A123 Systems: 'No assurance' it can continue to operate

[arkmundi]

If they are the worlds best battery tech team, why has the product development/improvement crawled at a snails pace until it's behind LG and NEC and EIG and Kokam etc? Why does it cost them over $1/Wh to make cells they then sell for half the costs of making them?

Good questions. New tech, new company. As the article stated, A123 was a great MIT based tech team, with NO manufacturing experience. They then went out an built a factory, made mistakes and paid big time. Sorry, but I'll continue to bank on the MIT nanotech lab folks - they're the ones who invented this tech and hold all the patents. So yea, other teams are trying to compete - the ones you mention - plus Panasonic, Samsung and others. Battery tech is maturing. There will be epic failures, mergers, corporate espinage, outright stealing, etc. I'm mere spectator and enjoying the show.

 

[e-beach]

If they are the worlds best battery tech team, why has the product development/improvement crawled at a snails pace until it's behind LG and NEC and EIG and Kokam etc? Why does it cost them over $1/Wh to make cells they then sell for half the costs of making them?

Because their is a huge difference between the laid back world of academia and fast paced changes in the mulch-national market place. Obviously a lot of poor business decisions were made. As you noted earlier sticking to one chemistry probably wasn't the best idea. Diversification would have been better.

 

[liveforphysics]

Sorry, but I'll continue to bank on the MIT nanotech lab folks - they're the ones who invented this tech and hold all the patents.

My $0.02 that doesn't reflect the views of anything more than my own mind wandering rambles.

They didn't make olivine structure cathodes, that was John Goodenough (an excellent battery chemist). They just doped it sufficiently to give it the material decent conductivity so it wasn't limited to ~1C discharge applications only. This was very cool to make LiFePO4 cathode material conductive. Then they threw fortunes to lawyers in a ~5 year legal battle with 3 different groups (maybe 4?) only to conclude it having made many lawyers richer, and conductivity doped LiFePO4 batteries being done other ways and in production from various companies all over the world.

They were shoe-in to do the GM batteries, but the product couldn't meet the safety needs (LG's NMC cells were evaluated to be a safer product). Then they were signed up with Daimler, then Daimler drops them. Now they are still clinging to LiFePO4, when the world has moved on to higher energy density, higher safety, lower cost alternatives. The theoretical maximum limits of LiFePO4 are never going to let it be a player in modern EVs (maybe find a place in grid stabilization where weight/size doesn't matter?).

I agree the team has some great guys on it. Everyday I kept hoping I would see a press release that says, A123 NMC (or other types) cells revolutionize EV's, but they blew so much in lawyers over LiFePO4 related stuff I think they feel like they are strapped onto that sinking ship. It would be awesome if they could transition to a grid stabilizing niche or UPS applications or something, and find a way to make the cells for less than they sell them for, and they could have a hope for a future, because the product does have some merit for certain uses if it could be made for a lower cost.

 

[cal3thousand]

it looks like it will be tough going for battery tech.

Who wants to be the one to pioneer technology, pay for the R&D, and initial legal battles,only to have some other company come in and buy it at cents on the dollar?

 

[arkmundi]

My $0.02 that doesn't reflect the views of anything more than my own mind wandering rambles....

Yea, I'll give you $0.02, seeing how all of A123 is up for grabs at "cents on the dollar." The greatest advancement in battery tech in the past several decades and I'm sure they'll be a whole crowd walking all over it as if it were mere dirt. MIT invented nanotechnology. They built a research laboratory. They then ask themselves "can we improve the battery?" And then they did. And get honest-to-the-American-God patents, you know the thing that says you did something unique and deserve some intellectual rights. Then they bring it to the market. But I'm sure the folks here at ES know better, that none of that was anything at all. Haahaahhaaa... :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[e-beach]

It's early but they are still trying to pay their people.

A123 Systems Receives Court Approval of "First Day" Motions to Support Business
Obtains Interim Approval to Access $15.5 Million of DIP Financing from Johnson Controls, Company Authorized to Continue Payment of Employee Wages, Salaries and Benefits,
By A123 Systems, Inc.
Published: Friday, Oct. 19, 2012 - 6:22 am

Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/2012/10/19/4923891/a123-systems-receives-court-approval.html

 

[liveforphysics]

The greatest advancement in battery tech in the past several decades and I'm sure they'll be a whole crowd walking all over it as if it were mere dirt.

If it's the greatest advancement in several decades, tell me what it did?

Dewalt cordless tools had an awesome 36v line for a while, but it was so cost-prohibitive that it failed.

Fiskar released some quantity of pretty awesome >$100k cars, then had A123 cells fail in them forcing an epicly expensive recall and making bad media for all EV's.

Shanghi electric vehicle company bought more A123 cells than anyone short of dewalt, and AFAIK they scrapped the project and moved to other cells. (which is generally our source or related to our source for them on the grey-market AFAIK, and keep in mind this is largely just my $0.02)

They don't sell to the DIY community, but they do/did make neat on-paper press releases talking about massive scale projects with most of the American and German auto mfgs, but aside from mixed results with the Fiskar, I don't think a single other production car has ever used them? (If I'm mistaken here please correct me, I'm just going from memory)

Feel free to add to this list of A123 accomplishments if you think of something else.

1. They enabled good performing DeWalt power tools that ultimately failed from costs.
2. They went into the $$$ Fiskar Karma, caused epic battery recall, but car is cool.
3. They made more press releases about huge agreements with Tier 1 OEM's than any other battery company, maybe all other battery companies combined, but nothing came from any of it?
4. They made some prototype 2MWh grid stabizer equipment (which I cool, and I think is their best shot a the future if they stay tied to LiFePO4.
5. They sponsored a couple neat projects that went pretty well, Killacycle, a colleges electric land speed record car come to mind, there are likely more.


Does this warrant calling them the greatest advancement in battery tech for decades? Depends on what you value I suppose.

 

[etriker]

They really do sell to the DIY community.

http://www.buya123batteries.com/articles.asp?ID=252

Stuff like this could sell.

I would like to see them in a 12v 10ah setup though kinda like these.

http://www.amazon.com/K2-K2B12V10EB-Lithium-Phosphate-Battery/dp/B0056BWK8I

 

[liveforphysics]

They really do sell to the DIY community.

http://www.buya123batteries.com/articles.asp?ID=252

Stuff like this could sell.

I would like to see them in a 12v 10ah setup though kinda like these.

http://www.amazon.com/K2-K2B12V10EB-Lithium-Phosphate-Battery/dp/B0056BWK8I

They are offering a 2p4 (8 cells total) of the 26650 2.3Ah cells for $136? You get 10 cells in a dewalt battery for $99.

Either way though, do you think $2.24/Wh is very helpful to DIY'ers? I'm glad to see they are selling something to the public though, that's a great step in the right direction and I wish them the best of luck.

 

[jimw1960]

They really do sell to the DIY community.

http://www.buya123batteries.com/articles.asp?ID=252

Those batteries that you linked to are only good for 30-amp continuous discharge. I could get a Ping battery to do that for a lot less.

 

[etriker]

They really do sell to the DIY community.

http://www.buya123batteries.com/articles.asp?ID=252

Stuff like this could sell.

I would like to see them in a 12v 10ah setup though kinda like these.

http://www.amazon.com/K2-K2B12V10EB-Lithium-Phosphate-Battery/dp/B0056BWK8I

They are offering a 2p4 (8 cells total) of the 26650 2.3Ah cells for $136? You get 10 cells in a dewalt battery for $99.

Either way though, do you think $2.24/Wh is very helpful to DIY'ers? I'm glad to see they are selling something to the public though, that's a great step in the right direction and I wish them the best of luck.

I am using A123 cells from 2006 almost everyday.

How many years do these cells last ?

I am thinking these cells can log a lot of miles on an ebike ! Looking at it that way it may be a good deal.

 

[etriker]

They really do sell to the DIY community.

http://www.buya123batteries.com/articles.asp?ID=252

Those batteries that you linked to are only good for 30-amp continuous discharge. I could get a Ping battery to do that for a lot less.

These are good for 50 amps max ?

http://www.batteriesinaflash.com/lithium-iron-phosphate/12v/k2-energy-k2b12v10e-12v-10ah-lithium-iron-phosphate-battery

They are cheaper and K2 did not need bailout money ?

I want them to be $29 !

 

[The Mighty Volt]

Okay, so what is the low-down with this company now and where does it leave us, the small-term user who just wants better cells for private use?

 

[neptronix]

Yeah, i saw that and i thought, what? they really want that kind of money for a 4.6AH 12v pack?
Would anyone here wish to spend $816 + shipping for a 36v 9.2AH pack?

How about:
$180 + shipping for some 36v 10ah RC lipo?
$316 + shipping for a 36v 10ah ping battery?
$350 + shipping for a 39v 9.2ah A123 cell_man pack?
$500 + shipping for a 36v 10ah allcell?

A123 cells might have very good longevity, but let's be real here. If you invest in them now, you are going to be kicking yourself when something better comes out. We are headed for 170-200whr/kg with reasonable output, and beyond in the future.

They really do sell to the DIY community.

http://www.buya123batteries.com/articles.asp?ID=252

Stuff like this could sell.

I would like to see them in a 12v 10ah setup though kinda like these.

http://www.amazon.com/K2-K2B12V10EB-Lithium-Phosphate-Battery/dp/B0056BWK8I

They are offering a 2p4 (8 cells total) of the 26650 2.3Ah cells for $136? You get 10 cells in a dewalt battery for $99.

Either way though, do you think $2.24/Wh is very helpful to DIY'ers? I'm glad to see they are selling something to the public though, that's a great step in the right direction and I wish them the best of luck.

 

[etriker]

Yeah, i saw that and i thought, what? they really want that kind of money for a 4.6AH 12v pack?
Would anyone here wish to spend $816 + shipping for a 36v 9.2AH pack?

A123 needs to wake up in the real world if they are going to sell to the public and make it.

I get my cells here.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=36589

ES forum members want the best, cheapest deals, that's for sure !

 

[arkmundi]

I am using A123 cells from 2006 almost everyday. How many years do these cells last ?
I am thinking these cells can log a lot of miles on an ebike ! Looking at it that way it may be a good deal.

Thanks for the post! I'm banking on longevity. I'm assuming your cells are the 26650 format? Before the AMP20's? Anyway, I believe we should expect the specified cycle life. In the case of the AMP20's, that' 2000 to 3000 cycles. I'd be happy to get 1500 cycles from my pack. For the sceptics out there, and just to put a lid on the crap, being an extensive reader here at ES and elsewhere, knowing what I know: if I were to build another pack today, I'd still do try to do it exactly the way I did, with A123 cells. I'm waiting for the new EXT's from the MI plant under the new management of Johnson Control's. I'm expecting 1-2 years for them to come onto the open market. When they do, I'm planning on doubling the capacity of my pack from 20ah to 40ah, for the range AND the redundancy.

 

[arkmundi]

A123 needs to wake up in the real world if they are going to sell to the public and make it.

They most certainly are quite aware. A real world company needs to be lead by a team that has technological, management and financial expertise in equal complements. Their mistake was in not having the right leadership mix. Let's also please start referring to the nanophosphate li-ion batteries of Johnson Control now, rather than A123, since the division has passed hands.

 

[myzter]

A123 accomplishment : Partner TTXGP the eGrandPrix

 

[hillzofvalp]

I wish I earned that 68% jump this friday... I was THIS close to getting some AONE two weeks ago

 

[arkmundi]

I wish I earned that 68% jump this friday... I was THIS close to getting some AONE two weeks ago

Naaa, not ready for prime time.

 

[e-beach]

I wish I earned that 68% jump this friday... I was THIS close to getting some AONE two weeks ago

I believe it is called a "dead cat bounce." Depending how the bankruptcy is going you may well be able to get 1000 shares for $100.00 still. Or even better. Just so you know all their common stock is worthless now and the gamblers are just having fun trying to make a bit of money from the fact that they can get a lot of stock for little money and if it goes up 1 or 2 cents, they make money on volume.

 

[neptronix]

You could have made 6 cents on your investment!

 

[e-beach]

You could have made 6 cents on your investment!

Or $496 if you bought 10,000 shares at $.06 for $600 and then sold them at $0.12 minus your $14.00 brokerage fee and 15% capitol gain tax.

Or $5086 if you bought 100,000 shares at $.06 for $6000.00 like a day trader would and then sold them for $0.12 minus your $14.00 brokerage fees and 15% capitol gains tax.

Sounds fun, but it is risky...any bad news and it goes from $.06 to $0.01 and you loose big. :lol:

 

[hillzofvalp]

Why is the common stock bad? Are they merging with johnson? Or are they going to re issue the common stock? What is the timeframe?

 

[neptronix]

Yeah, you'd have to buy an awful lot of shares..
I am not a stock trader, but how many stock traders roll the dice on games like that?