smooth roads with little traffic in ideal weather conditions.
The bike has a large heavy duty frame. It will also be fitted with disk brakes if I can find a way to install them. My friend Doug thinks it is possible.

The thing is though that I am not building that bike until I get the 20" bike and the 26" Diamond Back built as I want to use the motors I already own first.

The 26" bike will need a rack. Unfortunately the rack is on the V3 Haro which don't really need a rack as it is getting a rear hub motor but it matches the color of the bike perfectly and will work for mounting the controller. The 26" Diamond Back will need a black factory rack to match the bike and make it look good. I will also need 36V batteries for the motor as the SLAs I got are shit. I will need two 4S LiPo packs.

Basically I am looking at seven electric bikes total. Three will be hub motor powered and two are already built. four will be chain driven and one is built and I am working on the second which is the 20" front wheel chain driven bike. This post concentrates on the four chain driven bikes and my 156 page post will cover the Haro V3 with the Magic Pie 5 I will be getting hopefully by next summer. thanks.


LC. out.

 

[Punx0r]

We've tried talking him out of a Winch motor on another thread. No luck.

Yikes. I just took a look at that 156 page monstrosity...

 

[latecurtis]

4.17 * 8 = 33.36V so 33V * 50 = 1,650 rpm

I am looking at a modest size sprocket. 1,650 rpm at 33V or 8S LiPo

3.165 * 11 = 34.815 so a 34 to 36 tooth wheel sprocket which bolts to the disk brake mount should work perfect.

Since rated power for the motor = 7,000W for e bike applications 1/2 of 7 killowatts = 3,500W gearing for 45 mph seems reasonable for the motor. Please let me know what you all think.

LC. out.

 

[Sunder]

Please let me know what you all think.

Here's what I think:

1. You'll spend a lot of money
2. You'll spend a lot of time.
3. You'll encounter a lot of frustrations
4. You'll "work around" them, because you have a shit load of time. These work arounds introduce massive inefficiencies.
5. In the end, you'll get a bike that goes maybe 20mph, but because your "maths" says you should be going 50mph, you'll think it does that. You might "conceed" that you're only getting 45mph.

That's the lucky scenario. The unlucky scenario is that the bike does do what you hope. And it kills you, or takes off your leg. A 1650rpm motor on an 11t sproket, is sending 302 links past your foot EVERY SECOND. Think about what happens if it breaks - or even slips.

 

[Mündawg]

I love the enthusiasm you have and your ingenuity!

That's the lucky scenario. The unlucky scenario is that the bike does do what you hope. And it kills you, or takes off your leg. A 1650rpm motor on an 11t sproket, is sending 302 links past your foot EVERY SECOND. Think about what happens if it breaks - or even slips.

However, i must warn you that these people mean well. I am new to ebikes and have been pushing my bbshd rig since day 1 (7 days ago). 30mph on my decent/nice mtn bike with slick tires is fun, and exhilarating, and i don't blame anyone for wanting this. But hitting 40mph on the huge downhill near my house was a nightmare. At that speed the dynamics of the bike are not optimal. It is too light, the wheels too weak, the angle of attack of the front fork is too steep. I doubt you would be able to hit 50mph multiple times and survive long.

My chain also slipped off during one of my 30mph runs. A small bump in the road and "pop" it cam right off, but with the chain ring still spining fast it got snagged between the motor and the crank arm and nearly threw me off the bike. I managed to put the bike down half decently. I couldn't imagine how bad that would have been at your rpms!!

50mph is best left to vehicles designed to go 50+mph.
Thanks for Being
Mündawg

 

[DAND214]

I second Chalo's sentiments.

There is simply so much unsafe about riding at 50mph on a mountain bike. Some risks are mitigated by properly built downhill bikes with top quality suspension brakes and tyres, but that's not you.

The only mitigating factor I can see, is the way you build, your "theoretical" 50mph is more likely to be a real 25-30mph, and with no way to measure, you can keep telling yourself (and everyone else) that.

I think you really do need to find a very long hill, get a $5 bike computer, and measure yourself going down that hill at 50mph. I have seriously done riding on an unpowered road bike down hill at 40mph. It's terrifying. I think if you got even close, you would realise that your bikes aren't designed to do that kind of speed.

You have a third here.
You keep upping the price and It's still not gonna do it the way you want to do it.

So, you thought you got away. Nope I'm back to tell you, You're wasting your time and money you really don't have.

Do as DA, Sunder and me. GET A SPEEDO. You would be amazed what 50 or even 30 is on a crappy bike is like. Don't throw out those names, they mean nothing if they aren't done right.

Dan

 

[latecurtis]

That's the lucky scenario. The unlucky scenario is that the bike does do what you hope. And it kills you, or takes off your leg. A 1650rpm motor on an 11t sproket, is sending 302 links past your foot EVERY SECOND. Think about what happens if it breaks - or even slips.

I know. You guys are right.

Other people can build 50 mph bikes and faster and post them every day on you tube. 8 kilowatt bikes and even 10 kilowatt and 20 kilowatt. We even got a 28 kilowatt with delta switching.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiiNORLzA18

Other people can do it but I cant. I am just a big retard and everyone else is smarter than me. I am a complete failure and should just give up on building e bikes!

Yea. Fat chance.

peace out.

 

[Sunder]

Pretty much nailed it there... If you can't tell the difference between the bike in the video, and what you have to work with, then I 100% agree with your self assessment.

 

[latecurtis]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EzkLLKznb0

Pretty much nailed it there... If you can't tell the difference between the bike in the video, and what you have to work with,

What I have to work with is an 800W Unite motor and a 500W unite motor.

I am trying to make those work now. I am not building a 50 mph bike just yet!

I am looking for a motor and wheel sprocket for a 800W motor now and 27 mph gearing. I dont have a crazy motor YET.

I am simply stating that I will not give up on it. The Haro V3 will get a Magic Pie 5 and also disk brakes. Front and rear.

The 29" mountain bike will probably get an e tech motor rated at 10 HP or an alien power motor. A crazy and dangerous motor yes!!

However it is not happening currently. As of now I am looking for large 420 or 8mm sprocket for my 26" Diamond back build. I can either use the stock Currie wheel or a spoke sprocket however my 56 tooth is too small. An 85 or 86 tooth that screws on where the freewheel goes would do the trick 26 to 28 mph gearing.

please help me with a link if possible. Thanks.

LC. out.

 

[recumpence]

That's the lucky scenario. The unlucky scenario is that the bike does do what you hope. And it kills you, or takes off your leg. A 1650rpm motor on an 11t sproket, is sending 302 links past your foot EVERY SECOND. Think about what happens if it breaks - or even slips.

I know. You guys are right.

Other people can build 50 mph bikes and faster and post them every day on you tube. 8 kilowatt bikes and even 10 kilowatt and 20 kilowatt. We even got a 28 kilowatt with delta switching.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiiNORLzA18

Other people can do it but I cant. I am just a big retard and everyone else is smarter than me. I am a complete failure and should just give up on building e bikes!

Yea. Fat chance.

peace out.

That's my bike in that video.

Allow me to shed a bit of light on this;

The fastest I have gone on one of my bikes is 72mph. Most of the high power bikes I have built run around 45mph. That is gearing restricted to give strong acceleration rather than high top speed. With cheap department store bikes, I would never want to go more than 25 miles per hour. A decent bike made by a solid manufacturer is probably good for around 35 miles per hour. Anything faster than that requires motorcycle components or extremely expensive super high-end downhill mountain bike racing parts like brakes Wheels chassis Forks etc. I've gotten to the point where I build my own frames and I have custom rims made to my spec that I lace myself. I only use the highest quality brakes I can buy and the highest quality forks and other suspension components available. Most people on this forum have a lot of experience and really have a good heart. So, excuse them if they seem rude.

There are several concerns I have with your build. One concern is the speed. Another concern is the amount of power you would be putting through the frame to achieve that speed. The other concern I have is over expectation of how much performance you can achieve with the components that you have mentioned. My advice is start with a build that will go 25 miles per hour then add some more power and move up in gradual increments. That is the safe way to achieve what you are trying to achieve.

Matt

 

[latecurtis]

My advice is start with a build that will go 25 miles per hour Kama then add some more power and move up in gradual increments. That is the safe way to achieve what you are trying to achieve.

Thank you for that. Your bike is truly an engineering modern day marvel. I would like to see it race against two stroke dirt bikes. Awhile they are shifting their gears you would blow past them. They may win on top end if your gearing is less than 50 mph. However you should have no problem staying ahead of them from 0 to 45 which is a great victory over those gas guzzling devils.

I already own a bike that is good for 25 mph. I know some people don't think any of my bikes will go 20 mph but my Clear Creek Schwinn with the 1,000W hub motor is good for at least 25 mph. Sunder sent the motor and it is a perfect running bike. I also can honestly say my chain drives I have built, which are quite a few probably have gone on average from 18 to about 26 mph. I used a 1,000 W Unite motor but at 36V and 750W which I know without a speedo. that it was around 25 mph.

I may have never hit 30 mph yet. I will concede to that so my goal is to get my Haro V3 up to around 35 mph and my 29" mountain bike to hit 40 mph and will forget about going 50 mph on an electric bicycle because honestly, I really don't have enough money to put into an e bike to make it safe enough to go that fast. However 40 mph should be some fun.

Now lets get back to sprockets. I am interested in the 8 mm motor sprocket which electric scooters has to offer. It is a 10 tooth which gives better gear reduction than an 11 tooth sprocket for #420 chain.

I have a 26" wheel which originally came off of my first e bike which was a Currie e zip Trails. It has a pedal cassette on one side and is threaded for a freewheel on the other. There is no freewheel on it now and I am looking for an 8 mm sprocket which would screw on where the freewheel goes. I would rather not have to get a freewheel and then bolt it to the freewheel however if that is my only option I will take it.

Sprocket calculator on the bottom gives 7.738 as the gear ratio * 10 = a 77 tooth 8 mm wheel sprocket I am looking for at a reasonable price. If anyone happens to know where there is such a thing please put up a link for it. I have searched and searched but have not found anything. Obviously you guys are more experienced than me so I am thinking that you may know where I could find such a thing or have it made at a fair price like under $50. Thanks.

LC. out.

 

[Sunder]

That's my bike in that video.

Great work on that bike there. Love the nice clean build. Also admire the custom work you're doing. Not many people have the passion to take it that far.

If we seem rude to LC, you should reference his other 156 page thread that has been going on for 3 years. Most of us being rude to him have sent him several hundred bucks worth of gear and have spent hundreds of hours helping him. I'm not saying that buys us the right to be rude, but just saying that we're not dismissing him uncharitably, but we are getting frustrated after 3 years and a lot of time/money committed to him, to see him kill himself.

LC, listen to this guy. You're not going to go 50mph on a bike you're trading for a case of beer, or finding "abandoned" by the side of the road.

 

[DAND214]

That's my bike in that video.

Great work on that bike there. Love the nice clean build. Also admire the custom work you're doing. Not many people have the passion to take it that far.

If we seem rude to LC, you should reference his other 156 page thread that has been going on for 3 years. Most of us being rude to him have sent him several hundred bucks worth of gear and have spent hundreds of hours helping him. I'm not saying that buys us the right to be rude, but just saying that we're not dismissing him uncharitably, but we are getting frustrated after 3 years and a lot of time/money committed to him, to see him kill himself.

LC, listen to this guy. You're not going to go 50mph on a bike you're trading for a case of beer, or finding "abandoned" by the side of the road.

I disagree with you there Sunder. He can go that fast but doubt he would live. I don't feel lie we are rude but concerned. He is determined to do it and am rather sure he will do it or die trying. That is how stubborn people are, I know, I'm one of them. Tell me not to try it after I started, NFW would that matter.

I don't think LC will be doing much ridding this weekend, SNOW on it's way. 72+ yesterday and freezing tomorrow. Little here but they say a few+ upper NY. Hope you have your snow tires on LC.

As I said, not trying to be rude to a stubborn guy, just concerned. In either case, he does it or not, It's fun trying.

So Matt, where do you race these things? I don't live that far away.
From what I have read on your posts, you build some BAD machines!

Dan

 

[latecurtis]

View attachment 3

Basically what I am dealing with is the 26" 1997 Diamond Back outlook in the top picture. Also the parts bike directly below it. The Dimond back outlook will get the forks and handlebars plus the brakes off of the parts bike.

The two pictures below it are Doug's bikes. the Cosmo he has had since he was a kid and he is 27 years old now. He told me that he will be buried with that bike. Also the Haro Flight-line is his which he rides regularly. Doug built both bikes as well as my Haro V3. Doug claims that his Flight-line would ride smooth at 47 mph.

He also claims that the Haro V3 I have that he built is good for 40 mph however he did mention that there are other variables to consider such as tire pressure and wind velocity as well as properly tuned disk brakes but with him spending an afternoon installing disk brakes with quality brake levers that 40 mph is possible to do safely but he said he would NOT push it any faster than that and it would have to be done on smooth even roads with no potholes obviously. I agree with him there and would never go over 30 mph around here on these roads.

I am hoping that I can finish the current two builds which are both less than 30 mph before starting 35 + mph bike projects. With that said does anyone know where I can get a 77 tooth 8 mm sprocket which will screw on to the left side of the Currie rim where the freewheel goes.

Obviously I do agree with what Chalo said regarding spoke sprockets.

Oh for cripes' sake. You're using a rag joint sprocket on a bike you want to go 50 mph?

If you wanted to spin a guitar at 600 RPM, would you hold onto it only by the strings? If you did that, could you guess what would happen to the strings? Extrapolate for your spokes, which are the only thing that rag joint is grabbing onto.

It is why a screw on sprocket would be much stronger. Also a sprocket which bolts to the disk brake holes would work much better and be stronger than the spoke sprocket. A spoke sprocket though is good for 500 watts and up to 20 mph. Test proven as I am currently running one.

The Diamond back will need a 77 tooth 8 mm sprocket. Could someone please let me know. Thanks.

LC. out.