About to start my first eTrike build

[leew]

Hi, Been lurking for a while and considering building an eBike for some time now.
Spent some time looking at all the various motors etc trying to make my mind up what I want.
I have been using the simulator here which I found very useful: http://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html
My requirements are this:
45km/h (28mph) on flat ground cruising speed, I will spend most of my time at this speed as I intend on MSVA testing this bike and registering it as a Moped.
Reasonable hill climbing performance. Most of my riding will be on relatively flat terrain but on longer touring rides I could encounter hills upto around 15% (1:7)
Weight of bike and myself will be about 140kg.
I am looking for a range of about 240km/150 miles in ideal conditions on flat terrain cruising at around 40km/h
I would really like regen to help me maintain the 45km/h speed limit on downhills and share some of the braking load from my friction brakes (current thoughts for the friction brakes is 2x 90mm drum brakes front and a basic disc brake at the rear which will mainly be there to keep the lawmakers happy (Rear brake is required for MSVA).
My current thoughts for the motor is the 9c 3004 built into a 20" wheel. I have also considered the Crystalyte hs3548 motor but I like the 9c as it used a cassette hub as opposed to a screw-on block.
My current thoughts for the battery is 16 CALB CA-40ah LIFEPO4 cells in series to give 51v nominal, ~2Kwh. I have also considered the A123 20ah pouch cells in 2p16s which would be lighter but seem to be hard to find these days and seem much more expensive than the CALB. To manage the battery I am considering the orion-bms junior http://www.orionbms.com/downloads/documents/orionbms_jr_specifications.pdf
For a controller, currently considering the GRINFINEON - C3635-NC http://www.ebikes.ca/c3635-nc.html

 

[leew]

Hi forgot to mention that the "trike" I am looking to convert is a Quest XS. Using the simulator I am seeing about 10.5 wh/mi at the battery (using CdA of 0.09 and Crr of 0.008). I also have a Milan SL trike which I will be leaving as human powered, that can cruise at 25mph (40km/h) on 5.5wh/mi (actual measurement at the wheel, on flat, smooth road), the Quest XS is not quite as efficient the Milan SL but is not far off, I reckon it would take 6-7wh/mi at the wheel to maintain 25mph in it's pure human powered form, the added weight of the motor, 20kg battery pack etc will increase the rolling drag and thus the power requirement somewhat.
Does anyone know of a source of A123 20ah pouch cells in Europe? I have seen conflicting information on if they are even still manufactured or are the cells currently on sale old stock?
I don't really have a budget in mind, but don't mind spending a few thousand pounds to get a good machine.
Not familiar with Adaptto, will have a look into that now.

 

[dogman dan]

Ok, the 9c will do it. But a few thousand miles of very long distance per day riding has led me to build my long haul bikes with much bigger motors.

More copper, wider magnets, more torque. Now, that does not mean the big motor is inefficient. It could be, if you run faster than the 9c would. But it will be more efficient than a smaller motor when you do need full power, up those steepest hills. And when you are cruising sipping only a few hundred watts, it will be NO LESS efficient than the smaller motor.

Your bike won't be super light, you'll be carrying 30-40 pounds of battery for one,, So get the big motor for the hills. No risk of a too long hill overheating it.

 

[Eskimo]

On a velomobile you need a fast wind motor. Those things just want to go on a open flat road. On a downhill...wahey! You reach the limits of a standard wind DD pretty fast on a velomobile, it starts to limit your ride. Velomobile with a DD is quite hard equation actually. You need speed, but you also need climbing power to grind that god damn tank up
35-wide magnet motor is definitely enough. I run 28-magnet motor. 35-wide with fast wind would be best. 45-wide is overkill.
On a velomobile you want high voltage but low amps. You need speed but you don"t need maximum power much. Something like Grin"s 25A/72V-controller would be ideal.
Even MXUS 28-wide DD with fast wind does wonders, and is quite light. Of course if you live on a very hilly area, then that changes things.
Some velos don"t have two-sided rear fork, which makes hub motor use difficult. One guy here manufactured new two sided fork for his Mango.
If you live on a flat area, like you say, just go with fast wind 28 or 35-wide DD. Sorted. High voltage, low amps.

 

[leew]

Hi, thanks for the comments, Am I correct thinking the 9c 3004 and hs3548 are the fastest winds of each make of motor?
That leaf motor is interesting, when I first saw leaf motor mentioned I thought you meant the motor from a Nissan Leaf, which is MASSIVE!
Looking at it the leaf motor requires some tinkering out of the box such as upgrading the phase wires, where as the 9c and crystalyte are "plug and play"?
I like how it looks like I may get around 80% eff rather than 74% though
Using the simulator I don't see any gain in efficiency over using 72v rather than 48v at 45km/h cruise speed (will also be electronically limited to 45km/h).

I have also just discovered Ping batteries which look decent and would save me some time sourcing cells, connectors etc and assembling a pack myself so I may consider using a Ping pack, I like how they are available in several modules so I can distribute the weight evenly to maintain good weight and balance (the 48v 40ah comes as 4 'cubes'). Do you know how durable ping packs are, would I still need to make some-kind of hard cases to put them in for example? If I went with the A123 cells then I would most likely build some CFRP boxes to put them in and seal up with silicone to keep the water out.

I am weary of using a motor which is too powerful, not only due to the weight of the motor itself but also the stress on other parts such as the swing-arm and it's mountings to the CFRP chassis, the controller and wiring etc also needs to be beefed up.

 

[Drunkskunk]

That looks like it will be an epic project. It looks like you're be over 3.4 times more efficient per watt compared to a conventional ebike, on flat, level ground. the added weight will eat up some of that on starts and hills, but you'll still be cruising a long way per watt.

This could probably be done on any standard 28mm 9C, MXUS, or clone cheapy motor. you're not going to be pushing the trike hard in a velo at 25mph in most situations. However, If the airflow across the motor is going to be limited by the bodywork, I would opt for one of the larger motors like the MXUS 3000, or something along those lines. It may be more power than you need, but it will take the abuse of worst case scenario heating. Its also most likely the motor you want, after getting to ride for a while with the motor you needed.

 

[dogman dan]

Thanks Eskimo, for confirming what I was thinking about 28mm wide 9c. However, two of them is another option, if you can't find a 35 mm motor in the winding you desire.

I'd think in terms of 48v, but a faster winding that has more speed than 28mph in it (at 48v) would be a good idea, especially if you get enough motor to make those hill grades no problem. I'm assuming a 20" wheel? if so, you won't bog down on hills like 26" can. What I'm trying to say is, build for 32 mph leaving the garage, and then as you get mid ride and slow down, you are at your target speed of around 28 mph. You can use a Cycle analyst to limit speed to 28mph and stay legal. See what I mean, motor/controller/battery can do more, but you can still build to limit out at whatever is legal. And, if out where it's a reasonable risk, ride unlimited. 8)

Or, if you don't get the speed you need out of 48v and a medium fast winding, Ping sells a stock 60v battery that will get you that extra 5 mph. Ping is a decent choice, but honestly I'd prefer a (whatever they call it this month) lithium manganese cobalt 18650 pack. Get them in much smaller, much lighter, 48v 20 ah sections. Tons easier to carry than Pings. In my climate at least, lifepo4 doesn't last so long. So not much penalty for me to go Limn.

 

[leew]

Just ordered most of the parts for my build, went for PING battries in the end (3x 52v/15ah, giving a total of 45ah or 2.3Kwh). Getting a 5 turn 9c+ rear wheel drive motor from ebikes.ca. The rear version is not on the website yet but Justin said he had some pre-production ones on his bench. These motors have 0.35mm laminations and are pre-statoraided. Estimated range is about 180 miles .

 

[Eskimo]

Just ordered most of the parts for my build, went for PING battries in the end (3x 52v/15ah, giving a total of 45ah or 2.3Kwh). Getting a 5 turn 9c+ rear wheel drive motor from ebikes.ca. The rear version is not on the website yet but Justin said he had some pre-production ones on his bench. These motors have 0.35mm laminations and are pre-statoraided. Estimated range is about 180 miles .

Very good choice, excellent. That range estimation is about right. I go 100 miles with 40Ah pack, but my retro thing has greater drag and it"s heavier.
Put as wide as possible and as good quality tire as possible at the rear, +50mm. Traction and reliability is paramount. Use wide rim if you can choose.

 

[leew]

Current plan is to use a Schwalbe Energizer plus 47-406 rear tyre on a 32mm wide rim.

 

[leew]

Just had a bunch of parts arrive
Thanks Justin
The main part I am still waiting for is the battery.

 

[leew]

Could you please share the details of your front wheels?

Front wheels are Velomobiel.NL 90mm drum brake wheels. They are attached to Velomlobiel.NL MacPherson Suspension struts

 

[ScooterMan101]

Are the Fronts 26 inch wheels ?

Weight of each wheel ?

Are you going to make your own frame / have some fabricate it for you ?

Good to see you are going to use front suspension . Are you going to make a simple single pivot rear suspension swing arm ?

Really hope you have pictures of the build process. So far from your description it Looks like what I , also want in the future.

Could you please share the details of your front wheels?

Front wheels are Velomobiel.NL 90mm drum brake wheels. They are attached to Velomlobiel.NL MacPherson Suspension struts

 

[leew]

I have not weighed the wheels yet, the rear is possibly around 7KG though!
All wheels are 20" (406)
Rear suspension will be simple single pivot swingarm which I will be fabricating myself from steel with a TIG welder.

Are the Fronts 26 inch wheels ?

Weight of each wheel ?

Are you going to make your own frame / have some fabricate it for you ?

Good to see you are going to use front suspension . Are you going to make a simple single pivot rear suspension swing arm ?

Really hope you have pictures of the build process. So far from your description it Looks like what I , also want in the future.

Could you please share the details of your front wheels?

Front wheels are Velomobiel.NL 90mm drum brake wheels. They are attached to Velomlobiel.NL MacPherson Suspension struts

 

[leew]

Just noticed my motor does not appear to have a connector for a thermistor :'(, so looks like I am going to have to open up my brand new motor to add one :'( Unless perhaps Ebikes.CA will swap the motor for me, but shipping would cost a bomb.

 

[leew]

Batteries arrived today at long last!
3x PING 52v 15ah (~750wh each), high rate BMSs, hopefully good for 150-180 mi range. Two normal size batteries for under the seat and a custom thinner battery which will go under the pedal boom at the front to balance out the weight
The first thing I did was pop them on the charger, two of the batteries were topped up within minutes with all leds on, however one of the 3 batteries has been on the charger for about 3 hours now and one of the LEDs has not come on, is this something to be worried about?

 

[d8veh]

What was the reason for choosing LiFePO4? I calculate a weight of around 24kg! An equivalent capacity battery made with Panasonic GA cells would only have weighed 11kg, which is a massive difference. You can buy ready-made packs with these cells from Luna.