Almost ready BBS01 36v or BBS02 48v

[tomjasz]

It has been a fun week. Being retired all I did all week was load my brain down with choices of conversion kits. Seeing I'm giving up a fine Vespa 250 i'm gonna pull the pin on a setup that seems to be as technically advanced. At least in my mind. So here are the choices.

Bafang BBS01 36v w/ 10S 5P, 29E cells, 36V, 13.8Ah $1082.90

Or

Bafang BBS02 48v w/ 13S 4P, 29E cells, 48V, 11.0Ah $1160.70

Trek Pure Deluxe 3spd

No hills no and I'm no speed demon. As a matter of fact a bit of a dork. But you knew that by the bike.

 

[Ykick]

3spd, IGH? Does that mean you're going with front motor?

I've had both and ultimately enjoy the feel of riding rear hub more than front hub. I understand the allure of easy installation and preserving stock gears, weight distro, etc. But knowing both styles I would rarely considering going "back" to front hub motor wheels.

I do like the shape of that frame and at least provisions for rim brakes. 7spd rear cog would be my choice. You'll probably never shift out of high gear anyway. Many of us make room on our handlebars - remove shifters completely, lock in high gear and never miss a shift...

You can't really "go wrong" though. As long as you stick with it there'll be more than one eBike in your garage/shop in a year or two anyway, LOL.... Enjoy the journey and good luck!

Sorry, forgot to comment 36/48V all else being equal there's more energy with 48V. How you use that energy (speed/power) can be managed many ways but the fact remains 48V will have significantly more energy (Wh) to keep you moving than 36V.

 

[tomjasz]

3spd, IGH? Does that mean you're going with front motor?

um, no but I still might. However I posted in the non hub motor forum and listed two mid drives.

 

[Ykick]

3spd, IGH? Does that mean you're going with front motor?

um, no but I still might. However I posted in the non hub motor forum and listed two mid drives.

Ahh, terribly sorry and dense at the same time.... Maybe got you confused with another user/thread?

 

[tomjasz]

Internet experts at work! :wink:

 

[samsavvas]

Seeing I'm giving up a fine Vespa 250 i'm gonna pull the pin on a setup that seems to be as technically advanced. At least in my mind. So here are the choices...No hills no and I'm no speed demon. As a matter of fact a bit of a dork. But you knew that by the bike.

Tomjasz,

From the specs given I'm thinking that you are considering EM3ev's offerings. If so I will be very interested to hear what you think of them, especially the 350W and his batteries.

I can only offer my own experiences with the bottom of the range 36V/250W and I've actually just provided them on another active thread re 'BBSxx and IGH/foot brake'. You may want to have a look there. I suspect you and I are in similar situations. I'm 60 (no retirement for at least 10 years though) and have few hills to contend with. I'm not sure what a 'dork' is but I rather like the simpler IGHs and I don't ride too fast. I use my bike for commuting, shopping and 'just cruisin'. I reckon 36V is fine. It's cheaper, lighter and uses up a few less precious resources and I'd rather concentrate on range rather than speed anyway. You'll see from my comments on the other thread that IMHO and for the sort of riding I do (which is probably fairly common in big cities), I think 250 BBS watts are perfectly adequate. Quite enough 'tailwind' thankyou.

I wouldn't give up the Vespa though, especially if you bought it new. The value of bicycle use is almost completely discounted in our Western transport systems but so is the value of small scooter use. Both offer efficient single-person transport which 90% of the time is all that's required. Just park it for when you need to go a little further.

My 2 cents,

Savvas.

 

[jateureka]

I would go with the 36V and the 13.8Ahr battery with 5s cells.

I have just installed a 36V350W unit on a MTB and am gathering some test data with a wattmeter.
The MTB weighs 22.6kg with a 13.8Ahr battery. Before the conversion it weighed 15.2kg. I weigh about 70kg (155lbs).

On the flat with just throttle (no pedaling) at full throttle it is drawing 18 to 20A and will get up to about 32km/hr with a 46T front chain ring (not sure of rear cog size). I am not sure what the peak current draw is yet, but I saw at least 24Ap going up a slight rise, so you need a battery with a decent capacity and C-rating if you are going to use the throttle and want your battery to last.
[Edit - others have stated the BBS01/BBS02 are not suited to full throttle continuous use as they motor overheats]

In contrast, with light to moderate pedalling in pedelec mode highest assist level it draws about 7-8A and does 42km/hr on the flat once you are above a cadence of about 60rpm. You could get away with a smaller battery if you are going to pedal and only use full throttle in short bursts, which is how the unit is designed to be used.

 

[DAND214]

I'd go with the 48v 750w.
You don't need to use it but it's there if you need it.

36v 350w and it pulls 20amps at 32kmh, thta's just under 20mph.

Yeah that's leagal here but not really safe.

I know your gonna say you don't want the speed cause your retired, ME TOO but I want the speed if I need it.

Most of my riding is 20 or less but if I need to go I can.
I don''t have a BBS but am thinkin about it. All I know is you can turn it down if you want to but can't crank it up if it's not there.

Dan

 

[TroySmith80]

May not be what you want to hear, but having owned a hub motor bike, and spent a couple hours on a BBS02 i'd say the hub motor will suit you better. You say that you don't have major hills, and you're not a speed demon. In that case, a hub motor i think might be better.

I am leaning toward a BBS for my next bike, but that's because it's a cargo bike and i will sometimes be hauling a lot of weight on steep hills, so i'll want the ability to put the power through the bike's gears. The drawback is that the BBS is a little stressful on the drivetrain while shifting (maybe especially so on that 3-speed hub, i don't know) and it's just a bit more of a complication. The hub motors really are beauty in simplicity. They're great because it doesn't much matter if you forgot to downshift before coming to a stop, and they provide smooth steady power while you're accelerating and running through the gears. It's a lot like an automatic transmission in a car, as opposed to a manual. If you want that higher level of involvement then get a manual (mid-drive), if you just want easy cruising, get an automatic (hub motor).

I would recommend a rear hub-motor, i don't like the heavy steering and floppy front wheel on my front hub motored bikes. Or, if you get a front one, get a smaller and lighter geared hub motor, instead of a direct-drive.

 

[tomjasz]

I wouldn't give up the Vespa though, especially if you bought it new. The value of bicycle use is almost completely discounted in our Western transport systems but so is the value of small scooter use. Both offer efficient single-person transport which 90% of the time is all that's required. Just park it for when you need to go a little further.

My 2 cents,

Savvas.

Sadly I didn't retire by choice and the Vespa is to heavy with my disability. Believe me if there were any way to manage it I would. The value of scooters has plummeted as well. Gas is to cheap. The 250-300cc were 7k out the door after all fees are paid. I'll be lucky to see $3500 and with another $1000 in upgrades. Maintenance is crazy expensive. $500+ for a exhaust. $125 for a drive belt and the shops are all at $100/hr. I do my own maintenance but that too is becoming a struggle. I can no longer roll it onto a lift unaided. For an independent old fart that sucks huge.

I'm a big boy at 220. Down by more than I care to admit here but I'm still losing. I have a difficult time with most bikes. The only type I feel comfortable and balanced on are flat foot style comfort cruisers. I would like to use what I have. I've read here that the lighter geared front may not be stout enough for the weight I pushing. A rear conversion would mean losing the shifting capabilities of the bicycle by giving up the hub gears. Converting to a derailler system is not practical as the 3spd model does not have the frame lugs for derailler mount or adding rear brakes.

I've also read that if I were to go to the BBS01-2 I could put the bike in gear and not bother to shift. Worst scenario, I can conjur, busting up the hub I'd have to source a new hub. That could be a single sprocket freewheel. I think.

Thanks to the other answers I see that a DD may in fact ompletely change the steering dynamics. I hadn't considered that.

My favored LOOK is a front mini hub. My favored technology is the mid drive. Maybe I'm over thinking this, but several have commented the mid drives are more problems and maintenance. But that doesn't sound to be the case with you. Another reason I like the mid is the ease of changing to another bike. It is the only conversion that will work with my other bike. The failed Trek Lime, with it's power generating front hub and auto shift transmission. That unit can be set in low with no shifting and the BBS are a perfect and only match.


Thanks I really ppreciate the conversation and help. I was looking hard at a DD front this morning. I'm now back to the BBS02. A really tough front GD would still excite me.

Again thanks,


Tom

 

[TroySmith80]

Are you hauling a lot of weight on the bike in addition to your own body weight? If not, a front geared hub motor would be just fine. Even if you are hauling a lot of weight, i don't think it would be a problem. Every year or two you may need to replace a nylon gear, just make sure to buy a brand for which replacement parts are available. I would suggest a mac kit from cellman: em3ev.com

Mid-drive and bottom-bracket-drive kits are wonderful for those with special requirements, like the ability to climb steep technical trails in a low gear, or who want to haul a lot of weight with minimal power (slowly, in a low gear), or for some other reason really need the ability to run the assist power through the gears. They have a more complicated problem to solve and the mid drive is the solution.

however, if you are just a basic commuter, if you don't need to haul a ton of weight, or go super fast, or climb abnormally steep hills, etc, then your problem is a much simpler one, and the hub motor is the simpler and easier solution.

That said, ANY e-assist is so much fun and satisfaction that you can't go terribly wrong.

 

[tomjasz]

Are you hauling a lot of weight on the bike in addition to your own body weight? If not, a front geared hub motor would be just fine. Even if you are hauling a lot of weight, i don't think it would be a problem. Every year or two you may need to replace a nylon gear, just make sure to buy a brand for which replacement parts are available. I would suggest a mac kit from cellman: em3ev.com

Not a lot of extra weight. Our major grocery haul is a trip by cage, a 50 mile RT. I don't find a weight in the specs. I'll look again. I will be buying a mid drive from him. The it's the only option for our Trek Lime. Just a matter of how soon. In the meantime I'm thinking about and adventure in building. I have time and a source to learn from.

Mid-drive and bottom-bracket-drive kits are wonderful for those with special requirements, like the ability to climb steep technical trails in a low gear, or who want to haul a lot of weight with minimal power (slowly, in a low gear), or for some other reason really need the ability to run the assist power through the gears. They have a more complicated problem to solve and the mid drive is the solution.

I'm sold. Without someone to work and play with the BBS01-2 is my best option.

however, if you are just a basic commuter, if you don't need to haul a ton of weight, or go super fast, or climb abnormally steep hills, etc, then your problem is a much simpler one, and the hub motor is the simpler and easier solution.

I think it might be OK to fiddle through the frustration of a scratch build. I built all configured 20 Windoze computers for nearly 25 years, that was tedious.

That said, ANY e-assist is so much fun and satisfaction that you can't go terribly wrong.

Bingo!

Thanks,
Tom

 

[samsavvas]

Sadly I didn't retire by choice and the Vespa is to heavy with my disability. Believe me if there were any way to manage it I would. The value of scooters has plummeted as well. Gas is to cheap. The 250-300cc were 7k out the door after all fees are paid. I'll be lucky to see $3500 and with another $1000 in upgrades. Maintenance is crazy expensive. $500+ for a exhaust. $125 for a drive belt and the shops are all at $100/hr. I do my own maintenance but that too is becoming a struggle. I can no longer roll it onto a lift unaided. For an independent old fart that sucks huge.

I'm a big boy at 220. Down by more than I care to admit here but I'm still losing. I have a difficult time with most bikes. The only type I feel comfortable and balanced on are flat foot style comfort cruisers. I would like to use what I have. I've read here that the lighter geared front may not be stout enough for the weight I pushing. A rear conversion would mean losing the shifting capabilities of the bicycle by giving up the hub gears. Converting to a derailler system is not practical as the 3spd model does not have the frame lugs for derailler mount or adding rear brakes.Tom

As TroySmith has suggested it seems both the BBS and a hub kit would suit your needs well. In a flat environment I'm not finding the drive through the gears an enormous advantage although I do prefer to use the BBS PAS and I like to pedal. It sounds to me like the BBS might have some small advantage to you if you haven't quite arrived at your preferred bike - it is quite easy to swap to another bike and the connectors etc are very well thought out. However I imagine that a well sorted hub kit may not be difficult either! Although I don't have any experience of the EM3ev geared hub kits the owner Paul is very highly regarded. I understand that his kits come more-or-less as 'plug and play' and that he supplies excellent batteries. As do the E-Zee kits from e-bike.ca of course. There's a lot to be said for having expert and willing backup from your dealler!

One thing in favour of the EM3ev MAC kit for non-engineer, non-tinkering types and maybe those on 'fixed budgets' (is that an Australian-only euphemism?) is that it's very much a known quantity in terms of reliability, configuration and battery choices and user-experience and spare parts availability. It seems that the BBS is not quite at this stage yet (especially with regard to the 'white gear' inside). The BBS is a magic design - I suspect that you may just need to evaluate it really dispassionately with regard to value and utility.

Savvas

 

[tomjasz]

Just waiting for cell_man to pull the pin. I can't imagine how many times I'll vacillate between now and then but the battery is settled, at least.

 

[jateureka]

Tom,
if your Trek has a Nexus 3 speed coaster brake (pedal back brake) then you can't simply just wack a roller brake on that hub, as the roller brake version uses a different hub. What you can do is to dissable the coaster brake, I think I read this in instructables or hubstripping website, but then you need to use a rim brake and I'm not sure that Trek frame has the right mounts at the rear.
Maybe the BBS01 will work with a coaster brake hub as it has dual freewheels?

 

[samsavvas]

Maybe the BBS01 will work with a coaster brake hub as it has dual freewheels?

Actually, unless you want to be rid of the reaction arm etc, you can just install the BBSxx and leave the rear coaster hub alone. You just won't be able to use the brake because you can't exert any back-pedaling force. Maybe you can fit a caliper brake of some sort. There are lots of cheap and quite effective long-reach calipers around.

Savvas

 

[tomjasz]

Thanks jateureka and savvas. My kit is ordered. Once my scoot is sold I'll shop for a new hub with roller brakes. Until then I'll go hunting for the suggestion by savvas. Long-reach calipers? I'm not quite clear, but I do know that this frame doesn't have the lugs for brakes like the derailler version Pure. Perhaps I'll find the right long-reach calipers and forget the hub upgrade. More to do. This is evolving into a fun adventure. Thanks, thanks, thanks!!! What a find this forum has been!


Tom

 

[tomjasz]

Well I've done due diligence and am stuck..again. So, here's a couple of photos. Any ideas? Which would be the best forum section to post this question in?

Thanks again! This is coming together. Next to figure out what size chain to order a section to extend mine.

Regards,

Tom

 

[samsavvas]

Well I've done due diligence and am stuck..again. So, here's a couple of photos. Any ideas? Which would be the best forum section to post this question in? Thanks again! This is coming together. Next to figure out what size chain to order a section to extend mine.

I imagine that this bike uses a 3/8" BMX chain. Any bike shop will sell you a new one dirt cheap. However I can't see a brake mounting hole in that rear seat stay bridge. You may have to drill one or have a shop/builder do it. Just be careful - it needs to be a specific size and the brake may require a hole of differing diameter on each side of the bridge. The brake size is determined by measuring the distance from the centre of this hole to the centre of the rims brake surface, referred to as 'brake reach'. I would guess that you're looking for '(very) long reach' brakes. They're made by Tektro, Promax, Alhonga and many others. You'll also need to check that your tyre will fit through the opened brake shoes. First, before you do anything, measure things up. Lots of guidance on this stuff at the late Sheldon Brown's web site. And bear in mind that the longer the reach, the less satisfactory your stoppers are likely to be, especially if you're traveling above 20km/h!

You may be much better off thinking carefully about the Trek's suitability as a 'fast bike' - something I strongly suspect it's not designed for. I'd suggest just scrounging around for another more suitable frame or used bike (if your object is a cheap conversion). If you're commuting you'll probably want to run slicks or smooth tyres anyway for max grip, speed and silence and with a decent old mtb - apart from the motor- new tyres may be your only other major expense. I would guess it's pretty easy to find a decent old 1980s-early 90s unsuspended cromo Mtb with canti brakes. I think these make ideal e-bikes and commuters - my favourites anyway. One of my commuters is just a 1991 Shogun Prairie Breaker with Tange Prestige frame and Suntour XCPro servo brakes. Light, strong, simple and stops FAST - it's what I'm putting a BBS02 on when I get it together.

Savvas

 

[footloose]

Second the above.
Savvas is making a really good recommendation re the type of bike you might want for this project.

Re long-reach calipers. Have a set on rear wheel of one of my bikes. They are better than nothing... but not by much.
Better off just dragging my feet to stop, Flintstone-style.

 

[tomjasz]

Look, This is about what bike and frame fits me. You may not have, and I wouldn't expect you to follow my antics, but here's the deal. I'm getting out of riding a Vespa GTS 250ie because i'm no longer physically able to manage the vehicle. A flat foot, peddle forward bike is the ONLY frame that allows me to function on a bicycle given my handicap. So, what I need is help getting what I have to work. I've now learned that roller brakes are compatible with a Nexus hub. My hub MAY be able to be converted or I may have to string (?) a new hub with roller brakes. I'm not into speed. I'm interested in a practical design that takes my abilities/inabilities into consideration. This Is the frame those are the parameters. Thanks for your patience and guidance. With the forum help, critiques, and guidance I'm confident I'll have the ride I need. BTW I went with the 350W regardless of the recommendations that I'd want more speed. The 17 mph I was able to peddle when I bought it is just fine by me. Again, I appreciate your help and perspective...

I are a dork.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MiAFrSEryek

 

[footloose]

BBS01 is a good choice for your needs. I have BBS02, it is overkill for my needs.

I also have a very low mileage (maybe 50?) Nexus roller brake I tried with a Nexus-8 hub. Very cool design, but not a great stopper. PM me if you want it for your project... few bucks to cover shipping and it's yours.

But really, if a good pedal forward bike is what you need... Take a look at Electra cruiser bikes. Particularly the 7 speed derailer model. It is a great match for BBS0n, has real brakes, forgiving geometry, and pretty cheap. I see one in my own future

 

[tomjasz]

PM Sent

 

[samsavvas]

Look, This is about what bike and frame fits me.... A flat foot, peddle forward bike is the ONLY frame that allows me to function on a bicycle given my handicap. So, what I need is help getting what I have to work. I've now learned that roller brakes are compatible with a Nexus hub. My hub MAY be able to be converted or I may have to string (?) a new hub with roller brakes. I'm not into speed. I'm interested in a practical design that takes my abilities/inabilities into consideration. This Is the frame those are the parameters...I are a dork.

Apologies Tommo, I had forgotten the previous conversation about the Vespa etc and I hadn't twigged to the pedal forward design that the Trek is. Whatever the circumstances though you are going to need pretty decent front and rear brakes. The BBS01 will easily get me up to 30km/h with a bit of pedaling and who knows when some lunatic is going to pullout in front of you. If you can get a Shimano roller brake for the rear then do so but make sure the hub you use will take it - I'm not sure all Nexus hubs do (I've got a 4 speed that doesn't). Look for the tell-tale milled boss on the LHS - often covered up by a rubber cap.

If you go the caliper brake route I recommend a long reach dual pivot type as made by Tektro or Promax. Make sure the model you choose has beefy thick arms or you'll being doing the Fred Flintstone trick!

Savvas

 

[tomjasz]

Thanks, it seems I've backed myself into several corners. But that's the fun. Yes and thank you for the advise on adequate brakes. That has been a consideration and constant thought here. I'm looking at a Sturmey Archer hub with drum brakes. There are two models. They may be the build I need. I've spent many hours last night and this morning reading on hubs. It seems the drums may be better than roller brakes. The hubs are cheap enough, $100, so a burned out wouldn't be a complete disaster. Thanks again!

Tom