19" Motorcycle Wheels vs 26" Bicycle Wheels (rim and tires)

[FluxZoom]

A good strong bicycle rim like Origin8 DAT-PRO-65 or Alex Supra-E compares in strength to a motorcycle rim weighing maybe three times more.

Very interesting statement to be sure. I did a bunch of searching but I wasn't able to find this Alex Supra-E, but even notion that a bicycle rim might be twice as strong would be immense, three times seems like an insane degree of strength difference, brutal. What sort of data do you have that shows this? I am sure someone with an engineering backround related to these sorts of topics might know these things to be true but it would be difficult to share or say why, but I prefer information with more than anecdotal substance if/when possible. Has anyone done any direct contrast or comparison? What can one do to test a rims strength? Apply weight to an unlaced rim until it buckles and compared?

That Origin8 DAT-PRO-65 rim weighs 1044g, three times the strength of a motorcycle rim such as http://www.prowheelracing.com/yamaha-play-bike-front-rim-1-40-x-19-black/ (1088g) seems insane to consider as the weights of these rims are almost identical.

 

[markz]

I would look at it this way, if you are a speed junkie. Would you want to hit a pothole on a bicycle rim/tire or a motorcycle rim/tire.

 

[Offroader]

I'm thinking about trying out a 16" prowheel rim for a 16x3.00 tire for a MXUS build.

I've been using a 17x3.00 shinko 241 and that has worked out really nice. Why not try a 16x3.00?

It will reduce the tire outside diameter 1 inch, from 23.7" to 22.68".

Does anyone think a 22.68" outside diameter will be way too small? I am concerned if it will not roll over stuff as well in the woods.

Offroader - Did you end up going with 16" wheel? I found a 16 x 1.60 online with a tire for a reasonable price. Its funny because I can not find any used motorcycle parts stores or junkyards in Calgary, Alberta, Canada. TJ's was popular but its gone now. Found Mikes Bikes out NE of the airport with tons of selection. I went there to look but he mentioned something about the price, he wanted a couple hundred bucks for a "set" of wheels. So if I remember it came down to $100 to $150 per wheel. They were all on a rack outside, in random order. To me it seemed a high price, but looking on the online classifieds Kijiji that seems to be the going rate.

My concern is with a 16 x 1.60 rim, is will I have a good selection of reasonably priced tires. The good news is, the wheel I got my eye on has a tire on it but with a bunch of spokes gone off it and for $50, but in what condition is the tire I dont know until I head out for a day trip 1 hour east to look at it. I wanted a 17", so a 16" will give me a little bit more torque. My motor is the same, MXUS 3KW V2.

You know what, I completely forgot about this. I was going to go with a 17" 1.4, but maybe I'll try the 16" x 1.6 rim and shinko 241 16" 3" tire. I never got the MXUS motor yet, but maybe soon because they are coming out with the curved magnets.

I don't mind going small because I have adjustable suspension on my bike so it doesn't affect ride height. The only thing that worries me is will a 16" x 3.00" tire not roll over stuff very well?

Somehow I don't think you would every notice and the acceleration will be well worth it over the drawbacks of going smaller.

 

[macribs]

What about safety and speed ratings? Will a bicycle tires blown at 40+mph be more disastrous for the rider than on a motorcycle tire? What about stability at higher speeds? I like the light weight of a bicycle wheel but they just don't feel safe at speeds above 20-30 mph (well, and they are not designed to run at those speeds). Yes, bicycle rims can be built strong but availability of good tires rated for above 20mph is limited.

If you worry about safety then motorcycle tire is your new best friend. To take it up a notch you could even go tubeless and that will give yo the benefit of air leaking out very slow if you hit a nail or a screw etc. Where a tire n tube will loose air very fast in same situation a tubeless tire will hold on several minutes most of the time. And as the air pressure gets lower you will notice the ride quality changes and you can safely reduce your speed until standstill.

Unless you rip the side wall ie between sharp rocks of course.

 

[macribs]

Anyway, I guess the original question I am asking is, can a double walled bicycle rim be as strong or stronger than a single walled motorcycle rim, such as the rims I linked to.

On a strength to weight ratio basis, all halfway decent bicycle rims are stronger than motorcycle rims. The thing about motorcycle rims that you can see as an advantage or a disadvantage is that they weigh several times as much as bicycle rims.

A good strong bicycle rim like Origin8 DAT-PRO-65 or Alex Supra-E compares in strength to a motorcycle rim weighing maybe three times more.

Motorcycle tires are tougher than bicycle tires just on the basis of mass. Compared to bicycle tires that can have casing fabrics finer than 100tpi, rated pressures over 100 psi, and excellent strength to weight ratio, there are no "good" motorcycle tires. In every way you could say a motorcycle tire is better than a bicycle tire, a truck tire is better than a motorcycle tire. That doesn't mean you should use truck tires on your e-bike.

Personally I don't get the obsession with bicycle rims. OK maybe if you are building a mid drive. But most e-bikers still builds DD hub motors laced into the rear wheel. A few grams and lbs does not really make or break the deal with a DD hub. I think each builder should choose what seems appropriate for their use, needs and tire selection. If that means going for motorcycle alu rim, good. Do that.

Not to mention that the modern motorcycle rims are made of light weight high strength aluminum. Weight is almost on par with the bicycle rims you mention. Your claim of those bicycle rims being three times stronger - well I would have to see independent tests that back up your claim before I would trust it. I mean how do you even quantify that those bicycle rims are "3 times stronger"? As for strength all I know is that the abuse motocross rims take both on track, over big jumps etc is insane. And those mx rims rims hardly ever gives. Now matter the abuse.

And if you choose motorcycle rim, you have a wide selection of high quality tires to choose from. Rated to meet the powerful motors and the speed many e-bikers are custom to. Frankly if you plan to go more then 40 mph you might think twice of your tire choice. I know purists say that ebikes even powerful and fast ones does not have higher top speed then a bicycle - that might be true if you race down steep hills. But with power on tap you will find yourself in top speed or close to it way more often on an e-bike then you would your 10 speed racer.

OK if you choose motorcycle rims/tires with a BB hub your bike will not love big jumps - but would a fat and heavy DD hub laced into a bicycle rim change that? No I would say. If you got 10+ kilos of DD hub in your rear wheel your bike is not build for riding in a skate park, or BMX pumping tracks, or to do 6 feet drops onto flat land. But use your bike for riding single tracks, fire lanes, street and dirt/gravel roads and the motorcycle tire/rim combo will shine. That very little added weight will not make much different in those situations because you already got an "anchor" in the rear rim.

 

[ecycler]

The only thing that worries me is will a 16" x 3.00" tire not roll over stuff very well?
Somehow I don't think you would every notice and the acceleration will be well worth it over the drawbacks of going smaller.

17 inch is the smallest I personally will use offroad. If you have a larger front wheel it is fine for blasting through grass, gravel, over small curbs, urban commando style, etc. but if you want to ride technical terrain and rock gardens I am pretty sure you will not like a 16 so much.

MC wheels are 1-2 pounds heaver than solid DH rims, but the tires are considerably heaver than bike tires. If I am going to get a flat tire at high speeds I would match rather have a MC tire. You do pay a pretty big penalty for the weight, but on bikes that go faster than 35 mph it is worth it to me. The trade offs depend on how hard/fast you ride.

 

[Chalo]

Personally I don't get the obsession with bicycle rims. OK maybe if you are building a mid drive. But most e-bikers still builds DD hub motors laced into the rear wheel. A few grams and lbs does not really make or break the deal with a DD hub.

The last electric bike I built up that made me want to get another one for myself weighed 50 pounds ready to run. Use motorcycle rims and tires and a DD hub, and you'll be lucky to have a set of wheels weighing less than 50 pounds.

Bicycles have virtues. Those virtues go away when you apply retarded "more is better" car driver reasoning. Bicycles are all about getting more done with less: less weight, less energy, less space, less cost.

 

[macribs]

Chalo if the goal is light weight and not heavy hub I agree with you.
But as soon as those QS/cro or mxus 3K shows up we are already past the light and nimble. Then you need battery to match, easily close to 15-20 or more lbs.
For light weight mid drive, or light weight urban bike with ie small and light geared hub motor running of reasonable voltage and smaller, lighter batteries I agree.

 

[Powervelocity.com]

Here is a solution as I see it. Two bikes:
1. 120lbs, steel frame, heavy MC rims and tires, 24s 60Ah pack, 20kw peak power - I ride it when I feel completely retarded.
2. 50lbs aluminum frame, bicycle rims and tires, 48 15Ah, 2kw peak - I ride when I feel that less is more.

 

[Chalo]

Chalo if the goal is light weight and not heavy hub I agree with you.
But as soon as those QS/cro or mxus 3K shows up we are already past the light and nimble.

That's true, and it's a valid point. Even a super chunky motorcycle tire will spin up fast with a few HP behind it. But it could still greatly benefit the steering feel of a high powered e-bike to use a light front wheel that has less gyroscopic resistance to being steered, compared to a moto wheel. It's all a matter of what you're looking for, I guess.

 

[migueralliart]

I'm building an EEB frame at the moment and could justify using bicycle rims with it.

I'm going with a MXUS V3 and a72V23AH battery so the weight will be the major factor. If I didn't have the V3 or long range pack then I'd go with a DH rim and tires but for now I feel safer going with a 19in rim/MC tires.

 

[Rix]

Chalo if the goal is light weight and not heavy hub I agree with you.
But as soon as those QS/cro or mxus 3K shows up we are already past the light and nimble.

That's true, and it's a valid point. Even a super chunky motorcycle tire will spin up fast with a few HP behind it. But it could still greatly benefit the steering feel of a high powered e-bike to use a light front wheel that has less gyroscopic resistance to being steered, compared to a moto wheel. It's all a matter of what you're looking for, I guess.

Good point Macribs and Chalo. My home build is bursting 1.8kw max through a MAC10 greared hubbie running 12s 24ah battery with 35amps DC. I have a 24TMB tire on the running a Duro Razorback 24x2.60 inches on it with MR Tuffy between the tire and tube. 26MTB up front. I haven't weighed the bike, but its got to be right around 60-65# tops. MTB rims and tires are more than adequate for this ride. I follow the 3kw 30MPH rule. If I have more than 3kw on tap and go faster than 30MPH offroad, I at least need a rear MC tire to handle the abuse. But for lower powered units like my homebuild, good tough mountain bike tires are fine.

 

[markz]

Here is the the wheel I just bought today. Its 16 x 1.60 with a 3" tire on it and it has 36 holes.
I just put a magnet to the rim and its steel. The rust should have clued me into that.
I am using my MXUS 3KW V2 motor.

Cheng Shin Tire (Maxxis) 4 ply Nylon 3.00-16 43N K 6366 TW 8407

This is what I gather from the engravings on the rim: Araya Japan 1.60 x 16 14 06 -- 17 09 --

There are two note worthy rim makers in Japan, Araya and Ukai. They are note worthy because each of them has had their rims sold as original equipment on new bicycles and at one point both had their rims sold in the US as after market replacement parts. Both are well known for excellent quality and workmanship, however, at the moment, only Araya seems to have rims available in the US for after market replacements.

 

[Rix]

Here is the the wheel I just bought today. Its 16 x 1.60 with a 3" tire on it and it has 36 holes.
I just put a magnet to the rim and its steel. The rust should have clued me into that.
I am using my MXUS 3KW V2 motor.

Cheng Shin Tire (Maxxis) 4 ply Nylon 3.00-16 43N K 6366 TW 8407

This is what I gather from the engravings on the rim: Araya Japan 1.60 x 16 14 06 -- 17 09 --

There are two note worthy rim makers in Japan, Araya and Ukai. They are note worthy because each of them has had their rims sold as original equipment on new bicycles and at one point both had their rims sold in the US as after market replacement parts. Both are well known for excellent quality and workmanship, however, at the moment, only Araya seems to have rims available in the US for after market replacements.

Rough shape, I hope you got a good deal on it. In case you want to go with an aluminum 16x1.60 wide rim, Gary has then in stock for $94 USD. http://www.prowheelracing.com/yamaha-play-bike-rear-rim-1-60-x-16-black/

 

[Offroader]

Markz why did you buy that steel used rim? I would just buy one of these new aluminum prowheel 16x1.6 36 hole for $65. Order some 10 gauge custom spokes and brass nipples from Buchanan, and you have a great wheel. Throw on a shinko 241 16x3.00" tire and even better.



http://www.amazon.com/Pro-Wheel-Rear-Rim-Kit-166TTRBKR/dp/B0050J6Y8I

 

[markz]

I paid $50 Canadian dollars so in American dollars it would be 1.25:1 so $40USD, was that too much? I was going to give them $40, but it was a teenager selling it with his dad, driving his dads truck out in the farmer sticks.

I put the rim into a bin of CLR, will let sit over night. Maybe try the tinfoil trick.

Spokes are 2.87mm = 0.113"
Nipple flange is 8.6mm
Rim hole is 6.35mm

I am on the hunt now for spokes. I want to see if I can find a cheap DIY method, or find a cheap tool to cut and roll thread my own.

 

[markz]

What # would be the ERD?
I measure roughly 42.9mm from outter rim to outter rim, and around 40mm on the inside of the rim.

Araya Japan 1.60 x 16 14 06 -- 17 09 --

 

[Lurkin]

Cut with something that will shear them, not pinch or grind. Chalo recommended cable cutters, which I have obtained and will test with in the future.
Hozan tool for spoke rolling is about as cheap as it gets. My results have been hampered by proceeding with bolt cutters and filing - hopefully fixed with cable cutters technique.
Measure your spokes super carefully, BMX spokes are usually 14g and can be obtained cheaper than regular spokes. Packs of 50 spokes were less than the usual 18? packs of regular MTB spokes.
Only do this if you are patient and have plenty of time.

[EDIT] you probably want 13g or bigger gauge if you are using an MX rim. I don't think the Hozan will deal with that sizing. Your on your own there!

 

[Lurkin]

Get two junk spokes, put the nipples on them and insert them into the rim opposite each other. Place masking tape where they meet, remove and measure distance of each spoke to the same point. Add them together = ERD. Remember ERD is the distance between where the two spokes sit in the eyelets, not the circumference of the rim etc. It is generally recommended not to rely on manufacturers information.

 

[Lurkin]

I generally only buy new stuff when I bother to build a wheel because of the time invested in the process renders a defect (caused by prior users use) is not really worth it. It also usually allows to find information that can be handy in the build process which can be relied on, i.e. maximum tension.

However, again if you have time and are game, there can be savings to be had and it can be fun recycling stuff. I would have paid less, but I'm a miser! :lol:

 

[markz]

I am thinking the markings on the rim are indications of its ERD. The "14 06" I ASSume would mean 40.6mm if I drop the 1. Very close to my measurements from the inside of the rim to the opposite.

BMS Battery has 12 guage spokes at 152mm. I found a cheap guy on ebay, 14 guage 36 spokes and nipples for $10. 13 guage is $20. Dunno if he cuts or rolls his threads.

ebikes.ca spoke calculator says 1X = 75.8mm @ 57.7 degree's, 2X = 112.2mm @ 48 degree's and 3X is 152.1mm at 48.6 degree's.
Is it better to go with a shallow angle or a steep angle?



I am taking a page from Chalo
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=65670&p=987235&hilit=Chalo+spoke+guage#p987242
Thinner guage spokes are better for long term reliability. It goes against assumed logic. Ebay seller has 14, 13 and 12 guage spokes.... all very cheap. Im tempted to go 13awg with my moto rim. I am likely to use washers on my nipples on the rim and on the hub.

 

[Rix]

Get two junk spokes, put the nipples on them and insert them into the rim opposite each other. Place masking tape where they meet, remove and measure distance of each spoke to the same point. Add them together = ERD. Remember ERD is the distance between where the two spokes sit in the eyelets, not the circumference of the rim etc. It is generally recommended not to rely on manufacturers information.

Very true as manufactures will use different length spoke nipples to determine ERD. I will post a pic tomorrow showing how to determine ERD and supplement your comment.

 

[Chalo]

406 is the bead seat diameter in mm for 20" bicycle rims, or 16" moto rims. The ERD is necessarily smaller, or else you wouldn't be able to mount tires on the rim.

 

[markz]

Measured my rims ERD properly and its 397mm. Will remeasure it a few times to be absolutely sure. Then I need to sand down the rust with my rotary tool. I was thinking about using a cheap bed liner product but taping the holes on the outside of the rim. Black motor, black rim, black spokes.

 

[ridethelightning]

Chalo if the goal is light weight and not heavy hub I agree with you.
But as soon as those QS/cro or mxus 3K shows up we are already past the light and nimble.

That's true, and it's a valid point. Even a super chunky motorcycle tire will spin up fast with a few HP behind it. But it could still greatly benefit the steering feel of a high powered e-bike to use a light front wheel that has less gyroscopic resistance to being steered, compared to a moto wheel. It's all a matter of what you're looking for, I guess.

Good point Macribs and Chalo. My home build is bursting 1.8kw max through a MAC10 greared hubbie running 12s 24ah battery with 35amps DC. I have a 24TMB tire on the running a Duro Razorback 24x2.60 inches on it with MR Tuffy between the tire and tube. 26MTB up front. I haven't weighed the bike, but its got to be right around 60-65# tops. MTB rims and tires are more than adequate for this ride. I follow the 3kw 30MPH rule. If I have more than 3kw on tap and go faster than 30MPH offroad, I at least need a rear MC tire to handle the abuse. But for lower powered units like my homebuild, good tough mountain bike tires are fine.

reminds me of my GTdh idrive build...