AM dual motor = bafang middrive + rear hub motor

[kiwiev]

Thanks mate I'm really keen to see how this works and loud the motor is....

I wish someone would make a AC motor like in my sonic 7 EV

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=69603

cheers Kiwi

 

[r3volved]

I think you would like the LR kit. It's significantly heavier than BBS, but probably overall lighter then your bbs+hub.

I use the small block at 72v. 48t-to-16t gets 55kph and still feels very torquey and strong. I find it too fast for trail riding... It wants to suck amps on acceleration so for off-road you want a quality discharge or a 20-22t rear would be super torque.

 

[John Bozi]

I think you would like the LR kit. It's significantly heavier than BBS, but probably overall lighter then your bbs+hub.

I use the small block at 72v. 48t-to-16t gets 55kph and still feels very torquey and strong. I find it too fast for trail riding... It wants to suck amps on acceleration so for off-road you want a quality discharge or a 20-22t rear would be super torque.

Cheers for the info,

I am getting lots of info saying how much this thing will chew through power... IF you go single speed is it equal or worse than a hub motor?

I like the idea of a single speed and if I must gear it down I think 30t front might be possible to whatever works well at back.

Sure my favorite top speed is 60km but I would prefer to give that up to have the best climber ever possible. Being able to access any mountain is more amazing than sticking to flatter stuff going faster.

If the big block is 4 times more powerfull than the bafang. I simply see that to get the same hill climb ability that the bbs02 could do @ 8kmh non stop then I am hoping to be able to do around 35kmh and drop more amps on the climbs.....

Sure bit slow but frock Id have down hill bike at the top of all the mountains to get pee my pants on coming down!



who knows we'll see. I am just as excited to get a new DH bike (not top spec) but for me the size of the wheels and suspension and just rolling over the rough shit after having to be carefull about clearance will be priceless I hope.

I am thinking of under powering the big block for a while through the gears for a while till I get bored and keep upping the power slightly while I plan out the final single speed set up.

 

[r3volved]

Well at 72v, I peak at 5kw on acceleration.
Typical cruising commute sits around 2-2.5kw. My CA shows 28.4wh/km after ~2000km so far.

I've never owned a hub, so I cannot compare performance. It IS a bit louder than any hub I've heard though.
I used to use a gng1.1 (similar style to LR) and was able to tow my son up and down the ski hills with no problems at 1.5kw...the LR is much more powerful.

I'd say that the small block overpowered will be more aligned with your current riding style than the big block underpowered.

 

[John Bozi]

I know what you are saying but my concern is the heat build up of smaller motors. Larger ones basically have more mass to deal with that heat. I am almost certain running the small block through dh biggest standard rear sprocket will see the motor reach critical temperatures on the first hill of the climbs around my area. I also live in a sub tropical zone, so no ski fields will compare when it comes to natural cooling unfortunately.

google maps of my riding area = https://www.google.com.au/maps/@-27.4453983,152.924654,9238m/data=!3m1!1e3
I posted this a while back in this thread, but it shows a typical ride I could do with my bafang / hub set up non stop, I forgot how long it took exactly but roughly 45mins. You can see the mountain at the back of my house is as extreme as it gets right from the start. My vented 20" wheel hub alone would hit way over 130 degrees to get up that, where as the bafang would get to the top just barely warm.

You run this single speed right? To what wattage would you ever run it through normal bicycle derailleurs and stock cassette?

I am looking so far most favourably in my budget at the cheapest dh glory.

How much lower is that huge outer chainring on the LR to the ground?

I don't plan massive jumps but looking at fully compressed glory's adds something to think about. I am also interested in the triangle battery space, I think the large could take 12s2p similar to my current bike in front of the shock on a alu folded sheet. The rest might go on the fork on the frame at the top somewhere...

this is the actual bike I am looking at = dont want 27.5 but ahwell sprockets can do the gearing... http://www.giant-bicycles.com/_pdf/bikes/australia/giantbicycles-76574-glory.27.5.2.pdf

I really want it to be a new bike and 2k is the most I can afford for another bloody bike....

 

[r3volved]

Here's my log so far: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=66699

I haven't had any heat issues in 30C summer. When I say ski hill, we do have a winter and a summer.

I ran my gng through a cassette at 2kw peaks and didn't seem to have *much* problem besides quick wear. I don't use a cassette now because I found I was rarely ever shifting, I could use a stronger chain, and my lower two cassette sprockets would skip. I decided to go beef with more amps and use a 1/2" BMX chain with a spring loaded rear tensioner (dérailleur style). So far I haven't had any chain drops from stairs or drops...I don't drop anything more than 2 feet though. I have two sprockets on my free hub (16 & 20t) and Mike's double chainring up front, so I actually have a 55kph and a torquier 35kph arrangements but they are manual Gear change and readjust the tensioner.

The bigger chainring is quite a bit bigger than my original truvativ crankset, but I have a big shock and you can probably see in my thread that the bike stands a bit higher at center than it should...I personally have a ton of clearance.

 

[nutnspecial]

Hey John, what is the length of that first climb? I'm guessing maybe 600 feet in a mile? I haven't done that to the bht yet, but I feel sure if it makes it, it will sufficiently cool for a repeat after the dh. What speed is optimal for the trail on that climb? If you can't go at least 15mph, the bht would need geared lower than mine imo. Especially as the ride weight increases.
That's where a multispeed serial middrive really shines. I think you could consider that with an ultra low cassette cog. They make like +40t cogs I believe. If you need the gearing and/or don't mind shifting, you might be headed in the right direction there.

If you're looking for a DH bike, I could at least maybe hook ya up with a frame. I have that Shore2 frame I'm not planning on using. Not sure what freight would be down there, and plus the most expensive part of the bike are the components anyway. Hopefully you can just find a complete one like I did. It was 700 shipped in the states, and although 'put away wet' is/was still in perfectly servicable shape. I will be running all the components, and wouldn't hesitate to run the frame if it suited my venture into slightly more moto/enduro.

 

[John Bozi]

Hey John, what is the length of that first climb? I'm guessing maybe 600 feet in a mile? I haven't done that to the bht yet, but I feel sure if it makes it, it will sufficiently cool for a repeat after the dh. What speed is optimal for the trail on that climb? If you can't go at least 15mph, the bht would need geared lower than mine imo. Especially as the ride weight increases.
That's where a multispeed serial middrive really shines. I think you could consider that with an ultra low cassette cog. They make like +40t cogs I believe. If you need the gearing and/or don't mind shifting, you might be headed in the right direction there.

If you're looking for a DH bike, I could at least maybe hook ya up with a frame. I have that Shore2 frame I'm not planning on using. Not sure what freight would be down there, and plus the most expensive part of the bike are the components anyway. Hopefully you can just find a complete one like I did. It was 700 shipped in the states, and although 'put away wet' is/was still in perfectly servicable shape. I will be running all the components, and wouldn't hesitate to run the frame if it suited my venture into slightly more moto/enduro.

probably a bit over a km. The distance is the bottom part of the chart just divide it roughly by the lines. Top speed is the tough part, there are so many switch backs and rough rocky rutty parts where being able to go slow means you got much better chances of getting a good line. That was wear the 8kmh bafang set up shone. Half the steep descents are like that, the others can get a run up or are a bit less rough and a higher speed can be maintained but not much more than 25kmh. There are long flatter fire trails that I have done around 60kmh too, but that's pushing my life to the limit, one mistake could mean saying hello to a gum tree rock garden. Hence 30kmh is kind of my favorite average speed for off road but under 50kmh on open roads starts to feel to slow....

Its always a negotiation...

my vented hub 20" gearing top speed was 45kmh if this LR enclosed kit gearing is at 45kmh I can only guess I will be facing the same over heating issues if it is single speed.

People say the coils on the outside cool faster and it spins at better rpms or whatever I dont quite understand but I am praying that I am wrong and the LR does run cooler.


On another topic:

I am searching compatible chains and just for myself to understand the vocab and posting here from wiki:

Sizes

The chain in use on modern bicycles has a 1/2" (=12.7 mm) pitch, which is ANSI standard #40, where the 4 in "#40" indicates the pitch of the chain in eighths of an inch, and metric #8, where the 8 indicates the pitch in sixteenths of an inch.
Shimano did make their own 10 pitch system with 10 mm pitch from about 1970 to 1980 - called Shimano 10 pitch. The Shimano 10 pitch system is incompatible with ANSI standard #40 (1/2") e.g. chains, sprockets and so on.

Width
Chains come in either 3/32", 1/8", 5/32", or 3/16" roller widths, the internal width between the inner plates. 1/8" chains are used on bikes with a single rear sprocket: those with coaster brakes, hub gears, fixed gears such as track bicycles, or BMX bikes. Chains with 3/32" wide rollers are used on bikes with derailleurs such as racing, touring, and mountain bikes. Fixed sprockets and freewheels are also available in 3/32" widths so fixed-gear and single-speed bikes can be set up to use narrow and lighter 3/32" chains. Finally, chains with 5/32" wide rollers are used on freight bicycles and tricycles.
With derailleur equipped bicycles, the external width of the chain also matters, because chains must not be too wide for the cogset or they will rub on the next larger sprocket or too narrow that they might fall between two sprockets. Chains can also be identified by the number of rear sprockets they can support, anywhere from 3 to 11, and the list below enables measuring a chain of unknown origin to determine its suitability.
06 speed - 7.8mm (all brands)
07 speed - 7.3mm (all brands)
08 speed - 7.1mm (all brands)
09 speed - 6.6 to 6.8mm (all brands)
10 speed - 6.2mm (Shimano, Campagnolo)
10 speed (Narrow) - 5.88mm (Campagnolo, KMC)
10 speed (Narrow, Direction) - 5.88mm (Shimano CN-5700,CN-6700,CN-7900)
11 speed - 5.5mm (Campagnolo, KMC, Shimano CN-9000)

The connex IR8 might be the toughest I can run but then I need to make sure the front sprocket and it's spacing is compatible and what rear cogs can I get to run with splined hub...

details about the IR8 =

Dimensions: 1/2" x 1/8"
Pin length: 10,50 mm
Roller width: 3,20 mm
Pin ejection pressure: >1500 N
Pin hardening: case-hardened
Links: 112
Weight: 517 g
For all hub gears with wider cogs and single-speed
Suitable for city/touring, single-speed/fixies and heavy duty

 

[nutnspecial]

I'll have to try to give you an example of what my single reduction can do on something like that! It's definitely steep, and slower speeds are what really hurt a single reduction or hub. (that are effectively 'geared' higher @ like 35mph)

I don't think there is any compare in that respect between a hub and middrive, because the middrive can be geared for the same top speed, or drop to the lowest gear on the cassette/chainrings and get like a 1:4 ratio. Lower speed, higher torque. It puts the motor in the right rpm for optimal torque at desired speed. Hubs just can't do that. I bet you'll be very happy with the LR.

Check out Dirtybikes by Foppel. Those guys are running LRs at high power. Give that thing high power and as much gear range as possible, and you got some major hill or speed versatility.

This helped me out on chains. http://www.gizmology.net/sprockets.htm

I'm not sure but I think 1/2x1/8 should work on bike gears up to 6spd? I know 1/2 is the right pitch, and width is mainly just for gear spacing on 6-10spd setups. Like I said, maybe check out Foppel too. Between him and Revolved I'm sure you'll get a kickass mid goin on.

 

[kiwiev]

Hey john

I have a Lapierre Spicy EI that I ride Thredbo on what would you recommend for a good solid mid drive don't really want PAS and twist thottle range 30-40km

Cheers Kiwi

 

[nutnspecial]

http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=6669676

This is the worst climb I can remember ever doing non electrified.
About 600ft in 1.3miles 182m\2km- it was murder lol.

This is the hill I've had in mind to test the bht. It's a fire road, so speed doesn't have to be crawling, but I can test the slow speed performance too. I'd say I'd shoot for 15mph avg, and 25mph avg (for fun). That's about 25-40 kph.

Buut that appears to not even come close to the mountains you're climbing?!

 

[John Bozi]

Hey john
I have a Lapierre Spicy EI that I ride Thredbo on what would you recommend for a good solid mid drive don't really want PAS and twist thottle range 30-40km
Cheers Kiwi

positive then negative

Positive

You are a lucky ass to ride Threadbo, I only dream of going down there again one day. I have only skied there twice and just love that region.

Negative

You have the biggest climbs in Australia. At probably 2 or 3 times higher climbs I can only recommend a dual motor approach or venture into territory that I am going to soon with the LR big block.

Even if I ran my bafang custom geared I don't know if it can pull for 20 km at 8 kmh. It may be able to. But you can choose for yourself whether my methods of a huge chain ring at the back in a small wheel and surrendering being able to pedal at anything but 8kmh is your cup of tea. If you choose to run through more gears I can only say it won't work with this mid drive. The chain line is rubbish for granny end of things and there is no such derailleur that exists that would run the 48t sprocket that I run.

I still run my 48t but now on a 26" wheel, and the my top speed has kicked up to 12kmh on flats or about 10kmh on steep. But now I can't climb the steepness of off road where traction and motor capability meets. I am now into bog down territory.

Only because it is convenient I would suggest a mid drive hub motor set up, because I cannot imagine where a second mid drive would sit that would not get in the way of the drive line.

The big block could do it but nobody I that I know of has unleashed it's potential. The reason for this is that there is only so much torque bicycle drivetrain is capable of.

The amount of torque is probably at where the bafang is or you can try the

AFT australian mid drive cyclone. He makes them down south nearer you. The gng and cyclone kits as stock will be a PITA to keep modding...

hope this helps...

 

[John Bozi]

http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=6669676

This is the worst climb I can remember ever doing non electrified.
About 600ft in 1.3miles 182m\2km- it was murder lol.

This is the hill I've had in mind to test the bht. It's a fire road, so speed doesn't have to be crawling, but I can test the slow speed performance too. I'd say I'd shoot for 15mph avg, and 25mph avg (for fun). That's about 25-40 kph.

Buut that appears to not even come close to the mountains you're climbing?!

I am sure steeper exists somewhere but they are usually in most people's blind spot. I have lived where I am most my life surrounded by mountains but almost never ventured into them because the mind just casts an unconscious area of what would you do there when it is so dam steep.

I have now accessed pretty much an insane amount of trail. I have taken every turn on stuff in 30km radius around me. And have been dropped off in a car to explore even further out where I just had to come back on my battery.

There is so much stuff if you watch a few of my videos, that I had to push my hub up on before that I could then do with the bafang. And yet there is still just as much stuff that reaches the 100% range or 45 degree angle that traction and wheel clearance made impossible.

I don't think the lightning Rods kit will match what I could do with my dual motor set up.

I do believe the bht with no pedals and a pitbike rear wheel set up could do much more. The limitation is the need for a freewheel when pedals are introduced and traction of bicycle sized footprint tyres.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/90-100-14-Inch-Rear-Back-Wheel-Sprocket-Disc-Bolt-Dirt-Pit-PRO-Trail-Bike-/111645662901?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_15&hash=item19fe999eb5
I do believe even though the LR bike is not even started that I will make a custom bike around a pitbike wheel and pitbike swingarm..... you need the chain and sprockets and put the motor on the swingarm, no dam tensioners.

 

[John Bozi]

update

my shity hub

a few ride ago as I was going up a hill I felt what I can only describe as a slip in power.

about a ride or two ago I felt what I can only describe as a bearing go

then last time or two I rode it seemed kind of fine.

I was stoked last time because I finally got the mid drive working without any chain issues.

I hopped on my bike to run to the shops as I had a few beers and can't risk being breath tested, as soon as I went to pull on the throttle I know I have blown the hall sensors.

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

I am not surprised as it is a 48v 1000w hub that I've been running at up to 60v 70 amps. just under 4kw on steep hills.

So I pulled out my carbon hardtail and sweat my fat ass off.... :lol:

Anyway my next move is to finally swap over controllers to the greentime sensored/sensorless which is unprogrammable set to 80 amps ............ poor frocken chinese hub motor is going to pay. Unless I fry the phase wires or magnets drop off it will do my on road duties .....

Sensorless will be bloody weird I reckon and now I am glad I have the mid drive to do all the take offs.

 

[John Bozi]

http://www.velosolo.co.uk/disccog.html

they go all the way up to 22t which would be my choice.

these could even be used on the disc brake side or offer ways for adapters to interface with a big foot on shimano styled splines.

 

[drew12345]

Look forward to seeing how LR kit turns out for you. Should be great for the mountains.

 

[John Bozi]

thanks drew, it might be great or it might be much the same as my hub motor only better weight distribution and more things to stuff around with.....

If I gear it down to somewhere between my hub motor and my bafang I think it will be in a sweet negotiated space. I reckon 30kmh will be right it in the middle....

Till then it will be lots of breaking stuff.

I just bought

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Single-speed-cog-fix-disc-hub-Teeth-16T-FOURIERS-Logo-/161775917695?hash=item25aa989a7f

3/32" isnt what I really want so will get the 1/2 x 1/8 velo gear cog and I hope it still fits. Might be to wide? Anyway I am hoping that a few of these together might be stronger however I think it is not ideal as those shimano hub style splines are all on a slant so I dont understand how it all would piece together without any play.

 

[John Bozi]

I ummed and ahhed a while because I didn't want to spend a cent on this Chinese hub I am running as I predict I will break it and then be more pissed off that I invested time and money on it. However if I am going to keep flying around the streets on it as I have been around 55kmh I better invest in brakes.

I just spent $50 au to get this thread on disc brake adapter for the hub

http://www.bicycledesigner.com/bike-parts/bicycle-brake/disc-brake-adapter---free-or-flip-flip-hub.html

Now if I get another hub motor for this dual motor bike then I am staying with 26" and am looking at ways of gearing down more for the steep stuff again.

I'd like a custom 21t chainring as you can see how it would fit the 5 holes of the bafang.

I might get this machined to fit.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/TALON-ALLOY-CHAINRINGS-BLACK-TCBL02-58BCD-22-TOOTH-/191626436470?

 

[drew12345]

John, when do you expect the LR kit?

 

[Nelsjourney]

John, if you do the research you will find that parts for the Bafang motor that you use are not that expensive. There are many videos that show you how to take the whole motor apart. Not only that but the controller can be updated. Maybe not for the amount of power you want to throw at it but it can handle enough to get you around town without any problems. If you go to electricbike (subscriber) on youtube. You can see what he is doing with his bafang motor and the ridiculous speed he is getting. He even has videos how he took his whole motor apart and replaced inner gears that needed fixing.

 

[John Bozi]

John, if you do the research you will find that parts for the Bafang motor that you use are not that expensive. There are many videos that show you how to take the whole motor apart. Not only that but the controller can be updated. Maybe not for the amount of power you want to throw at it but it can handle enough to get you around town without any problems. If you go to electricbike (subscriber) on youtube. You can see what he is doing with his bafang motor and the ridiculous speed he is getting. He even has videos how he took his whole motor apart and replaced inner gears that needed fixing.

I know it can do ridiculous speed, however it cannot do ridiculous climbing unless you gear it right. There is no cassette system with deraileur I know of for changing gears for my 30t front 48t rear. Even that is not slow enough for the steep stuff I climb in a 26" wheel.

Drew I imagine 2 months, however, in the next few weeks I'll have to make a final decision on the bike it's going on as you know the BB area info is very important. Shame that you can't just pull it off and chuck it on a different bike.

My dilema is DH bikes pivot area clearance, and then rear 150mm axles are rare to find parts for customizing a tough freewheeling system. If I stay with 135 white industries products will be my first choice.

But I am pretty dam sure I want maximum DH experience with this bike well up to entry level $ prices.

 

[John Bozi]

Option 1 is brand new glory 2 = all is new, fork low end spec but easier maitenance $2k - big S bend is not ideal requiring a longer bb and torque arm more than if shorter.

second hand options = must be nearish to my house as I'd only ever buy in person after seeing and playing with the bike.

bikes with beautiful straight lines on top and bottom for battery tray and motor mounting

2. $800 cheap old - but really simple pivot and totally out the way of bb area and might make a really easy short torque brace point. possibly old clapped out bike.
http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-view-details.html?adId=1085567510 It's a long bloody drive to go look.

3. $2k couple of years old - I need to see in person if the pivot/swing arm is inbound of the end of the bb shell. that frame new is rrp 3k so second hand if in great condition is worth the 2k alone. closish to home.
http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/indooroopilly/bicycles/morewood-makulu-downhill-bike/1085682977

4. $1.5k intense m6 - dont know why but just love that frame. pivots look complex though - this isn't the bike but shows the frame and not sure if the pivot is inbound of the bb shell http://s700.photobucket.com/user/erikkellison/media/July%201012/IntenseM6LargeStealthBlackFrame01.jpg.html or http://s204.photobucket.com/user/safetysam87/media/bicycles/2011-07-05074847.jpg.html yes it looks like the bb shell is past the swing arm

http://www.rotorburn.com/forums/showthread.php?293993-intense-m6-(medium)

then there are bikes with big s bends but battery room

http://www.rotorburn.com/forums/showthread.php?288678-Kona-Supreme-Operator-Large-1900

 

[kiwiev]

Hey mate

I wished you were looking in May Thredbo sold all there 2013 Glorys for $1200 fully taped up frames and serviced my mate got one ite v2 but cheap bike.

Check out Jindabyne notice board on FB people get tight for $$$ at the end of winter

I can go and check for you if you see anything

Cheers Kiwi

 

[John Bozi]

Thanks Kiwi but hoping to buy local so I can personally check it as well shipping and handing cash to strangers.

Rotor burn is pissing me off! they aren't posting my messages or replies even though I have trading access............

I really want the m6, its just a plain sexy bike.

EDIT

Just spotted an m6 on gumtree fingers crossed! big long drive to check it out but Ill do it as its cheaper.

http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/yandina/bicycles/2010-intense-cycles-m6-fro-medium-downhill-bike/1083447314

 

[Samd]

M6 gets my vote. Those rear dropouts are gold for replacing with plates.