Anyone have aspergers? Is "weird"?

[swbluto]

I suspect this gal is "close" to the spectrum. Not sure how close, but close.

[youtube]Cg7erbQkdUg[/youtube]

 

[swbluto]

Those random newstories when "the schizophrenic, in a drug-induced haze, killed his roommate because he thought he was the devil", I usually suspect that the roommate may be close to spectrum and that drugs simply lowered the schizo's carnal inhibitions, even though I know absolutely nothing of the situation other than what the news article tells me. (I could be wrong...)

Reason being that killing serves an evolutionary purpose, getting rid of 'evil genes' (Subjective notion, yes, but 'evilness' in the context of 'evil genes' tends to be determined by the norms which is in turn determined by nature - though it ultimately depends on what the individual views as evil. Maybe that norm is determined by the prevailing neurology or ethnicity or possibly something else entirely. i.e., white people instinctively thinking the blacks as 'bad news'. Btw, given my experience with Atlanta's black southern half, I definitely don't think that instinct is wholly unjustified.). What might be thought of as the opposite, procreation, can be thought of as multiplying 'good genes'. (Though, nature works more like assortative mating (Likes mate with likes) rather than a unipolar eugenics program, so that's an overly simplified comparison.)

 

[swbluto]

I believe the uncanny valley concept is highly related to ASDs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley

The typical person with ASD might be somewhere between a bunraku puppet and a "healthy person". Though, based on some of my personal experiences, I might be closer to a zombie, lol. (I get the feeling, quite often, that quite a few people want to kill me - not in the sense that they actually will, but that the feeling is there.)

For those curious, this is a bunraku puppet.

I highly suspect it's related to ASDs because of the unusual similarity between the purported evolutionary purpose of it and the kind of treatment people with ASDs tend to get within the context of society, and also, the well-noted 'deficits' in nonverbal and tonal regulation among those with ASDs.

From wiki on the evolutionary purpose of uncanny valley:

Mate selection. Automatic, stimulus-driven appraisals of uncanny stimuli elicit aversion by activating an evolved cognitive mechanism for the avoidance of selecting mates with low fertility, poor hormonal health, or ineffective immune systems based on visible features of the face and body that are predictive of those traits.[11][12]

People with ASDs tend to have diminished immune systems, though not always.

Pathogen avoidance. Uncanny stimuli may activate a cognitive mechanism that originally evolved to motivate the avoidance of potential sources of pathogens by eliciting a disgust response. "The more human an organism looks, the stronger the aversion to its defects, because (1) defects indicate disease, (2) more human-looking organisms are more closely related to human beings genetically, and (3) the probability of contracting disease-causing bacteria, viruses, and other parasites increases with genetic similarity."[12][14] Thus, the visual anomalies of android robots and animated human characters have the same effect as those of corpses and visibly diseased individuals: the elicitation of alarm and revulsion.

Yes, that response I was referring to earlier seems to be a "disgust response". I personally think of it more of a "weirded out" response, but disgust seems to be pretty closely related. With the kind of behavior that typically follows, 'revulsion' definitely seems to capture the essence of it quite well.

Violation of human norms. The uncanny valley may "be symptomatic of entities that elicit a model of a human other but do not measure up to it".[16] If an entity looks sufficiently nonhuman, its human characteristics will be noticeable, generating empathy. However, if the entity looks almost human, it will elicit our model of a human other and its detailed normative expectations. The nonhuman characteristics will be noticeable, giving the human viewer a sense of strangeness. In other words, a robot stuck inside the uncanny valley is no longer being judged by the standards of a robot doing a passable job at pretending to be human, but is instead being judged by the standards of a human doing a terrible job at acting like a normal person. This has been linked to perceptual uncertainty and the theory of predictive coding.

People with ASDs tend to have a terrible time acting like a "normal person".

 

[swbluto]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/26/opinion/sunday/immune-disorders-and-autism.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

-"An Immune Disorder at the Root of Autism"

Her celiac disease, an inflammatory disease prompted by proteins in wheat and other grains, increased [the development of autism] by 350 percent.

Oh, interesting. I do wonder...

Studies have shown that approximately 5-10% of people with Down syndrome also have celiac disease

Celiac disease, an inflammatory process caused by autoimmune sensitivity to the gluten in wheat (Don't eat wheat = no celiac's disease), seems to be associated with the development of a variety of genetic disorders in a women's offspring. That seems to reconfirm the notion that chronic inflammation affects the gestational development of a women's offspring, as the first article suggests. Inflammation, as caused by constant inhalation of highway emissions, also is known to affect the development of autism in gestating babes.

Curious seeing the link between inflammation and various disease processes. It's known to be associated with longterm cardiovascular risks (stroke,heart attack), whether because of longterm wheat consumption, smoking or rheumatoid arthritis or whatnot.

So, apparently many people on the spectrum out there are because their mum was a westerner and ate bread. I suppose that's more innocent than smoking, lol.

 

[swbluto]

Let's put these causal relationships into a map.

Gestation:
Inflammation->Down's Syndrome, Autism, ADHD (As far as I know)

Celiac's or Gluten Sensitivity+Wheat consumpiton-> inflammation
Smoking, vehicle emissions inhalation, arthritis or any of the inflammatory disorders -> inflammation

Persistent Inflammation->Longterm cardiovascular risks, such as Heart Attack and Stroke

Worry,anxiety,fear->Overuse of Adrenal Glands->long term kidney damage->high blood pressure and higher chance of cardiovascular risks,higher risk of kidney failure/disease

Winter months, loneliness(All types, including "being lonely in marriage"), lack of regular exercise -> anxiety,fear

There seems to be a relationship between worry/anxiety/fear and inflammation though I'm not entirely sure what it is. Maybe cortisol, adrenaline or any of the "worry biochemicals" suppresses the immune system which suppresses the anti-inflammatory response? That might help explain why worry/anxiety/fear seems to be associated with longterm cardiovascular risks, as cardiovascular risks are mediated by the build up of fatty calcified deposits in the blood vessels, and it's known that's caused by an inflammatory event on the blood vessels.

 

[neptronix]

Our diet and food supply certainly could use some help.

Loads of sugar/carbs.
Hundreds of pesticides.
Glyphosate aka roundup ( works by preventing synthesis of tyrosine, norepinephrine, tryptophan, which are precursors for dopamine, epinephrine, erotonin )
Hundreds of additives.
GMOs with pesticides inside ( BT corn, etc )
Non-nutritive substances ( cellulose for example ) being passed off as nutritive substances.
Barium and aluminum making it's way into the soil.
Fertilizers made out of petroleum rather than compost 'n the ol' traditional cow poop.
RBST, antibiotic-fed meat animals, should i go on..

We have perverted the fuel that we put into our bodies so bad that it is virtually impossible to really point the finger at one thing specifically..

 

[swbluto]

Our diet and food supply certainly could use some help.

Loads of sugar/carbs.
Hundreds of pesticides.
Glyphosate aka roundup ( works by preventing synthesis of tyrosine, norepinephrine, tryptophan, which are precursors for dopamine, epinephrine, erotonin )
Hundreds of additives.
GMOs with pesticides inside ( BT corn, etc )
Non-nutritive substances ( cellulose for example ) being passed off as nutritive substances.
Barium and aluminum making it's way into the soil.
Fertilizers made out of petroleum rather than compost 'n the ol' traditional cow poop.
RBST, antibiotic-fed meat animals, should i go on..

We have perverted the fuel that we put into our bodies so bad that it is virtually impossible to really point the finger at one thing specifically..

Yeah, it's a complex multifaceted problem and it's hard to point at one thing, like you say, but it's possible to identify some of the 'major causes' by looking at trends and stats. Doesn't mean that I've identified all of them, there's undoubtedly many more, but it doesn't hurt to learn as much as possible and optimize ones diet/lifestyle accordingly. (Assuming you can do so without being too worried about it, lol.)


Anyway, much of the factors you've identified seem to be highly associated with weight and cancer risks. Many of them are also banned in Europe... High Carbs/Sugar consumption (As typical of the modern american diet) seems to be associated with diabetes, which is related to significant cardiovascular and cancer risks. Talking about how the modern diet has been changing and the affects on diabetes trends...

Diet might be to blame, the increased prevalence of sedentary lifestyles might be, too. Increased detection might be a factor, too, given the pharmaceutical kickbacks to the doctors and the more advanced medical technology.

 

[neptronix]

http://www.amazon.com/Salt-Sugar-Fat-Giants-Hooked/dp/1400069807

Now that you've branched out into diabetes-ville, i gotta say... i've been reading this book and it's quite shocking. Have you checked it out?

Here is a quote from an interview with the author:

The food processing industry is more than a century old--if you count the invention of breakfast cereals--so it’s been steady growth. But things really took off in the 1950s with the promotion of convenience foods whose design and marketing was aimed at the increasing numbers of families with both parents working outside the home. The industry's expansion, since then, has been entirely unrestrained. While food safety is heavily regulated, the government has been industry's best friend and partner in encouraging Americans to become more dependent on processed foods.

Geez, your graph locks on target with what he is saying. Women started entering the workforce, and Americans got hooked on the convenience since they had less time. Just got worse from then on..

 

[wineboyrider]

EUGENICS!

 

[swbluto]

I suspect this gal is "close" to the spectrum. Not sure how close, but close.

[youtube]Cg7erbQkdUg[/youtube]

Need to observe how she interacts with others to judge autistic-ness, seeing how she responded to this guy's question about how every girl thinks he's stalking them but he just has bad communication skills with other humans, and how she critiqued his word usage of "other humans" and she got angry at him, I definitely don't think she's on the spectrum (It's not uncommon for NTs to get angry at an autie's word usage patterns; it's part of the whole "Dammit, you don't follow the linguistic norms you barbaric heathen!" deal.). Especially after seeing how she interacted with her friend over the kia soul with typical neurotypical excitation patterns. I suspect, however, the guy was. 2-3% of guys are, so it's not uncommon.

 

[swbluto]

http://www.amazon.com/Salt-Sugar-Fat-Giants-Hooked/dp/1400069807

Now that you've branched out into diabetes-ville, i gotta say... i've been reading this book and it's quite shocking. Have you checked it out?

Here is a quote from an interview with the author:

The food processing industry is more than a century old--if you count the invention of breakfast cereals--so it’s been steady growth. But things really took off in the 1950s with the promotion of convenience foods whose design and marketing was aimed at the increasing numbers of families with both parents working outside the home. The industry's expansion, since then, has been entirely unrestrained. While food safety is heavily regulated, the government has been industry's best friend and partner in encouraging Americans to become more dependent on processed foods.

Geez, your graph locks on target with what he is saying. Women started entering the workforce, and Americans got hooked on the convenience since they had less time. Just got worse from then on..

How interesting. Yeah, that's one thing I try to avoid entirely, processed foods, I'm convinced nature had intended for humans to eat food as close as possible as it is naturally in nature(*). Interesting seeing the correlation between processed foods consumption and diabetes, not too surprising considering what processed foods do (They strip the fiber and/or enervate it and/or liquify it and/or "process it" which on one hand increases the intensity of the flavor because of the increased rate of absorption of the flavorful food molecules, but also increases the peak loading on the insulin system in the body because of its increased rate of absorption into the blood stream. Also doesn't help that sugar and wheat consumption stimulates appetite, which further increases the load on the insulin system of the pancreas.), but still interesting to see such an explicit relationship. An eightfold increase in diabetes is pretty fricking serious and it looks like the tide isn't slowing down...

(*Technically, human bodies had adapted around the food that occurs in nature, so the human body is optimized around what's in nature, not there's an explicit 'intention' of nature or anything. Just typical anthropomorphic thinking on my part, with the theory of mind I have.)

 

[swbluto]

Well, his options were limited to a 10mpg SUV or a 40mpg rental car, and he chose the 10mpg suv as he can't rent cars and the only car a relative had available was the SUV. Just calculated the gas costs and it's $1000!

Holy crap, enjoy your vacation! Glad I'm not!! :lol: (It'd be significantly cheaper for me to rent a car and drive it down there, then to share the gas costs with him in the SUV. The true win-win would be to share gas costs in a fuel-efficient car, but I understand people have motivations for choosing the lose-lose scenario even if it's not really a loss to me. It's more like a...meh...nothing's changed.)

 

[swbluto]

Lol, his friend's father is feeling an evil presence in California so they're planning on going to Ohio to visit six flags. Lol, wuttt???

I do wonder... He might not be wrong... it's possible something bad could happen like getting stopped by a cop for speeding, lol. (He was planning on driving there within a day, with what would probably have been a 20 hour drive, and he was planning on shortening that by speeding ~10mph over the speed limit. With how cash strapped California and its municipalities are, I'm guessing that'd be a guaranteed ticket.)

 

[swbluto]

Dauntless = jerk. Keeps maligning my character and intent up the freaking yin yang.

That's ok, I don't understand him much either. Gibberish has a way of doing that. Makes too much use of non-clearly defined pronouns and idiomatic and metaphoric speech.

His social cognition keeps polluting his thought patterns with meaningless statements, too - what a tragedy! Always making references to how he's one of the herd and how that makes him feel justified or some shit like that, someone else finds him more attractive than the sleezebucket in the corner, has typical status seeking behavior while having pisspoor financial habits, keeps talking about those "nebulous others that are talking about me" that he presumes I give one shit about.

Jesus Christ, don't pollute my technically-oriented and futuristic threads with such gibberish, ya eejit bunghole. Redirect whatever status-jockeying you feel is oh so important to more germaine threads.

 

[swbluto]

Today's lesson in aspergers is that of mind-blindness.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind-blindness

Mind-Blindness can be described as a cognitive disorder where an individual is unable to attribute mental states to the self and other. As a result of this disorder the individual is unaware of others' mental states. The individual is also not capable of attributing beliefs and desires to others.[1] This ability to develop a mental awareness of what is in the mind of an individual is known as the Theory of Mind (ToM). This allows one to attribute our behaviour and actions to various mental states such as emotions and intentions. Mind-blindness is associated with autism and Asperger's syndrome (AS) patients who tend to show deficits in social insight.[2] In addition to autism, AS, and schizophrenia, ToM and mind-blindness research has recently been extended to other disorders such as dementia, bi-polar disorders, anti social personality disorders as well as normal aging.[3]

Generally speaking, the "Mind-blindness" Theory asserts that children with these conditions are delayed in developing a theory of mind, which normally allows developing children to put themselves "into someone else's shoes, to imagine their thoughts and feelings."[4] Thus, autistic children often cannot conceptualize, understand, or predict emotional states in other people.[5]

When people make statements like,

Awk. You lost me. Into the bozo bin with you

When there's multiple simultaneous conversational tangents going on and the person being responded to isn't explicitly identified, typically people "read the other person's mind" with their theory of mind abilities and know what they're talking about. However, a person with mind-blindness such as those with AS, won't necessarily know the "who" the person is referring to with the word 'you' (This is the not-explicitly defined pronouns I was talking about earlier) let alone what exactly they're lost with nor why the person is being thrown into the bozo bin. Just because someone doesn't understand something highly technical in nature, and the person doesn't necessarily explain it well enough for their simpler mind to comprehend, doesn't make them a bozo...?

Or does it?

I suppose the neurotypical thinking goes that it does, because the person who thinks like others can communicate well with them, and that's the root of 'intelligence'.

That is, when people talk about someone being stupid, they're typically not talking about IQ, mathematical prowess or academic ability. They're *really* talking about social cognition and mind-reading-abilities offered by a sufficiently developed theory of mind. People often aren't conscious of this and would be hard-pressed to explain what defines someone who's intelligent/stupid, but it's clear to me that's what most people really are talking about when thinking of intelligence. They are really thinking of what might be called 'social intelligence'.

Thus, why I tend to think I'm twice exceptional.

Highly Gifted and socially disabled. The latter wasn't figured out until MUCH later. I didn't even know *how* bad I was (Let alone in what ways, besides the very obvious affect I tended to have on others and accidentally killing every friendship in ways I still don't fully understand), other than it seemed pretty bad, until formal testing concluded.

The term twice exceptional, often abbreviated as 2e, refers to intellectually gifted children who have some form of disability.[1] These children are considered both because of their intellectual gifts and because of their special needs.

A 2e child usually refers to a child who, alongside being considered intellectually above average, is formally diagnosed with one or more disabilities.[citation needed] The disabilities are varied: dyslexia, visual or auditory processing disorder, obsessive-compulsive disorder, sensory processing disorder, Asperger syndrome, Tourette Syndrome, or any other disability interfering with the student's ability to learn effectively in a traditional environment.

 

[swbluto]

On wrong planet, I saw someone like adulating over a member called Soro. I was thinking, "she has a fan club"?

Does she really have aspergers? Seems really doubtful - She acts NT, Interacts with others in an NT way, Disapproves of aspies in a way similar to an NT's disapproval, apparently has fans unlike a typical aspie? There would have to be something with her countries(France) psychological system that misdiagnosed her (Wait, did I say that because of my systems thinking? hehe... okay... going with 'social' thinking, I'd say something like "Her psychologist tends to be wrong"). I think, more than likely, she may be closer to ADHD with a high IQ. She doesn't have "ordinary tantrums or shutdowns" like typical aspies, rather, she gets ticked off by other people and gets simply violent/abusive with them. And, it's not uncommon for high iq people with ADHD to be popular.

 

[arkmundi]

http://www.aspergerstestsite.com/75/autism-spectrum-quotient-aq-test/#.UdUXbX23PMI

"Your AQ Test Score is: 24", meaning no. And the only reason I bothered taking it is because a PhD candidate I knew said he thought I fit the label.

But doing some reading on it and thinking about it, it begs the larger question of "normalcy". I mean, looking back, it seems the whole point of high school & college, the educational "system" is to build conformity. I believe most capitulate, doing everything to "fit in". And then those, like me, who at one point, just say frack that shit, I really don't care that much if others think I do or not, and am willing to just walk away from any social situation that makes me feel uncomfortable.

I'm quite confident that evolution equipped humans for interaction and that there is most probably a spectrum of response. So there is no "normal" and the behaviourists who want to suggest a bad and good side to the spectrum, merely a judgement, are frelled to the max. Yea, I'm one of those guys who made a career in IT, preferring my interaction with the machine than making social work for me. Let history determine whether my contribution to the "world" had greater or lesser value.

 

[swbluto]

the person who thinks like others can communicate well with them

There's a larger question I've had that I don't know the answer to: It seems that communicating well with others requires an ability to effectively read their mental states and instinctively predict how they'll process/react to something. However, it seems to me that like-minded people tend to communicate well with each other where non-like-minded people tend not to, too, suggesting to me that people 'read each others mind' best when they're like their own.

So, that begs the question:

Is the aspie's difficulty in communicating with others related to a true diminished ability to read others' minds or more because their mind is 'different'? It seems to me that NTs tend to misread aspie's while aspies tend to read each other fine, so I'm inclined to think misunderstanding tends to arise because it's a difference of type, not really one of quantity (Of some ability).

However, I suppose there's been documentated studies in AS populations not passing the Sally-Anne test until several years later than their NT peers. (Autistic average age at time of the majority passing the test = 10; NT = 6)

So, perhaps it's a mixture of both. Maybe that's because a difference in quantity of ability also gives rise to a difference in type? I suppose! The ability to grow my breasts a mere 2 inches bigger would certainly change my apparent type, from male to female, lol.

 

[neptronix]

I don't even pay attention to him anymore. He will derail any thread he's involved in if you let him.

 

[arkmundi]

Is the aspie's difficulty in communicating with others related to a true diminished ability to read others' minds or more because their mind is 'different'? It seems to me that NTs tend to misread aspie's while aspies tend to read each other fine, so I'm inclined to think misunderstanding tends to arise because it's a difference of type, not really one of quantity (Of some ability).

No. I acknowledge the reality of Emotional Intelligence as distinct from mind. Those with high-IQ but low-EIQ (like myself and perhaps you as well) in the process of maturing, may conclude that emotional state doesn't exist or isn't important. There is definitely a play-to-fit imperative in the world at large. I was once turned down from an IT job I really wanted, because the CEO of the company was looking for high-IQ AND high-EIQ because he wanted good team players. He just simply said I was not a good fit. So-be-it! Laissez-faire! Live and let-live! And don't disparage yourself or others just because you happen to be different.

 

[swbluto]

I don't even pay attention to him anymore. He will derail any thread he's involved in if you let him.

Oh. OHH!!! I thought it was just me, lol. Guess I'm not reading enough threads, lol.

 

[swbluto]

Is the aspie's difficulty in communicating with others related to a true diminished ability to read others' minds or more because their mind is 'different'? It seems to me that NTs tend to misread aspie's while aspies tend to read each other fine, so I'm inclined to think misunderstanding tends to arise because it's a difference of type, not really one of quantity (Of some ability).

No. I acknowledge the reality of Emotional Intelligence as distinct from mind. Those with high-IQ but low-EIQ (like myself and perhaps you as well) in the process of maturing, may conclude that emotional state doesn't exist or isn't important. There is definitely a play-to-fit imperative in the world at large. I was once turned down from an IT job I really wanted, because the CEO of the company was looking for high-IQ AND high-EIQ because he wanted good team players. He just simply said I was not a good fit. So-be-it! Laissez-faire! Live and let-live! And don't disparage yourself or others just because you happen to be different.

Hehe, yep. It seems what one calls 'work' is really a matter of fitting into the corporate tribe of a company, not so much one of ability. Which is why personal interviews are so influential in the hiring decision making, but tend to be abysmal at predicting work performance. Because, choosing employees isn't really all about getting the workers with the best work performance possible, It's also about sharing the goodies with people you like, people like you.

Hah. That's funny.

People you like, people like you. What's weirder than the fact it's an anagram for sentences, is that it's also true.

(Btw, I've never seen the phrase 'play-to-fit' and google isn't turning much up. Can you verify that it means "Needs to play well with others to fit with the group"? It seems true and makes sense in the context, but I just want to make sure before I commit this phrase to memory.)

 

[arkmundi]

(Btw, I've never seen the phrase 'play-to-fit' and google isn't turning much up. Can you verify that it means "Needs to play with others to fit with the group"? It seems true and makes sense in the context, but I just want to make sure before I commit this phrase to memory.)

A team-player. Another life lesson, when I took a computer course to upgrade my skills. Project required and the class was broken down into teams. Underscoring that both technical and human competency was required for the grade. True to form, I did 90% of the work required as I was there just for the technical piece, mostly ignoring the others in the group, and didn't care that they were taking a free ride.

 

[swbluto]

(Btw, I've never seen the phrase 'play-to-fit' and google isn't turning much up. Can you verify that it means "Needs to play with others to fit with the group"? It seems true and makes sense in the context, but I just want to make sure before I commit this phrase to memory.)

A team-player. Another life lesson, when I took a computer course to upgrade my skills. Project required and the class was broken down into teams. Underscoring that both technical and human competency was required for the grade. True to form, I did 90% of the work required as I was there just for the technical piece, mostly ignoring the others in the group, and didn't care that they were taking a free ride.

That's how it works in the real world, doesn't it? The hard workers do 90% of the work while the gossips sit around chit-chatting and don't mind coasting off the backs of the workers.

 

[bowlofsalad]

This is merely my opinion. Some people are very eager to diagnose themselves, even more troubling is some people are eager to diagnose others. Some doctors do plenty of harm. A lot of people live their entire lives thinking they are broken in some way, were all different some how, that is wonderful. Tolerating those differences can sometimes be very challenging, but so long as we all can respect one another, things can be very good. With that said, I think it would be wise to cast out thoughts of being weird, it's great to be different, it means were doing something that often goes outside the box. They want to diagnose and prescribe something for you. They give you the placebo at best, poison at worst, and you give them buckets of your cash. Find things that make you happy and share that happiness with others. Thousands of candles can be lit from the same candle, and the life of the candle will not be shortened.